Twins 29-29, All Square & Ready To Go On A Tear

SB24 · Post by **SB24** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:09 pm

Forgive me please for not reading through this entire thread, but maybe this has already been discussed. On Cold Pizza this morning they were throwing around the idea of a trade with the Mets for Reyes...probably not real likely, but wouldn't that put the twins in the same situation as far as a huge contract in a couple years? I don't know what sort of contract Reyes has now, but if its two or three more years, it might be ok. Don't get me wrong, i'd love to have Reyes, but i can't see how they'd resign him when the time came.

Govs93 · Post by **Govs93** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:58 am

EREmpireStrikesBack wrote:First off, trading Garza for Young was a good deal. Kind of hurts to lose Bartlett and his D, but Harris adds a little pop and will be solid at short. Young gives us 2 monster arms in the OF and he will be a great hitter in years to come. Garza has shown flashes, but has never been consistent. I like the trade.

As far as Santana goes, there is no way we are getting Jose Reyes, David Wright or anyone of that caliber. It is going to have to be young up and comers and prospects. I think Santana will go to the Yankees or Boston. From the Yankees we'll get Ian Kennedy/Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and some prospects. Red Sox will be Coco, Bucholtz/Lester and prospects. I don't see them giving up Ellsbury, but it'd be cool if we could get him. Personally I think the Yankees looks sweeter, unless we can get Ellsbury out of the Sox. The Mets are offering Milledge, Pelfrey and Humber, but Pelfrey & Humber struggled last year and don't have the hype they once did.

Either way, the Twins NEED to trade Santana before the season starts. His value will never be higher. If the season starts, any of those prospects could light it up and all of a sudden none of the teams are in a major need for Santana and won't give up the guys who are producing for them. Plus the risk of injury.

Look at the Yankee Guy try to get Bill Smith (who I'm sure reads the bored based on the advise passed down from T.R.) to deal Johan to NY over Boston. Listen up, ERE... Unless they're willing to give up Cano and Hughes or Cabrera, we're not interested.

Bring in Ellsbury, Bucholz and Lester. The only problem I see with that is all of the chicks swooning over me in this town will turn their attention toward Ellsbury. I'm willing to put up with it for the good of the team.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:04 am

I think that as this progresses, the offers will get better.

I think that the "unwilling to part with" talk will become less and less.

Sanatana is not just another pitcher. Over the last few years he has been by far the best in the game.

Sure, everybody knows that the Twins cant keep him. But everybody also knows that they will for one more year( or a part of one) if they dont get quality in return.

I wouldnt be too itchy if I were Smith.

George Blanda · Post by **George Blanda** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:14 am

SB24 wrote:Forgive me please for not reading through this entire thread, but maybe this has already been discussed. On Cold Pizza this morning they were throwing around the idea of a trade with the Mets for Reyes...probably not real likely, but wouldn't that put the twins in the same situation as far as a huge contract in a couple years? I don't know what sort of contract Reyes has now, but if its two or three more years, it might be ok. Don't get me wrong, i'd love to have Reyes, but i can't see how they'd resign him when the time came.

He is currently signed to the Mets with a four-year, $23.25 million contract that will run through the 2010 season with a team option for the 2011 season.

Irishmans Shanty · Post by **Irishmans Shanty** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:17 am

The Yankees will come around and pony up whatever Smith wants, NY can't afford to let Santana end up in Boston, the Twins have all the leverage.

Worse comes to worse, Santana spends another year in Minnesota and leads a staff and a team that still has Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, a good bullpen, and a potential emerging star in Young. Who knows, Craig Monroe could hit 28 HR's and Kubel could connect for 25 as a DH.

Now this would be a dream come true.

Govs93 · Post by **Govs93** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:20 am

I heard a theory on ESPN yesterday (I think it was ESPN anyway) that the Red Sox are just playing the trade game to force the Yanks to up the ante and that they may not really be willing to take Santana on.

In a way, it almost makes sense - if they got him, their rotation would be:

Santana
Beckett
Dice-K
Schilling
Buchholz/Lester/Wakefield

What is Santana really going to add to what they've already got? Figure that 5th starter spot will win 15 games (last season those 3 combined for 24 wins) - Santana may win 20? Is it worth $25m per year to pick up an extra 5 wins? Maybe.

It's a theory. I don't know if I really buy it, but it may be something to consider. If there is any validity to it, it's certainly good news for the Twins. You won't get a better ransom than you will when the Sox and Yanks are bidding against each other.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:09 am

No doubt the Yankees need pitching more than the Red Sox but they would love to have Santana and maybe just as important, dont want the Yankees to have him.

A trade with the Sox might be more doable.

dangla. · Post by **dangla.** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:43 pm

ide rather see santana go to the red sox then the yankees. if they do trade him im sure they wont trade him for any power hitters

EREmpireStrikesBack · Post by **EREmpireStrikesBack** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:54 pm

Cano won't get traded. Ellsbury won't get traded. That's just like the Reyes rumor, it isn't going to happen.

