Bloomington Dec 26-31
Apple Valley
Minnetonka
Highland
Tartan
Coon Rapids
Fire 96
Kennedy
North Metro
Chaska
Rosemount
Rogers
Eastview
Eagan
Jefferson
Moundsview
Buffalo
Edina Dec 27-30
Lakeville South
95 Fire
Eden Prairie
Centennial
Edina
Duluth East
Rochester 1
Fargo Flyers
Colorado Thunderbirds
Wayzata
Lakeville North
White Bear Lake
Bemidji Dec 29-31
Bemidji
Marquette
Mound-Westonka
Devils Lake
Thunder Bay
Roseau
St. Cloud
Cloquet
Warroad
Virginia
Keweenaw
Grand Forks
Crookston
Superior
Fort Francis
Hastings
Above is the pool play for three peewee A tourneys to be played after Christmas. The Bloomington tourney plays 12 minute stop time periods and uses pool play (siliver stick point system) to seed the top 12 teams who then play a four round single elimination bracket tourney. First, Second and Third place trophies are awarded. The Edina plays longer games (can't find the period times) and uses a normal point system to determine pool winners and wild card for semifinal and championship games.
Bemidji has a different twist, they use a normal point system to determine seeds within a pool (1-4) and then group the seeds to play semis and finals at each seed level. Note, Bloomington is a 6-day, Edina is a 4-day and Bemidji is a 3-day tourney. Each tourney has some tough teams.
Peewee Tournaments
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
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frederick61
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:54 pm
“To fairplay or to not fairplay” would have been the Bard of Minnesota Hockey”s quandary. The Bard may have to ponder that, but not me. I think it is a dumb rule. Immediately, one of the problems with “fairplay” is that is the ultimate in oxymoron. Its application results in “no playing fair”. Somewhere in this state somebody got an idea that we needed a hockey game where players and coaches needed to be policed beyond the normal rules of the game. The problem is the result is not hockey.
I am extremely grateful that “fairplay” has not found a way to work its magic in hockey outside the mandated district play. It’s one reason I don’t like watching district games. I prefer tourneys where the kids can play hockey. I call it the “unfairplay” point.
I am going to describe a district game as factual as I can between two teams that is based upon a game played some time ago (not even this season). One team was in contention for the district playoffs, but needed every point. I will call that team the Fairplay team. The other team was down in the standings and was playing for pride. I will call them the Dontcare team. I had seen both teams play outside the District in tourneys.
The Dontcare team was at best struggling. Most tourney scores were 5 to 10 goal loses. Without the backing of a fairplay point penalty to hold the tourney teams in check, their play was contained. And it should be. This hockey development and the kids have to learn. In the tourneys they were being aggressively checked off the puck, missing passes, unable to check themselves and unable to rush the puck. But when it came to district play, the Dontcare team scores were much closer.
The Fairplay team was a good team, had played well in various tourneys and had a shot at post season play. The Fairplay coaches were not worried about winning their game with Dontcare, they entered the game worried about losing the unfairplay point. Already, this game was not hockey.
So I reluctantly attended this district game knowing it was less about hockey or about kids learning, but about the Fairplay team surviving. They came out and dominated as expected. The score was widening when at the start of the second period, the Fairplay team got their fifth penalty. With a seventh penalty, they would lose their unfairplay point. The coaches and players knew it on both sides.
The game now switched. The Dontcare team became aggressive. The Fairplay players would spend the rest of the game avoiding physical contact and penalties. The Dontcare team would play the rest of the game initiating physical contact. It was like watching a fight were one fighter was allowed to throw as many punches as they could, to clutch and grab at will; where the other fighter could only deflect punches and constantly back away.
It didn’t change the game’s outcome. It just made the remaining game useless. There was nothing to be gained. I heard the Dontcare coach say afterwards that it was lucky they got Fairplay got its fifth penalty early or his team would have really been beaten. So what. If they get really beaten enough maybe they will figure out how to do better.
But it gets worse. Later in the season, in another game in another district, one team was out of the playoff and down to a contending team in a district game. With few minutes to go in the game, the out of the playoff team became deliberately physical. As I watched the game, I could only believe they were “baiting” the other team so they would lose their cool and their unfairplay point. It was not a hockey game. It was not even a game like the Fairplay team game against Dontcare. It was yet another version of an unfair game skated on ice. The districts should change the rule.
I am extremely grateful that “fairplay” has not found a way to work its magic in hockey outside the mandated district play. It’s one reason I don’t like watching district games. I prefer tourneys where the kids can play hockey. I call it the “unfairplay” point.
I am going to describe a district game as factual as I can between two teams that is based upon a game played some time ago (not even this season). One team was in contention for the district playoffs, but needed every point. I will call that team the Fairplay team. The other team was down in the standings and was playing for pride. I will call them the Dontcare team. I had seen both teams play outside the District in tourneys.
