HShockeywatcher wrote:I think of it as two ways to look at it:
1. Yes, Govs is right. You could've always done something differently to cause you to win.
2. You shouldn't have had to. If you lose a close one and there was a bad call that "cost" you the game, that's all that should matter. What you did previously in the game shouldn't matter, just what's happening now.
All in all, I've seen games where calls changed the result of the game. I can't recall one where the refs necessarily made one team win or lose, but that they changed what the final score would've been. That being said, I think games are impacted, but not seasons. You may lose a game here and there, but you will not go from top in state to bottom of your conference because of the refs.
And then we had to hear from the official HS hockey thread ender
HShockeywatcher wrote:I think of it as two ways to look at it:
1. Yes, Govs is right. You could've always done something differently to cause you to win.
2. You shouldn't have had to. If you lose a close one and there was a bad call that "cost" you the game, that's all that should matter. What you did previously in the game shouldn't matter, just what's happening now.
All in all, I've seen games where calls changed the result of the game. I can't recall one where the refs necessarily made one team win or lose, but that they changed what the final score would've been. That being said, I think games are impacted, but not seasons. You may lose a game here and there, but you will not go from top in state to bottom of your conference because of the refs.
And then we had to hear from the official HS hockey thread ender
BIAFP wrote:The majority of good tenured officials give up the game for the very reasons you good folks are venting about. There is way too much emphasis on the officials and not enough on the conduct of the athletes and coaches. I have yet to see a referee score a goal If you think it so easy........lace em up and give it a try
I agree that it is a thankless job, but so is coaching.
I think Govs is being supportive by saying control what you can, and don't worry about the rest, so he's not bashing refs at all. IMO.
As for my comments.. I stand by them, if you can't keep up it's time to go!
It's a requirement of the job.
Definitely a thankless job, but I'd definitely prefer reffing hockey to being a customer service rep that works for a place with quality problems...THAT'S got to be miserable AND thankless.
BIAFP wrote:The majority of good tenured officials give up the game for the very reasons you good folks are venting about. There is way too much emphasis on the officials and not enough on the conduct of the athletes and coaches. I have yet to see a referee score a goal If you think it so easy........lace em up and give it a try
The zebra stripes are sooooooo much easier to blame than little Johnny for his inability to finish on any of six scoring opportunities he had. You know we all treat referees as individuals without souls or feelings. It is easier that way to make them the scapegoat for what went wrong with the game.
I do agree with you Govs (which now I guess puts me in poor company based on a previous post by thread-stopper). Players and coaches have far more opportunities to control the outcome of the game than the referee does
I never referee hockey, but have been very involved in all aspects of refereeing another sport for 30+ years. All I ever ask of officials in my sport is that they know the rules, be in the proper spot to apply the rules, give me their best effort, and remember the game is for the kids and not them to be the center of attention (which is a bigger problem in my sport than what I have ever seen in hockey)
Undercover Hockey Lover wrote:Definitely a thankless job, but I'd definitely prefer reffing hockey to being a customer service rep that works for a place with quality problems...THAT'S got to be miserable AND thankless.
So what I want to know, has your blatant sucking up to hockey moms via your signature gotten you any eharmony private messages???
Lee and Mitch - your business model (lol- sorry couldn't resist) could include a hockey singles dating service ?? Or maybe someone can just hook him up
I go to a lot of games over the winter and my thought is that there must be a rule that a game isn't official until someone in the crowd yells about a missed or bad call.
Because of the speed of the game, officiating a hockey game is a difficult art and they are bound to miss a call here and there. Two things have to be called, a scoring chance that's thwarted by an illegal act and anything that could cause or actually does cause injury that's illegal. The officials have to toe a fine line between 'letting them play' and making sure the game doesn't get out of hand.
I'm sure there are incompetent officials out there, I've seen icing called when a player threw it back down to his own end, but we're not dealing with pro or even college hockey here. Many of the guys at this level are learning just like the players. The players will have to play through bad calls at every level, it's part of the game, and the sooner they can learn to shake it off like a bad bounce the better.
Can't Never Tried wrote:
As for my comments.. I stand by them, if you can't keep up it's time to go!
It's a requirement of the job.
I remember a referee we had frequently in D6 - we had nick names for him such as Mario or Krispy Creme. He had trouble keeping up with the play of squirts. His weight didn't seem to help his bad knees which pained even me to watch him try to skate.
He did have a habit, a not very subtle one, of scoping the stands for hockey moms.......Undercover was this you??? (sorry)
BIAFP wrote:The majority of good tenured officials give up the game for the very reasons you good folks are venting about. There is way too much emphasis on the officials and not enough on the conduct of the athletes and coaches. I have yet to see a referee score a goal If you think it so easy........lace em up and give it a try
The zebra stripes are sooooooo much easier to blame than little Johnny for his inability to finish on any of six scoring opportunities he had. You know we all treat referees as individuals without souls or feelings. It is easier that way to make them the scapegoat for what went wrong with the game.
