Wally's Debacle

[hiptzech]

Did Wally Blow it with his LPH article entitled They Stole My Ice?

[tomASS]

Did Wally Blow it with his LPH article entitled They Stole My Ice?

I think he blew it and shows how far removed he had become from day to day association activities, but I wouldn't demand a retraction. If he doesn't have sense enough to make it on his own free will then he is showing his true character.

[elliott70]

A rope, a tree,
hang (figuratively) the SOB.

[goldy313]

I want to know where or when Public places became the realm of a Private entity. We all pay taxes, all pay user fees if we use the facility, why does one group get the benefit over the other? We've had ice time booked 3 months in advance get bumped the night before so a bantam team could have practice, I understand a rescheduled game, but youth hockey has no more a right to most of these facilities than a figure skating club, senior league, or even public skating. They just think they do.

I don't know the particulars of the Burnsville ice arena and who paid for it, but I'll bet it wasn't Apple Valley youth hockey.

[oldtimer64]

I want to know where or when Public places became the realm of a Private entity. We all pay taxes, all pay user fees if we use the facility, why does one group get the benefit over the other? We've had ice time booked 3 months in advance get bumped the night before so a bantam team could have practice, I understand a rescheduled game, but youth hockey has no more a right to most of these facilities than a figure skating club, senior league, or even public skating. They just think they do.

I don't know the particulars of the Burnsville ice arena and who paid for it, but I'll bet it wasn't Apple Valley youth hockey.

Foot in mouth goldy313

you really don't get it!

[goldy313]

Then explain to me why AVYHA should get preferetial treatment at a public facility? All taxpayers pay to run the place, I doubt there's an arena in the state turning a profit for their city. The sense of entitlement many youth hockey associations feel they have is sickening.

I don't think LPH was the best forum for Wally to use for his argument, but I'd bet his opinion reflects a huge segment of arena users. I'd also bet it's a problem in many communities.

[oldtimer64]

Then explain to me why AVYHA should get preferetial treatment at a public facility? All taxpayers pay to run the place, I doubt there's an arena in the state turning a profit for their city. The sense of entitlement many youth hockey associations feel they have is sickening.

I don't think LPH was the best forum for Wally to use for his argument, but I'd bet his opinion reflects a huge segment of arena users. I'd also bet it's a problem in many communities.

Do you think they built ice arena's anywhere just to build them or did they build them with hockey in mind? I'm not bashing figure skating or men's leagues (i still play mens league) but what i'am saying is they built these rinks for the most part with hockey in mind (youth hockey). NOT Men's league or Figure Skating!!

[shoot to thrill]

Oldtimer,

In actuality, Burnsville added a 2nd rink primarily thinking about figure skating. Their year round commitment made it a feasable idea. Rinks aren't just built for hockey and if they were they'd lose a ton of money. That's one of the reasons why it makes sense to let the city figure out the best way to market, fill and use the rink to get the best return for all the taxpayers ESPECIALLY the ones who never set foot in the rink.

One of the reasons Apple Valley can't get approval for another rink (even though they have 2 youth hockey associations and 2 high school teams) is that hockey alone can't support a rink. They close rinks in AV during the summer because they can't sell enough ice with just hockey people.

Burnsville has both rinks running year round because they have long term commitments from figure skating and several other sources to buy icetime including the Burnsville hockey association and high school. Interestingly enough, Apple Valley doesn't bug them for ice time from March through September.

[goldy313]

Thanks for avoiding the question oldtimer64.

Most rinks weren't built for youth hockey, most rinks were built for high school hockey, figure skating, and public use. Youth hockey was primarily an outdoor activity until 20 years or so ago. I'd figure you'd know that if you're old enough to play senior hockey.