The Dontcare team was at best struggling. Most tourney scores were 5 to 10 goal loses. Without the backing of a fairplay point penalty to hold the tourney teams in check, their play was contained. And it should be. This hockey development and the kids have to learn. In the tourneys they were being aggressively checked off the puck, missing passes, unable to check themselves and unable to rush the puck. But when it came to district play, the Dontcare team scores were much closer.
The Fairplay team was a good team, had played well in various tourneys and had a shot at post season play. The Fairplay coaches were not worried about winning their game with Dontcare, they entered the game worried about losing the unfairplay point. Already, this game was not hockey.
So I reluctantly attended this district game knowing it was less about hockey or about kids learning, but about the Fairplay team surviving. They came out and dominated as expected. The score was widening when at the start of the second period, the Fairplay team got their fifth penalty. With a seventh penalty, they would lose their unfairplay point. The coaches and players knew it on both sides.
The game now switched. The Dontcare team became aggressive. The Fairplay players would spend the rest of the game avoiding physical contact and penalties. The Dontcare team would play the rest of the game initiating physical contact. It was like watching a fight were one fighter was allowed to throw as many punches as they could, to clutch and grab at will; where the other fighter could only deflect punches and constantly back away.
It didn’t change the game’s outcome. It just made the remaining game useless. There was nothing to be gained. I heard the Dontcare coach say afterwards that it was lucky they got Fairplay got its fifth penalty early or his team would have really been beaten. So what. If they get really beaten enough maybe they will figure out how to do better.
But it gets worse. Later in the season, in another game in another district, one team was out of the playoff and down to a contending team in a district game. With few minutes to go in the game, the out of the playoff team became deliberately physical. As I watched the game, I could only believe they were “baiting” the other team so they would lose their cool and their unfairplay point. It was not a hockey game. It was not even a game like the Fairplay team game against Dontcare. It was yet another version of an unfair game skated on ice. The districts should change the rule.
Unfortunately the districts have very little to say about the rule.
Fair play was initiated NOT to police the game, but as a measuring stick of the Hockey Education Program (HEP). It is a system used in Quebec youth hockey (a midget league, I believe).
At the time of implementation, all 12 District Directors were leary of it, most were opposed to it. But guaranteed the right to review and adjust it; they and the other 15 board members passed it. The guarantee was not that good.
District 16 is considering going against the handbook and not use the system for seeding purposes. This is another side of the 'unfair play point'. Punishing a team by lowering their position in teh seeding process is a double-edged sword. If TEAM #1 falls to position #2, team #3 is punished because they now have a more difficult semi-final game. Team #4 is rewarded for soemthing they had nothing to do with.
Penalties have their own way of deciding wins and losses.
Fair play was initiated NOT to police the game, but as a measuring stick of the Hockey Education Program (HEP). It is a system used in Quebec youth hockey (a midget league, I believe).
At the time of implementation, all 12 District Directors were leary of it, most were opposed to it. But guaranteed the right to review and adjust it; they and the other 15 board members passed it. The guarantee was not that good.
District 16 is considering going against the handbook and not use the system for seeding purposes. This is another side of the 'unfair play point'. Punishing a team by lowering their position in teh seeding process is a double-edged sword. If TEAM #1 falls to position #2, team #3 is punished because they now have a more difficult semi-final game. Team #4 is rewarded for soemthing they had nothing to do with.
Penalties have their own way of deciding wins and losses.
Last edited by elliott70 on Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Air Force 1
- Posts: 604
- Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:22 pm
- Location: East Grand Forks
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frederick61
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:54 pm
Elliott, thank you for the clarification of the District supervisor’s position on Fair Play system. I don’t know how it links to HEP. I don’t know much about HEP. But like you, I strongly believe penalties have their own way of deciding wins and lose.
The idea that the fair play points is there as a measuring sticks, but not used in district seeding, I strongly support. It will put the emphasis back on the game itself and make the district play more meaningful.
I know some teams last year that didn’t care about the districts. I think that in part was caused by the current system. It is hard on a peewee team’s morale to be unbeaten and find themselves behind the teams they have beaten in the standings. For peewee kids, they look on it as if they have done something wrong personally. That feeling translates to “no fun” simply because they do not understand. To me the district games should always be the focus of a team’s interest in the season. The tourneys and other games that teams play are done to improve themselves.
The idea that the fair play points is there as a measuring sticks, but not used in district seeding, I strongly support. It will put the emphasis back on the game itself and make the district play more meaningful.
I know some teams last year that didn’t care about the districts. I think that in part was caused by the current system. It is hard on a peewee team’s morale to be unbeaten and find themselves behind the teams they have beaten in the standings. For peewee kids, they look on it as if they have done something wrong personally. That feeling translates to “no fun” simply because they do not understand. To me the district games should always be the focus of a team’s interest in the season. The tourneys and other games that teams play are done to improve themselves.
Air Force 1 wrote:Please! Pretty, Pretty Please!elliott70 wrote:District 16 is considering going against the handbook and not use the system for seeding purposes.
Tell your coach (and others) to email me their opinion of Fair Play Points.
Grass roots opinions mean a lot to me and are a great tool in convincing others.
