Thats right! Schools that opt up to play AA, put sports before education!Goldy23 wrote: At Breck for instance, it has nothing to do with being afraid, its just that the administration right or wrong won't put athletics above education...
Holy Crap!
St Thomas @ Cretin 12-18-07
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saintpaulhockey
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Goldy23...........
I am not ripping on any "A" team because they are an "A" team! I am confused, you are the one instigating all this with your sarastic talk of "a b squad knowcking off a AA power." I follow A hockey closely too and it is not until tourney time that I label a team by their class. STA, however has more boys in their school than CDH and probably BSM, HM too yet they still won't move up. That DOES bother me because they are good enough to compete with anybody but they would rather beat up on the Red Wings and Rochester Lourdes of the world in sections en route to a cupcake ride to the X.
I am not ripping on any "A" team because they are an "A" team! I am confused, you are the one instigating all this with your sarastic talk of "a b squad knowcking off a AA power." I follow A hockey closely too and it is not until tourney time that I label a team by their class. STA, however has more boys in their school than CDH and probably BSM, HM too yet they still won't move up. That DOES bother me because they are good enough to compete with anybody but they would rather beat up on the Red Wings and Rochester Lourdes of the world in sections en route to a cupcake ride to the X.
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Neutron 14
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You are correct dangles. The MSHSL doubles STA's total enrollment for classification due to being all male.dangles07 wrote:Saintpaulhockey, unless you are counting the middle school CDH has more boys than STA about 650-530
But Roseau has about 205.
Enrollment numbers have very little to do with hockey success. Especially at the private schools who unlike most public schools, can hire non-teachers as coaches. The Vanelli's are excellent coaches and "attract" very good players. In this environment, total enrollment is irrelevant. "We're little" is bogus, and everyone knows it.SPH,saintpaulhockey wrote:Goldy23...........
I am not ripping on any "A" team because they are an "A" team! I am confused, you are the one instigating all this with your sarastic talk of "a b squad knowcking off a AA power." I follow A hockey closely too and it is not until tourney time that I label a team by their class. STA, however has more boys in their school than CDH and probably BSM, HM too yet they still won't move up. That DOES bother me because they are good enough to compete with anybody but they would rather beat up on the Red Wings and Rochester Lourdes of the world in sections en route to a cupcake ride to the X.
I'm responding to Packerboy's perpetual rants about Class A teams being "B-squaders" is all. You do bring up an interesting point about the size of STA's class though.
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thestickler07
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St. Thomas has no excuse not to opt up to AA in hockey. They would compete very favorably, and would have a great shot at winning either 3AA or 4AA, their two most logical possible assignments. The administration should take no pride in a section championship or any victory in the state tournament. The only meaningful championship they play for is the CSC crown, so essentially if they can beat HM twice. "A" hockey has no glory, has no sellouts, and no real championship.
Imo, they SHOULD eliminate opt ups, have everyone play in their assigned section in a two class format. And then have the champion of "subsection" 1A (small schools), play the winner of "subsection" 1AA(big schools), for the true Section 1 championship, and a birth to the state tournament. That way we can have true state champion, and gives a David vs Goliath feel to alot of games. Think, matchups like Warroad vs Roseau, Hibbing vs Grand Rapids, St. Thomas vs Hill Murray, and Hermantown vs Centennial for a trip to state, and a true section championship? And finally in March, having a team hold a "State Hockey Champion" trophy above their heads. One champion, the way it should be.
But ya, until pigs fly, hell freezes over, the Vikings win the Super Bowl, or the MSHSL runs with my idea....
St. Thomas should opt in the meantime...
Imo, they SHOULD eliminate opt ups, have everyone play in their assigned section in a two class format. And then have the champion of "subsection" 1A (small schools), play the winner of "subsection" 1AA(big schools), for the true Section 1 championship, and a birth to the state tournament. That way we can have true state champion, and gives a David vs Goliath feel to alot of games. Think, matchups like Warroad vs Roseau, Hibbing vs Grand Rapids, St. Thomas vs Hill Murray, and Hermantown vs Centennial for a trip to state, and a true section championship? And finally in March, having a team hold a "State Hockey Champion" trophy above their heads. One champion, the way it should be.
But ya, until pigs fly, hell freezes over, the Vikings win the Super Bowl, or the MSHSL runs with my idea....
St. Thomas should opt in the meantime...
Ah, thats the point. The teams you play against to get there and against in the so called state tournament.ROOK EYE wrote:So you take Breck, St Thomas, Blake, Duluth Marshall etc. out of the A Tourney what do have left.
I have never posted a criticism of a Class A team's ability, only of the mentality that results in private metro schools playing there.