It will be Melky, Kennedy/Hughes and some other minor leaguers. It fills holes and makes the most sense.

Do you really want Coco, Lester & minor leaguers? If so, I'd love to trade with you next year in fantasy baseball. If they can get the Yankees to do the above, they are in a much better situation.

Irishmans Shanty · Post by **Irishmans Shanty** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:13 pm

With Santana getting all the attention it has been easy to overlook some of the other business. Boy I'd like to see Carlos Silva sign with somebody in the Central. I'd really like to see the Twins get a half a dozen shots at him this year and beyond.

dangla. · Post by **dangla.** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:14 pm

EREmpireStrikesBack wrote:
Do you really want Coco, Lester & minor leaguers? If so, I'd love to trade with you next year in fantasy baseball. If they can get the Yankees to do the above, they are in a much better situation.

I just dont want to see the Yankees win there 27th world series. I dont want Coco, Lester and some minor leaguers as much as you do either. I actually hope Johan stays

EREmpireStrikesBack · Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:56 pm

Jim Caple
ESPN.com

Will the last superstar to leave Minnesota kindly drop a few dollars in the collection plate on your way out to help pay for the new stadium?

The Timberwolves traded Kevin Garnett in the summer. Center fielder Torii Hunter signed with the Angels last week. And now it looks like the Twins will trade two-time Cy Young winner Johan Santana. (Waiting to see whether the Yankees or Red Sox get Santana is like waiting to see whether your favorite and most dependable co-worker is hired away by Halliburton or Wal-Mart.) Next thing you know, Adrian Peterson will tear his remaining ligaments, Joe Mauer will permanently shave his sideburns and Garrison Keillor will get laryngitis.

Watching so many beloved athletes leave is especially cruel for Minnesotans, who were forced to bail out the Target Center owners four years after the arena opened and recently agreed to pay for a $522 million stadium for the Twins. A new stadium was necessary, taxpayers were told repeatedly for a decade, because the Twins couldn't be competitive in the Metrodome, where they have won two World Series and also have won the AL Central four times in the past six seasons.

Building a new ballpark (which despite a half-billion-dollar price tag won't even include a retractable roof) is supposedly what would enable the Twins to keep star players such as Hunter and Santana. Well, maybe not.

Minnesota taxpayers are footing the bill for a $522 million stadium, but they probably won't get to watch Johan Santana pitch there.
That's because the Twins are still owned by the Pohlads, who approach team ownership differently than say, Mark Cuban. Carl Pohlad is a billionaire banker who pinches his coins so often he could be sued for sexual harassment by Susan B. Anthony. Pohlad got his start by delivering foreclosure notices to farmers in the Depression (hey, someone had to do it), so if Twins fans are disappointed that their half-billion dollar subsidy isn't sufficient to keep Hunter and Santana, that's just tough. Given that Pohlad offered the team up for contraction to pocket even more loot a couple of years ago, fans should consider themselves lucky he doesn't also trade Mauer and Justin Morneau as well, then instruct Smithers to release the hounds during "Take Me Out to the Ballgame."

New general manager Bill Smith -- a good, knowledgeable baseball man -- is therefore forced to make the best of the situation. Does he risk $130 million to $150 million over six years on a great, hard-working pitcher who has been very durable but who nonetheless could fall into a manhole? Or does he trade a pitcher at peak value in exchange for promising prospects who are far cheaper and may prove to be quite effective in the long run (or maybe not).

After 20-plus years of Pohlad ownership, do Twins fans really have to ask?

The thing is, the right trade could make sense. There certainly is precedent in Minnesota. In 1989, the Twins traded Frank Viola for five pitchers, including two, Kevin Tapani and Rick Aguilera, who were instrumental in helping them win the World Series two years later. In 1998, they traded Chuck Knoblauch for Eric Milton and Cristian Guzman, and both had some very good seasons in Minnesota and helped lift the Twins out of the quagmire that was the mid to late '90s.

So trading Santana could work out in the long run, but it's still an uncomfortable choice. And if Joba Chamberlain, Jacoby Ellsbury and Clay Buchholz truly are untouchable, the choice becomes easier: No.

If no one overwhelms Smith with a trade, the Twins should pursue a third option. Keep Santana for next season and see what happens. If they do and Francisco Liriano is healthy and dominant again, the Twins could very well win the World Series next season, particularly if the newly acquired Delmon Young fulfills his potential. Sure, that might cost the Twins some promising trade opportunities. But trying to win it all is a worthy goal and no less risky than hoping young prospects turn into stars. Sometimes they do. Often, they don't. (The mere mention of Rich Becker's name still causes Twins fans to flinch uncontrollably.)

Of course, the real solution is for Pohlad to simply open up the wallet and thank loyal fans for building the stadium by re-signing the best pitcher in baseball. Sure, it's a lot of money, but not quite so much when you bear in mind the county is spending hundreds of millions on a new stadium that will greatly increase ownership profits.