I'll also let you in on a dirty little secret. Ice arenas built for youth hockey are a bad use of public money. Youth hockey in and of itself can't pay for an arena. Programs like the Mighty Ducks grants are great on the surface but in reality end up costing the community and in the long run won't benefit youth hockey. The grant gave money to communities to build indoor rinks, often some money was paid for by youth hockey. The problem comes after the rink is built, there is no money to pay to run the rink. Youth hockey needs to pay their bill by using more and more ice thereby charging more and more money to players. That causes less and less players to continue playing which in turn causes youth hockey to raise their rates. It's a vicious spiral and hockey in many communities is suffering. The only way out is to get other groups to use the ice or raise taxes - a third is to raise rates on other facilities like golf courses to offset the ice arenas losses but that leads to other issues. Obviously getting more people to use your ice is the best way. This of course creates friction with youth hockey who thinks they are entitled to whatever they want. There's a reason no youth hockey association owns its own rink in and of itself.

I've worked in an arena for more than 15 years now, creatively using the facility is the only way to survive. Youth hockey alone isn't going to pay for an arena. Unfortunatly most communities would never approve af such a large expenditure for such a limited market so other groups have to be on the hook for the money. Ice arenas aren't like a baseball diamond which is virtually free aside from some groundskeeping, they're very expensive.

[BNyrup24]

Goldy313, if you've worked in an arena for 15 years you must know that youth hockey programs generally contribute much more money to ice arenas -- both for ice time fees and building contributions -- than other arena constituents. That's why they often have a "sense of entitlement" -- which in many cases is not just a sense, but a contractual and legal right of entitlement! But this really isn't about taxes and fair use and good or bad uses of public money: it's about whether old guys should get early evening ice time during the heart of the youth hockey season, or whether that ice should go to children. Wally's view is that old guys should get it. I think he is wrong.

[elliott70]

Thanks for avoiding the question oldtimer64.

Most rinks weren't built for youth hockey, most rinks were built for high school hockey, figure skating, and public use. Youth hockey was primarily an outdoor activity until 20 years or so ago. I'd figure you'd know that if you're old enough to play senior hockey.

I'll also let you in on a dirty little secret. Ice arenas built for youth hockey are a bad use of public money. Youth hockey in and of itself can't pay for an arena. Programs like the Mighty Ducks grants are great on the surface but in reality end up costing the community and in the long run won't benefit youth hockey. The grant gave money to communities to build indoor rinks, often some money was paid for by youth hockey. The problem comes after the rink is built, there is no money to pay to run the rink. Youth hockey needs to pay their bill by using more and more ice thereby charging more and more money to players. That causes less and less players to continue playing which in turn causes youth hockey to raise their rates. It's a vicious spiral and hockey in many communities is suffering. The only way out is to get other groups to use the ice or raise taxes - a third is to raise rates on other facilities like golf courses to offset the ice arenas losses but that leads to other issues. Obviously getting more people to use your ice is the best way. This of course creates friction with youth hockey who thinks they are entitled to whatever they want. There's a reason no youth hockey association owns its own rink in and of itself.

I've worked in an arena for more than 15 years now, creatively using the facility is the only way to survive. Youth hockey alone isn't going to pay for an arena. Unfortunatly most communities would never approve af such a large expenditure for such a limited market so other groups have to be on the hook for the money. Ice arenas aren't like a baseball diamond which is virtually free aside from some groundskeeping, they're very expensive.

I cannot speak to most rinks, but youth hockey in Bemidji built two rinks for youth hockey - one is owned by the city though paid for by other means; one is owned by the high school but paid for by other means.
The second was to be used primarily for HS hockey and youth hockey based on donor's grant.
Both are basically youth rinks (in that not fancy or a lot of seating).

Youth hockey built a third rink. It was needed at the time because of numbers in youth hockey and the expansion of girls hockey. This time they built the rink with HS hockey in mind but operate it themselves.

Most rinks are built with HS hockey in mind. But youth hockey is so intertwined with HS hockey one cannot say that bieng built for HS is not the same as youth hockey.

And then we have HS (every school) gymnasiums. How much revenue do they generate? Who are they built for, who has the entitlement there?
Who builds them with how much outside resources?


Also, what small non-profit or for profit organization can pay for a gym, a rink, a softball park, a playground, a beach etc.....????

