North Dakota, NCAA reach out-of-court settlement

[Zamboni Guy]

Since when do a few caucasians in an NCAA office building know the feelings, thoughts, and what is best for Native Americans. Can the NCAA be any more arrogant than that?

Now, after over 75 years of pridefully having the Fighting Sioux represent UND athletics, it is now "hostile and abusive"? Why was it used 75 years ago? Is this group of NCAA administration just more in tune with the Native Americans,...know their thoughts and feelings? Maybe the administration is just more intelligent than they were 75 years ago,....they know what is best for the Native Americans. Quite frankly can the NCAA be anymore offensive than that, to have the arrogance to pretend to know what is best for a culture of people? If I was a Native American, I would be greatly offended that some caucasians in an NCAA office building, that probably haven't even been in the state of North Dakota, much less the UND campus or Ralph Englestad Area, and most certainly not on a Indian Reservation,.....are making decisions regarding the Fighting Sioux nickname. Seems to be "abuse" of power by the NCAA, that is resulting in needless "hostility", some 75 years of tradition, after the fact.

This issue is nothing other than politics, driven by a handful of political activists that seem to get plenty of media attention. A few have suckered for the ploy, and unfortunately they have now become in a position of power, and are more than willing to "abuse" that power. It has absolutely nothing to do with the common Native Americans, that are probably more proud of the nickname than anyone.

If all of what you say is true then the University of North Dakota should have no problem getting the permission of the Sioux tribes of the state to agree to allow the University to continue using the nickname and imagery, which is all that the NCAA is asking the University of North Dakota to do and what should have been done as soon as the NCAA started this campaign against "hostile and abusive" mascots, but instead the University of North Dakota decided to go another route and try to fight the ruling in court rather than getting the support of the Sioux tribes that they are "honoring".

IF memory serves me correctly UND had done nothing wrong in this matter. THE NCAA is the one with the problem. More bleeding heart liberal spew. In the end UND will have to pay the tribes a portion of the proceeds on merchandise like they have to pay the NCAA. Hey, is the NCAA getting money for the sales of UND stuff, if so they are taking "dirty money".

All I am saying is that if the University of North Dakota gets the permission to use the nickname and imagery from the Sioux tribes of North Dakota then all of this is a non-issue and everyone can carry on without issue.

[Undercover Hockey Lover]

You know it would have saved EVERBODY involved millions had the NCAA just came with the permission from the tribes would solve the problem to start with as it did with FSU. Never saw ANYTHING about that as being acceptable to the NCAA in the GF Herald until UND STOOD UP to the NCAA.

Hey, I know SCSU is one of the holier than thou schools that give UND a hard time. Just wanted to point out the fact that SCSU's school colors are the same as the Nazi Party's. Red, Black and White, the Nazi's are considered offensive so then SCSU having those colors MUST support the Nazi Party. Then they are in violation of being offensive using those school colors. Makes perfect sense to me(tongue in cheek)....wonder if the NCAA will see it the same way?

[Gopher Blog]

Since when do a few caucasians in an NCAA office building know the feelings, thoughts, and what is best for Native Americans. Can the NCAA be any more arrogant than that?

Using your logic, couldn't the same thing be said of the administration at UND? I would bet that most of the leadership at UND are caucasians. Does that make them arrogant for telling the local tribes what is and what isn't "honoring" them?

[RLStars]

Quotes from an SI.com article: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/m ... index.html I think this needs to be read.

David Gipp, president of United Tribes Technical College in Bismarck, said leaders of the Standing Rock and Spirit Lake tribes, as well as other tribes and groups, are on record opposing the nickname.

"Allowing a three-year period to influence the tribes leaves open the door for UND and its agents to continue their meddling in the social and political affairs of tribal nations, causing untold damage in the lives of good people and families who only wish to have their ways and heritage respected," Gipp said in a statement


Ron His Horse Is Thunder, chairman of the Standing Rock Sioux tribe, said he believed University of North Dakota officials should use the three years to plan for changing the nickname and dropping the logo, rather than trying to coax the Standing Rock and Spirit Lake tribes into accepting them.

The settlement will bring pressure to bear on the governing councils of the two tribes from UND alumni and others who support the nickname, His Horse Is Thunder predicted.

"That takes the onus off UND, in terms of Wayne Stenehjem having to battle a court suit, and it takes pressure off the NCAA ... and it puts all the pressure on tribes and tribal councils to somehow change their minds," His Horse Is Thunder said.