The most important thing about a new ballpark, after all, is having a team worth watching when it opens.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:37 pm

I never could get behind the "Spend more money on salaries than you realise in revenue" approach to business.

Does ESPN pay Chris Berman and Kenny Mane , etc etc more than they get in revenue?

Do you think Steinbrenner pays more in Yankee salaries than he takes in? No way.

Why should Pohlad?

tomASS · Post by **tomASS** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:20 pm

Irishmans Shanty wrote:With Santana getting all the attention it has been easy to overlook some of the other business. Boy I'd like to see Carlos Silva sign with somebody in the Central. I'd really like to see the Twins get a half a dozen shots at him this year and beyond.

very nice! too funny and such a great thought...but these are our Twins, he would probably pitch a perfect game against us

grindiangrad-80 · Post by **grindiangrad-80** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:16 pm

Sounds like a deal with the Yanks is getting closer.
Cabrera and Hughes (3rd guy is still the question)
I think it will happen.
Story from SI.com

pacman · Post by **pacman** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:37 pm

Santana for Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy and Melky Cabrera. we need starting pitching

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:10 pm

I dunno boys.

Why do we need Melky when we have Denard (whatshisname)

We get more young pitchers. Why?

The Garza for Young deal was well concieved. Trade young pitching(which you have) for young hitting(which you dont have).

Now we are thinking of trading Santana for young pitchers. They were loaded with young pitchers before and where did it get them?

Lets play fill in the blanks with Mr Smith.
We need to get guys in here who can ____ the ________ ball.

Neutron 14 · Post by **Neutron 14** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:26 pm

Agreed packerboy. Melky and a Hughes don't really inspire me. A Yankee deadline is as threatening as Punto's bat. I do like Ellsbury. A bunch. Send Denard whatshisname with Santana to Bosox For Ellsbury and a prospect. See if you can get some cash too...

EREmpireStrikesBack · Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:32 pm

Neutron 14 wrote:Agreed packerboy. Melky and a Hughes don't really inspire me. A Yankee deadline is as threatening as Punto's bat. I do like Ellsbury. A bunch. Send Denard whatshisname with Santana to Bosox For Ellsbury and a prospect. See if you can get some cash too...

That is weak. They need to get the BoSox to give up Ellsbury & Lester, nothing less. Jacoby looks like he'll be good, but it's no guarantee. The offer you are suggesting sounds an AWFUL lot like the Randy Moss deal. TWill looked good, but we know how much that panned out.

Govs93 · Post by **Govs93** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:35 pm

packerboy wrote:I dunno boys.

Why do we need Melky when we have Denard (whatshisname)

We get more young pitchers. Why?

The Garza for Young deal was well concieved. Trade young pitching(which you have) for young hitting(which you dont have).

Now we are thinking of trading Santana for young pitchers. They were loaded with young pitchers before and where did it get them?

Lets play fill in the blanks with Mr Smith.
We need to get guys in here who can ____ the ________ ball.

Ah! But what if they're not done?! What if they land Hughes/Kennedy, then decide to package a deal with Nathan and one of Hughes/Kennedy/Baker/Slowey for a bat? Maybe Bill Smith is thinking a couple of moves down the road?!?! Huh?! HUH?!?!?!

MAYBE Nathan and Hughes go to Florida for Miguel Cabrera?! And Santa may come ho-ho-hoing his fat ass down my chimney in 3 weeks.

I SMELL PENNANT!!!! IT'S LIKE A.... theory.

Neutron 14 · Post by **Neutron 14** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:43 pm

Govs93 wrote:IT'S LIKE A.... thoery.

Whats a thoery?

Govs93 · Post by **Govs93** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:44 pm

Neutron 14 wrote:
Govs93 wrote:IT'S LIKE A.... theory.
Whats a thoery?

Something you post on a bored.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:56 pm

It seems to me that with a pitcher of Santana's status on the table, these other teams are being awfully cheap.

There is no way that the Moonlight Graham kid from Boston should be "untouchable".

If the Yankees get Santana, they are immediately transformed. The Red Sox dont need Santana as much as the Yanks but they cant let George have him.

Is Santana's value greater part way into the season?

Irishmans Shanty · Post by **Irishmans Shanty** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:01 pm

Hopefully the imminent trade of Santana yields better results than the Garnett one.

Govs93 · Post by **Govs93** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:04 pm

packerboy wrote:Is Santana's value greater part way into the season?

My inclination is to say no, because if the Twins are out of the race and start shopping him, it'll reek of desperation and other teams will know that. It would truly be at the point of just getting something for him if it goes down mid-season.

The other thing I read is that Johan won't waive the no-trade clause during the season. If that's true, they'll really be stuck with him. It would make sense for him to do that though - play out you season season here, then hit the open market next season? Sheesh... he could be in for just a little less than A-Rod money if he does (barring injury) with the inflated pitcher salaries over the last few years.