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HShockeywatcher
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thestickler07,
The point you started bringing up is one that I've brought up before, about eliminating opt ups. But then you went away from that, if you eliminated opt ups 2 or 3 of the AA teams you listed would be A teams. Roseau and Rapids (not sure about Hill). Which is why not allowing them would work, as you'd see some of the best teams in state in the small school tourney, having two great tourneys.
I tried to start a thread about what you get from opting up and no one took it seriously. That's what happens when this gets discussed, so why do we even do it?
To conclude, in the pointless tier system we are in, yes St Thomas should opt up. Not only could they currently compete with probably anyone in state, but they would probably keep more good players, and attract more. Win win.
The point you started bringing up is one that I've brought up before, about eliminating opt ups. But then you went away from that, if you eliminated opt ups 2 or 3 of the AA teams you listed would be A teams. Roseau and Rapids (not sure about Hill). Which is why not allowing them would work, as you'd see some of the best teams in state in the small school tourney, having two great tourneys.
I tried to start a thread about what you get from opting up and no one took it seriously. That's what happens when this gets discussed, so why do we even do it?
To conclude, in the pointless tier system we are in, yes St Thomas should opt up. Not only could they currently compete with probably anyone in state, but they would probably keep more good players, and attract more. Win win.
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thestickler07
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Ya, I know what you're saying, the thing is, I didn't know what 64 teams would be in AA if they eliminated opt ups, because I'm pretty sure hockey has the most of any sport.HShockeywatcher wrote:thestickler07,
The point you started bringing up is one that I've brought up before, about eliminating opt ups. But then you went away from that, if you eliminated opt ups 2 or 3 of the AA teams you listed would be A teams. Roseau and Rapids (not sure about Hill). Which is why not allowing them would work, as you'd see some of the best teams in state in the small school tourney, having two great tourneys.
I tried to start a thread about what you get from opting up and no one took it seriously. That's what happens when this gets discussed, so why do we even do it?
To conclude, in the pointless tier system we are in, yes St Thomas should opt up. Not only could they currently compete with probably anyone in state, but they would probably keep more good players, and attract more. Win win.
It would be Blaine vs Centennial vs Edina vs Bloomington vs EP vs Moorhead etc etc. every year.
No small Northern teams and no privates. If you dont have opt ups you ruin the AA tournament.
Thats the absurdity of having a 2 class system in hockey based on enrollment. Its a clusterfluke.
Opt ups are necessary but it should go further and take the "opt" out of it for certain schools.
It seems to me that Class A was created so certain schools would have a chance to play in a year end tournamnet in St Paul who with out it would never have a chance.
So, why not put something on place that is true to that purpose.
Leave Class A to the likes of the Worthingtons, Hutchinsons, EGFs, TRFs and IS's beloved Pirates. Throw some first ring old suburbs in there too like Richfield. Teams that truly have no chance in a one class system of competing in a state tournament.
Force the established metro privates to lose the BSquad mentality and get into Class AA withe the Roseaus, GRapids, HM, CDH, AHA, BSM etc etc.
Whats wrong with that?
No small Northern teams and no privates. If you dont have opt ups you ruin the AA tournament.
Thats the absurdity of having a 2 class system in hockey based on enrollment. Its a clusterfluke.
Opt ups are necessary but it should go further and take the "opt" out of it for certain schools.
It seems to me that Class A was created so certain schools would have a chance to play in a year end tournamnet in St Paul who with out it would never have a chance.
So, why not put something on place that is true to that purpose.
Leave Class A to the likes of the Worthingtons, Hutchinsons, EGFs, TRFs and IS's beloved Pirates. Throw some first ring old suburbs in there too like Richfield. Teams that truly have no chance in a one class system of competing in a state tournament.
Force the established metro privates to lose the BSquad mentality and get into Class AA withe the Roseaus, GRapids, HM, CDH, AHA, BSM etc etc.
Whats wrong with that?
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thestickler07
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Another interesting idea that I have seen in action is the idea of an "open" championship format, it is popular in the California Interscholastic Federation, (California's high school association). Teams are divided by size into Division I, II, and III based on enrollment, I being the biggest. Halfway through the season, teams are given the option of declaring for the "open" division playoffs. Essentially, the teams that are the best in each division, declare and are seeded into the playoffs at the end of the year. If you don't qualify for the Open Division you play in your respective class playoff.
This way, all teams can compete in their respective enrollments, but if you have a particularly good team, or streak of teams, you have a chance to compete for a larger title. This would have been a great idea with schools like Braham in basketball not too long ago, which would have provided them an avenue for competition against the state's best, without a multiyear commitment to AAAA for basketball.
This way, all teams can compete in their respective enrollments, but if you have a particularly good team, or streak of teams, you have a chance to compete for a larger title. This would have been a great idea with schools like Braham in basketball not too long ago, which would have provided them an avenue for competition against the state's best, without a multiyear commitment to AAAA for basketball.
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HShockeywatcher
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