Not many. That is why we have city, county, state park & rec departments.
Speaking for Bemidji, if we relied on the city we would have no parks, no recreation department.

So we have government owned and operated facilities, constrcuted with the help of others by a vast majority. So who should get first crack at the good ice times. Kids or adults?
But that is not the argument (and I would hope not many would argue for the kids at 9:00 and the adults on at 6:00).
The argument is should someone get preferential treatment because at one point they volunteered to help the program, to build the place????

Again, it is so pathetic to use that aragument I am crimson with embarrassment to think someone close to my age would use that argument. Especially someone that can wield the power of the pen.

LPH and Shaver should apologize.

[MNhockeyfan09]

But this really isn't about taxes and fair use and good or bad uses of public money: it's about whether old guys should get early evening ice time during the heart of the youth hockey season, or whether that ice should go to children. Wally's view is that old guys should get it. I think he is wrong.

Headline: They stole my ice

This is about AVHA not willing to work with Wally (who had the ice for 14 years) and stealing his ice. They never returned a phone call or an -mail, they just took the ice! That is wrong, because AVHA does such a poor job of handling their ice needs they choose to steal others then find their own.
Wally's league starts at 8:15 and ends at 10:30 on Wed. nights.
That is one and a half hours a week of prime ice.

Wally is right!!!! Read the article.

BTW-EVHA did offer ice to Wally and supports all hockey.

[elliott70]

But this really isn't about taxes and fair use and good or bad uses of public money: it's about whether old guys should get early evening ice time during the heart of the youth hockey season, or whether that ice should go to children. Wally's view is that old guys should get it. I think he is wrong.

Headline: They stole my ice

This is about AVHA not willing to work with Wally (who had the ice for 14 years) and stealing his ice. They never returned a phone call or an -mail, they just took the ice! That is wrong, because AVHA does such a poor job of handling their ice needs they choose to steal others then find their own.
Wally's league starts at 8:15 and ends at 10:30 on Wed. nights.
That is one and a half hours a week of prime ice.

Wally is right!!!! Read the article.

BTW-EVHA did offer ice to Wally and supports all hockey.

You are missing the point.
One does not use 'the hockey paper' to rant about what he did and how great he is and it was his ice.
Shaver is wrong. All his volunteer time does not give him the right to the ice. And as he stated in the article, the ice was originally, and apparently still, given to the youth program by written contract.

And, unless you are Wally, do you know what the youth program did to contact him?

And the article does state that the president emailed Shaver. He even quotes it. Read it again, and tell me where Wally is right in taking a personal blast at a youth hockey board and organization.

Shaver's reasoning for why they were entitled to the ice is completely without merit.
"We did this so we deserve this."

Plain and simple, he is whining and doin gso in public just to get at the AV board. It is not goin gto change the situation.
Maybe he is looking for some other facility to give him some prime ice time becasue poor Wally is such a good guy.

[spin-o-rama]

But this really isn't about taxes and fair use and good or bad uses of public money: it's about whether old guys should get early evening ice time during the heart of the youth hockey season, or whether that ice should go to children. Wally's view is that old guys should get it. I think he is wrong.

Headline: They stole my ice

This is about AVHA not willing to work with Wally (who had the ice for 14 years) and stealing his ice. They never returned a phone call or an -mail, they just took the ice! That is wrong, because AVHA does such a poor job of handling their ice needs they choose to steal others then find their own.
Wally's league starts at 8:15 and ends at 10:30 on Wed. nights.
That is one and a half hours a week of prime ice.

Wally is right!!!! Read the article.

BTW-EVHA did offer ice to Wally and supports all hockey.

Wally may have a point that the communication and manner that the ice was taken away was poor.

However, he had only a secondary claim to that ice time. Apple Valley had first rights. His only real argument is that the ice should be his through adverse possession because he squatted on it for 14 years. But that won't happen. Snubbing kids is a kiss of death to politicians or organizations.