I do agree with you Govs (which now I guess puts me in poor company based on a previous post by thread-stopper). Players and coaches have far more opportunities to control the outcome of the game than the referee does
I never referee hockey, but have been very involved in all aspects of refereeing another sport for 30+ years. All I ever ask of officials in my sport is that they know the rules, be in the proper spot to apply the rules, give me their best effort, and remember the game is for the kids and not them to be the center of attention (which is a bigger problem in my sport than what I have ever seen in hockey)
Just have to comment on the point of the ref becoming bigger than game..in his mind...we have a guy in Buffalo who looks like a US Figure skater everytime he makes a call. He normally Ice Dances over to the box and over exagerates his hand signals as he talks to the player about what he did wrong...my god it is hilarious...unfortunately, it is also an awful experience for the kids.
i read the first few posts so im sorry if this is a repeat but i know come section time coaches can select who they do NOT want to ref. they dont really get to pick who they want but they can vote to not have someone ref their game. if that helps at all..
some great posts, some that make you think. Looks like Govs93 has guided some of the folks down the path of righteousness and taken the high road. I still think there is considerable bias by officiating crews througout the State. I know I am traveling the low road on this one but we all know there is incompetance...but what I am thinking is just cheating plain and simple.
In hockey, a 2 minute power play that converts 1 of every 4 times in a good game where 3 or 4 goals wins...wow what power these officials have. That means if a 'biased' ref calls 8 penalties on one club and 2 on the other...that's a six power play advantage...or 1.5 goals on average. Huge control for the zeebs...no wonder no one says anything to them...you're at their mercy.
In Basketball HS Coaches 'work' the Officials to try and gain an advantage...In football coaches scream at referees and usually will have the side judge in their back pocket by half time. However, in Hockey officials seem to have a Holier than now attitude...any backlash from a coach or player is sure to be penalized further.
My long winded point is...Differences in Opinion occur and at least in Hockey yelling about them is not tolerated. The officials do own a stake in the outcome of the game and many without supervision are biased and take joy in making one team or another suffer. The HS League should be thinnking of ways to take this control of the outcome away from the officials and not only have training but rules about working more than one time at each school.
I know it is a supply and demand thing but we need more of the ex HS hockey players refereeing and less of the guys who need the 70 bucks to pay rent.
HOFam'r wrote:
Just have to comment on the point of the ref becoming bigger than game..in his mind...we have a guy in Buffalo who looks like a US Figure skater everytime he makes a call. He normally Ice Dances over to the box and over exagerates his hand signals as he talks to the player about what he did wrong...my god it is hilarious...unfortunately, it is also an awful experience for the kids.
tomASS wrote:So what I want to know, has your blatant sucking up to hockey moms via your signature gotten you any eharmony private messages???
Lee and Mitch - your business model (lol- sorry couldn't resist) could include a hockey singles dating service ?? Or maybe someone can just hook him up
No need for a hook-up just stating a trueism ...I think she'd get a little steamed if you know what I mean. I think the old saying goes: "There's no harm in looking at the menu as long as you don't order." It is one of the many reasons that makes going to the rink SOOOO great!! (especially on those early Sunday mornings with a "splitting headache")
HOFam'r wrote:
Just have to comment on the point of the ref becoming bigger than game..in his mind...we have a guy in Buffalo who looks like a US Figure skater everytime he makes a call. He normally Ice Dances over to the box and over exagerates his hand signals as he talks to the player about what he did wrong...my god it is hilarious...unfortunately, it is also an awful experience for the kids.
ask somebody in southern mn about ethan anderson...i've heard he isnt aloud to ref in the big 9 anymore, and he refs a lot of waseca's home games. he is the coach's brother...
HOFam'r wrote:some great posts, some that make you think. Looks like Govs93 has guided some of the folks down the path of righteousness and taken the high road. I still think there is considerable bias by officiating crews througout the State. I know I am traveling the low road on this one but we all know there is incompetance...but what I am thinking is just cheating plain and simple.
In hockey, a 2 minute power play that converts 1 of every 4 times in a good game where 3 or 4 goals wins...wow what power these officials have. That means if a 'biased' ref calls 8 penalties on one club and 2 on the other...that's a six power play advantage...or 1.5 goals on average. Huge control for the zeebs...no wonder no one says anything to them...you're at their mercy.
In Basketball HS Coaches 'work' the Officials to try and gain an advantage...In football coaches scream at referees and usually will have the side judge in their back pocket by half time. However, in Hockey officials seem to have a Holier than now attitude...any backlash from a coach or player is sure to be penalized further.
My long winded point is...Differences in Opinion occur and at least in Hockey yelling about them is not tolerated. The officials do own a stake in the outcome of the game and many without supervision are biased and take joy in making one team or another suffer. The HS League should be thinnking of ways to take this control of the outcome away from the officials and not only have training but rules about working more than one time at each school.
I know it is a supply and demand thing but we need more of the ex HS hockey players refereeing and less of the guys who need the 70 bucks to pay rent.
I'm sure we could get more of those ex players if they didn't know about how badly refs get treated first hand from how they treated them.