Previously, groups of tribal members have been bused to UND at the expense of nickname supporters for some lobbying, the Standing Rock Sioux tribal chairman said.

"They've thrown a lot of money at individual tribal members, by taking them up to a hockey game and putting on a good face, and offering scholarship dollars ... to try to convince tribal members to go home and then lobby the tribal council to change it," His Horse Is Thunder said.

It doesn't look good for the school and its logo\nickname.

[Gopher Blog]

You know it would have saved EVERBODY involved millions had the NCAA just came with the permission from the tribes would solve the problem to start with as it did with FSU.

FSU had to get permission from the Seminole tribes there and they received it. Not all that difficult. UND could have done the same thing. Only difference is that it looked like UND was not going to get support from the local tribes so they fought it in another fashion. Like I said earlier, if it was truly about "honoring" the local people, then they would have listened to the wishes of the leadership of those people in the first place.

[Orange and Black]

So those in support of the Sioux name are in support of this??

"Fans of teams opposing schools such as the University North Dakota have proudly sported t-shirts with American Indians performing oral sex on the opposing team's animal mascot with the caption, "Blow Us. We Saw, They Sucked, We Came." Another shirt was debuted by UND fans the night of the grand opening of the Ralph Engelstad Arena in Grand Forks that portrayed an American Indian having sex with a bison with the caption "Buck the Bison Under."







Heres the entire article http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/american_i ... fmann.html

Some support the people are showing the Sioux eh?

[Undercover Hockey Lover]

I've seen a Leprachaun do a Navy Goat too. Big Deal....maybe the NCAA should go after these t-shirt makers for their cut too....

[tomASS]

You know it would have saved EVERBODY involved millions had the NCAA just came with the permission from the tribes would solve the problem to start with as it did with FSU. Never saw ANYTHING about that as being acceptable to the NCAA in the GF Herald until UND STOOD UP to the NCAA.

Hey, I know SCSU is one of the holier than thou schools that give UND a hard time. Just wanted to point out the fact that SCSU's school colors are the same as the Nazi Party's. Red, Black and White, the Nazi's are considered offensive so then SCSU having those colors MUST support the Nazi Party. Then they are in violation of being offensive using those school colors. Makes perfect sense to me(tongue in cheek)....wonder if the NCAA will see it the same way?

Very funny!:lol: the truth can be that way.

I think the tribes are just going to use the 3 years to leverage $$$$$$ from the state and school.

The use of the name and logo by UND has been far more honorable in all repsects than the how the casinos represent Indian tribes.

Maybe (tongue in cheeck again) UND call themselves the SLOTS or the BLACKJACKS then they can honor both Ralph and the Tribes

[Gopher Blog]

The use of the name and logo by UND has been far more honorable in all repsects than the how the casinos represent Indian tribes.

I am sure running their own major business and making a ton of money from it doesn't represent them well. Makes me wish I was a Native American.

[wisconsinprephockey]

The use of the name and logo by UND has been far more honorable in all repsects than the how the casinos represent Indian tribes.

Very true I dont know how a casino allows the tribe to "have their ways and heritage respected" (quoted from the article)

I am worried about how this statement may reflect on me and where it could take the conversation but, maybe if they are worried about their image, ways, and heritage they should start closer to home. Has anyone ever been on a reservation?? if you have you know what I'm talking about...

[theref]

The use of the name and logo by UND has been far more honorable in all repsects than the how the casinos represent Indian tribes.

Very true I dont know how a casino allows the tribe to "have their ways and heritage respected" (quoted from the article)

I am worried about how this statement may reflect on me and where it could take the conversation but, maybe if they are worried about their image, ways, and heritage they should start closer to home. Has anyone ever been on a reservation?? if you have you know what I'm talking about...

I live almost next to one, I know what you are talking about.......

[Knowlzee]

I grew up between two reservations,....went to school with, played sports with and against many Natives, some are good friends. However, with regard to reservations, and Native Americans,....the issue has little to do with them. Some are proud about the nickname, some probably are not, most probably could care less.

Again, the issue is about the NCAA KNOWING what a group of people think, and what is best for them,.....and taking advantage of their power to produce that result. What if what they think they KNOW is wrong? What if the wishes of a few political activists is not the true feelings of the Native Americans? Is that fair that a few loudmouths that show up only when the camera is present, can dictate the feelings of an entire culture of people? What if the majority of Native Americans are proud of the nickname, or don't care one way or another?