The bottom line is that just about every adult that plays hockey now played hockey as a kid. They got the good hours when they were a kid, now it is their turn to play late night. It is part of the culture of being a grown-up hockey player. You help the kids by coaching in the evening and then play a late night game. The short hours of sleep is a badge of hockey honor for adults. It is not so for a kid. It would be detrimental to their physical and mental growth and well being.

I think Wally is not on the side of adult hockey, but on the side of Wally's current agenda, personal priorities, and selfish wants.

[BNyrup24]

Interesting contrast from this article I stumbled across in a Nashville newspaper (http://www.rctimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar ... 4/MTCN0303)

"It's rough on guys like me who have to be up at 5:30 a.m. to get my daughter ready for school,'' said Dan Leclair, 36, a player on the B league Flyers at the Sportsplex who is in the construction business no less.

"But we all know the reason … and everyone here is so happy that the Predators influence has brought interest in youth hockey. We're all glad the kids can get the time."

[gerryodrowski]

There is a long list of mistakes that Wally made by penning his article They Stole My Ice. I've got the first two....

Mistake #1: Wally used the "bully pulpit" (LPH) in an attempt to advance a personal agenda.

Mistake #2: Wally blew his credibility by trying to convince his readers that he and his bunch of "has beens and never weres" are still playing "competitive hockey".

This guy is a phony through and through.

[oldtimer64]

Thanks for avoiding the question oldtimer64.

Most rinks weren't built for youth hockey, most rinks were built for high school hockey, figure skating, and public use. Youth hockey was primarily an outdoor activity until 20 years or so ago. I'd figure you'd know that if you're old enough to play senior hockey.

I'll also let you in on a dirty little secret. Ice arenas built for youth hockey are a bad use of public money. Youth hockey in and of itself can't pay for an arena. Programs like the Mighty Ducks grants are great on the surface but in reality end up costing the community and in the long run won't benefit youth hockey. The grant gave money to communities to build indoor rinks, often some money was paid for by youth hockey. The problem comes after the rink is built, there is no money to pay to run the rink. Youth hockey needs to pay their bill by using more and more ice thereby charging more and more money to players. That causes less and less players to continue playing which in turn causes youth hockey to raise their rates. It's a vicious spiral and hockey in many communities is suffering. The only way out is to get other groups to use the ice or raise taxes - a third is to raise rates on other facilities like golf courses to offset the ice arenas losses but that leads to other issues. Obviously getting more people to use your ice is the best way. This of course creates friction with youth hockey who thinks they are entitled to whatever they want. There's a reason no youth hockey association owns its own rink in and of itself.

I've worked in an arena for more than 15 years now, creatively using the facility is the only way to survive. Youth hockey alone isn't going to pay for an arena. Unfortunatly most communities would never approve af such a large expenditure for such a limited market so other groups have to be on the hook for the money. Ice arenas aren't like a baseball diamond which is virtually free aside from some groundskeeping, they're very expensive.

.

Listen Goldy313, I said most rinks were built with hockey in mind if they don't have hockey there's no reason for a rink because figure skating can't support a rink. I understand that rinks can't live off just hockey they need to find ways to pay the bills in non-hockey months (april-sept). i don't care about AV or BV not my problem. The way Wally went about dealing with his issue in my mind was wrong, Kids should always come first!

[council member retired]

Copied off the district 6 website
Game # Date
Time Day Place
Type - Level Home Team Eastview
Visiting Team Note Burnsville Gold
352 12/5/2007
8:30:00pm Wednesday Hayes Arena
League - Bantam B-2
Eastview vs Burnsville Gold

A friend of mine has a grandson on a Burnsville Bantam team. He is a good player. Anyways tonight they were skating at Wally's rink, during Wally's icetime. Wally was not there. The home team was Eastview.. hook line and sinker Wally.. The ice is being used by all youth of Apple Valley Hockey associations. I do look forward to Doug Johnson either letting you go, or helping you write a apology.

[Snappedshot]

Wally states in his rant that he needs the earlier time slot because he has to get up for work in the morning. The real reason he wants the earlier ice time is so he can get to Rascals and pound beer with his "in shape" hockey pals. One word Wally - rehab.