HOFam'r wrote:some great posts, some that make you think. Looks like Govs93 has guided some of the folks down the path of righteousness and taken the high road. I still think there is considerable bias by officiating crews througout the State. I know I am traveling the low road on this one but we all know there is incompetance...but what I am thinking is just cheating plain and simple.
In hockey, a 2 minute power play that converts 1 of every 4 times in a good game where 3 or 4 goals wins...wow what power these officials have. That means if a 'biased' ref calls 8 penalties on one club and 2 on the other...that's a six power play advantage...or 1.5 goals on average. Huge control for the zeebs...no wonder no one says anything to them...you're at their mercy.
In Basketball HS Coaches 'work' the Officials to try and gain an advantage...In football coaches scream at referees and usually will have the side judge in their back pocket by half time. However, in Hockey officials seem to have a Holier than now attitude...any backlash from a coach or player is sure to be penalized further.
My long winded point is...Differences in Opinion occur and at least in Hockey yelling about them is not tolerated. The officials do own a stake in the outcome of the game and many without supervision are biased and take joy in making one team or another suffer. The HS League should be thinnking of ways to take this control of the outcome away from the officials and not only have training but rules about working more than one time at each school.
I know it is a supply and demand thing but we need more of the ex HS hockey players refereeing and less of the guys who need the 70 bucks to pay rent.
I'm sure we could get more of those ex players if they didn't know about how badly refs get treated first hand from how they treated them.
Coming from an ex-player's perspective, ref's no matter if you agree with the call or not don't win or loose a game. Some are good, some are not, and you usually have an idea of which is who and who is which. The only thing that really bugs me, and I'm sure most players agree, is an inconsistant ref. If you're going to let them play, let them play. If you're making a lot of interference calls, don't let one go at the end of the game. I'm all for judgment calls, but make sure they're consistent.
HOFam'r wrote:some great posts, some that make you think. Looks like Govs93 has guided some of the folks down the path of righteousness and taken the high road. I still think there is considerable bias by officiating crews througout the State. I know I am traveling the low road on this one but we all know there is incompetance...but what I am thinking is just cheating plain and simple.
In hockey, a 2 minute power play that converts 1 of every 4 times in a good game where 3 or 4 goals wins...wow what power these officials have. That means if a 'biased' ref calls 8 penalties on one club and 2 on the other...that's a six power play advantage...or 1.5 goals on average. Huge control for the zeebs...no wonder no one says anything to them...you're at their mercy.
In Basketball HS Coaches 'work' the Officials to try and gain an advantage...In football coaches scream at referees and usually will have the side judge in their back pocket by half time. However, in Hockey officials seem to have a Holier than now attitude...any backlash from a coach or player is sure to be penalized further.
My long winded point is...Differences in Opinion occur and at least in Hockey yelling about them is not tolerated. The officials do own a stake in the outcome of the game and many without supervision are biased and take joy in making one team or another suffer. The HS League should be thinnking of ways to take this control of the outcome away from the officials and not only have training but rules about working more than one time at each school.
I know it is a supply and demand thing but we need more of the ex HS hockey players refereeing and less of the guys who need the 70 bucks to pay rent.
I'm sure we could get more of those ex players if they didn't know about how badly refs get treated first hand from how they treated them.
Coming from an ex-player's perspective, ref's, no matter if you agree with the call or not, don't win or loose a game. Some refs are good, some are not, and you usually have an idea of which is who and who is which. The only thing that really bugs me, and I'm sure most players agree, is an inconsistent ref. If you're going to let them play, let them play. If you're making a lot of interference calls, don't let one go at the end of the game. I'm all for judgment calls, but make sure they're consistent.
BIAFP wrote:The majority of good tenured officials give up the game for the very reasons you good folks are venting about. There is way too much emphasis on the officials and not enough on the conduct of the athletes and coaches. I have yet to see a referee score a goal If you think it so easy........lace em up and give it a try
Most people understand and agree with that but we also need to put more emphasis on competence. Things have swung too far the other way now.
We dont want an environmet where officials in any sport have free ride or dont feel accountable to hustle, know the rules and be in positon to make the right call.
Its important. More important than a lot of officialls act like it is. That needs to be addressed along with the bad apple parents, fans and coaches.
HOFam'r wrote:I have watched alot of sports in my day and the officiating in all seems to really impact the game. I wonder in the rhelm of things how many home town refs have beaten good teams and sent kids who should have won home early?
I watched a football game this season where it appeared the Ref kept throwing flags for holding on every play of more then 10 yards...it got to be fairly blatent.
I really think because of the arrangement coaches can have with officials and because of the way officiating associations are set up and compete against one another that in Hockey especially...games are impacted by home town officials.
What does everyone else think? Do you think I am a whiner? Do you think most refs are objective and fair? Pipe in...let me have it!
Dude........are you STILL whining about Buffalo losing both games in the Turkey Trot?
I thought we worked this out?
...I think she'd get a little steamed if you know what I mean. 
It is one of the many reasons that makes going to the rink SOOOO great!! (especially on those early Sunday mornings with a "splitting headache") 