Why did they use the legal system? The issue has been around for at least 25 years. Protests by a few political activists can be ignored, so can letters to the editor. However, now that the political activists have gotten the NCAA involed, with their power (threats of no tournaments), it leaves no choice for UND or the state of North Dakota. Should an agency (NCAA) have the power to control a university or state?

With regard to getting "the permission to use the nickname and imagery from the Sioux tribes of North Dakota then all of this is a non-issue". This will never become a "non-issue", but if the political activists are not defeated,......UND may as well change the nickname to the "Custer's", or the "Cavalry",.....because they will no longer deserve the "Fighting Sioux" nickname.

[tomASS]

I grew up between two reservations,....went to school with, played sports with and against many Natives, some are good friends. However, with regard to reservations, and Native Americans,....the issue has little to do with them. Some are proud about the nickname, some probably are not, most probably could care less.

Again, the issue is about the NCAA KNOWING what a group of people think, and what is best for them,.....and taking advantage of their power to produce that result. What if what they think they KNOW is wrong? What if the wishes of a few political activists is not the true feelings of the Native Americans? Is that fair that a few loudmouths that show up only when the camera is present, can dictate the feelings of an entire culture of people? What if the majority of Native Americans are proud of the nickname, or don't care one way or another?

Why did they use the legal system? The issue has been around for at least 25 years. Protests by a few political activists can be ignored, so can letters to the editor. However, now that the political activists have gotten the NCAA involed, with their power (threats of no tournaments), it leaves no choice for UND or the state of North Dakota. Should an agency (NCAA) have the power to control a university or state?

With regard to getting "the permission to use the nickname and imagery from the Sioux tribes of North Dakota then all of this is a non-issue". This will never become a "non-issue", but if the political activists are not defeated,......UND may as well change the nickname to the "Custer's", or the "Cavalry",.....because they will no longer deserve the "Fighting Sioux" nickname.

100% agree with you! I just get tired of these "leaders" using the argument of the "ways and heritage "of the their culture being respected when they themselves have chosen to leave those ways.

NCAA - like too much government, they have too much power and influence. They should not have the power to dictate control of this nature. It should be outside their relm of influence.

[theref]

Personally, I just can't wait to see what happens when Ole Ralph's widow pulls all that funding from the college and boots them from the arena. I'm not saying that they should keep the name Fighting Sioux, I just think it will be an interesting situation. I wonder when PETA will start speaking out against the use of names like the Bears, the Bulldogs, the Badgers, or the Gophers. I suppose pretty soon everyteam will have to be named after inattimate objects. The Lightning, The chargers, The Fire, The Stars, just to give people an idea.

[Undercover Hockey Lover]

For goodness sakes don't mention The Fire.....we'll have those Bernie Buddie's all over the place then.

[Gopher Blog]

Should an agency (NCAA) have the power to control a university or state?

Ultimately, UND has had the control from the beginning. It has just been a matter of what repercussions they are willing to live with.

[Knowlzee]

Gopher Blog,....so what is the answer to the question? If the NCAA thinks Gophers is an inappropriate nickname and want them to change it, that's OK with you,.....if the reason is satisfactory?

Is school nicknames, really something they need to concern themselves with?

Regarding your mumbo jumbo response,.....so back in the early 1930's when UND was selecting a nickname, do you think possibly they were trying to select a nickname to be proud of,...something historical,.....a representative of the area,....something tough,.....and they selected the Fighting Sioux. Do you really think they thought that the Native Americans aren't going to like this nickname,...they are going to be mad,.....and embarassed,.....but lets be "hostile and abusive" anyway,....we will deal with the "repercussions" when they come up.

I am thinking it may have been more like the former rather than the latter, but I may be a little more optimistic than you.

Theref makes a good point. It is niave to think that if the NCAA is willing to meddle with the traditions of a few universities, that once that is accomplished, that they will not impose their power on other universities. Just beware of the study that comes out that states that animals have feelings, too. They just may USE it (as they have the Native Americans) to meddle with the Gopher traditions, as well. Selfishly, it just may be prudent for you to support UND in their fight to keep it's tradition, for future protection of your own traditions. Just a thought.

[tomASS]

Goldy Goph - I am a big Gopher homer. Always have been always will be.
But I too hope you don't view this as another sports/university rivalry - we versus them.

This is just plain wrong of the NCAA to delve into and legislate as they are doing.

The selection and use of the name was as proper then as it should be today. All the liberals argue that we should increase tolerence, except of course in those cases where they feel offended.

This decision should be left up to the groups involved and that does not include the authority the NCAA improperly inserted into the whole situation.

[Gopher Blog]

Gopher Blog,....so what is the answer to the question?

The answer is in UND's hands. Like I said, they can keep the nickname but they just won't get all the benefits of being an NCAA member. If they are that hung up on the name, then keep it. They'll just have to deal with the ramifications then. Pretty simple.

Honestly, I don't see a team nickname as being all that meaningful to my interpretation of the UM and its history. It doesn't diminish the school or its athletic programs one bit in my eyes. If UND changes their team name, how does it really change anything about their program or school? It doesn't.

[Gopher Blog]

This decision should be left up to the groups involved and that does not include the authority the NCAA improperly inserted into the whole situation.

It is up to the tribes and UND now. So that should make you happy, right?

[tomASS]

This decision should be left up to the groups involved and that does not include the authority the NCAA improperly inserted into the whole situation.

It is up to the tribes and UND now. So that should make you happy, right?

No because the NCAA has limited UND's options in dealing with the situation and have put unnecessary restrictions on the university.
They have directed the outcome from the beginning.

[Knowlzee]

Gopher Blog, it is pretty obvious that it is NOW "in UND's hands". Why,....because the NCAA got involved with something that is really not their business. The simple question, that you have failed to answer is,.....is this right? Is this something the NCAA should be involved with? If they decide the Gophers need to change their name, is that fine with you, and should the NCAA get involved with that?

A simple yes or no answer will suffice,.....yes, or no?

[Gopher Blog]

Gopher Blog, it is pretty obvious that it is NOW "in UND's hands". Why,....because the NCAA got involved with something that is really not their business. The simple question, that you have failed to answer is,.....is this right? Is this something the NCAA should be involved with? If they decide the Gophers need to change their name, is that fine with you, and should the NCAA get involved with that?

A simple yes or no answer will suffice,.....yes, or no?

The change of the mascot/nickname for my alma mater would not bother me. It doesn't change the quality of the athletic programs and it doesn't change the quality of the academic institution. I guess I look at the big picture. What matters is not a nickname. What matters are the quality of the programs/institution. UND's best attributes will still be the same without its current nickname.

UND had choices from the beginning. They just didn't like the fact that they saw the writing on the wall that they were not going to get support a la Florida State.

As for whether it is right to get involved, that is a matter of opinion. You have yours and I recognize it. But others will think differently and they have very compelling arguments.

[east hockey]

Gopher Blog, it is pretty obvious that it is NOW "in UND's hands". Why,....because the NCAA got involved with something that is really not their business. The simple question, that you have failed to answer is,.....is this right? Is this something the NCAA should be involved with? If they decide the Gophers need to change their name, is that fine with you, and should the NCAA get involved with that?

A simple yes or no answer will suffice,.....yes, or no?

The change of the mascot/nickname for my alma mater would not bother me. It doesn't change the quality of the athletic programs and it doesn't change the quality of the academic institution. I guess I look at the big picture. What matters is not a nickname. What matters are the quality of the programs/institution. UND's best attributes will still be the same without its current nickname.

UND had choices from the beginning. They just didn't like the fact that they saw the writing on the wall that they were not going to get support a la Florida State.

As for whether it is right to get involved, that is a matter of opinion. You have yours and I recognize it. But others will think differently and they have very compelling arguments.

If my alma mater was named after a rodent, I guess I wouldn't care either.

Lee

[tomASS]

If my alma mater was named after a rodent, I guess I wouldn't care either.

Lee

LOL

I'm a native of MN but not an alumni, ( Huskies of Univ of Southern ME) but I have always been somewhat envious of mascots like the wolverines, badgers, black bears etc.......it wasn't until an out-of stater like Lou Holtz put the scrawny gopher on a weight program and steriods that I could at least not be embarrassed what our main state university ( univeristy of MN Twin Cities as my duaghter refers to it) had as a symbol of pride(?).

What were our state founding fathers thinking of???? Oh well- maybe a PETA movement would be a hidden godsend for us?

By the way I heard some Greek ancestors of Spartans are getting the NCAA involved with regard to MI State becasue they didn't seek approval nor does the mascot reflect on their ways and culture. What was MI State thinking?? Watch out USC

Did anyone else hear that??

And what about the Zips of Akron?? The NCAA should not allow any mascots that just don't make sense in the whole scheme of things.
It's an insult to widgets everywhere.