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frederick61
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:54 pm
December 26 Bloomington Tourney
The day after Christmas has become the equivalent of the day after Thanksgiving. The spouse heads for the shopping malls and I head for the rink. There are three great weekends in peewee hockey in a season. This is the second great weekend, after Thanksgiving and before District Playoffs. It snowed Christmas day. And snow remains on the ground despite warmer weather that has been floating in and out of the cities. The result is overcast days and damp nights. But it is Minnesota. I like the cold winters, keeps the bug population down.
The Bloomington Tourney is really four tourneys, peewee A and B, bantam A and B, for a total of 52 teams that will play in 144 games over 6 days. There will be 4 champions, 4 runner-ups and 4 third place teams and a lot of fun as coaches, players and fans try and crowd around the posted results trying to figure out what is going to happen. In the peewee A tourney some of the top teams in the state including Coon Rapids who beat the world last week and is playing the best peewee hockey in the state. They are playing the 96 Fire. There are other good games also, including Apple Valley versus Tonka, two D6 teams that have not played each other this year, Jefferson versus Moundsview, and Rosemount versus Rogers. All these games are played in the late afternoon and early evening time.
For those who have not been to BIG (Bloomington Ice Garden), there are three rinks. BIG 1 was the original rink and is the one used by the high schools (Jefferson and Kennedy) for home games. The arena was expanded by adding BIG 2 which is the funkiest rink around. There is no real seating. Everybody stands on a balcony that is a good 12 feet off the ice. Further they stand right over both benches and timekeeper.
The result is a fun rink to watch a game on, since most fans view the game by looking directly down on everybody and the play. Nobody walks in front of you. Voices carry in both directions. Words are heard by everybody including the refs and that creates quite an emotional atmosphere at times. It reminds me of the old U of M rink before it was rebuilt, you know the rink where a few fans could actual stand against the wall on one end and the students sat in a balcony with the front seats almost directly over the ice. The students would let loose especially on the opponents who could hear every word. But what I remember who suffered more then his share of verbal taunts is a young Doug Woog constantly getting railed by the students for wearing a helmet. It was not a helmet you see players wearing today. It was more like one a bicycler would wear, pointed on both ends and he was the only one on the Gophers to wear one, at least that’s how I remember it.
BIG 3 is the Olympic-sized ice. Part of the Bloomington Tourney attraction is that each team can play once on each rink. It tests a team to go from a smaller rink (BIG 2) to an Olympic sized rink (BIG 3). With the character of each rink so different, it makes the tourney far more interesting. The parking is laid out north and south of the arena with the entrance on the west side. The entrance is non-descript. The old entrance is never used. One walks in between BIG 2 and BIG 3 to a corridor that connects access to all three rinks. There are two concession stands, one at each end. I always stop to check out the Jefferson and Kennedy High School team photos that line that corridor and marvel at the number of D1 and Pro players that played for the two teams, especially the 94’s.
When I hit the rinks today, a mixture of A and B games were being played; but I focused on the peewee A’s. Rosemount and Rogers was the first game up, starting in mid-afternoon. They were playing on the Olympic rink. Both teams had trouble adjusting to the extra skating room. Rogers was the first team to click and quickly took advantage of rink’s size by passing its way to a 2-0 lead at end of the first period. Plus 2 points to Rogers. The second period, Rosemount began to find the open forwards behind the Rogers defense with shots on goal with the rebounds being pounded in. The Irish scored two goals to tie the game 2-2 halfway through the second only to have their defense give up an own goal at the 3 minute mark to fall behind again 3-2. An excellent short handed goal by Rosemount on a crossing pass to a tip-in tied the game with less then a minute left in the second period. The period ended in a 3-3 tie and Rosemount with +2 points.
In the first 3 minutes of the third period, Rosemount rapped in another rebound and another short handed goal to pull ahead 5-3. Each team added a goal and the game ended 6-4. Of the 13 points, Rosemount ended with 10 (won second and third period and game) and Rogers with 2 points (won first period).
Jefferson and Moundsview took the Olympic sized rink next. This match up between two good teams, one from D6 and one from D2. It was one I really wanted to see and for the first half of the game, it was an exciting well skated game. The first period ended in a tie 0-0. No penalties, no scoring. The second period was tied 1-1 at the midway mark and one could see that the Mustangs were tiring on the big ice. Jefferson scored then and followed it with a power play goal in the last minute of the period to go up 3-1. The third period was all Jefferson as they added three goals to win 6-1. As I moved on to the next game, I wondered if the result would be different if they played on one of the smaller rinks. Jefferson ended with +11 points to the Mustang’s +1.
The next game had Apple Valley playing Minnetonka on BIG 1. The game was a tight game with Tonka jumping out to a 1-0 lead. But Valley came back on a short handed goal near the end of the period to tie the game 1-1 at the end of the period. Valley scored a second short handed goal in the second to go up 2-1, but Tonka responded quickly to tie the score 2-2. The game was a tense up and down affair until midway through the third when Valley scored on a rebound to go up 3-2. That broke the game open as Valley added another goal and an empty netter to win 5-2. The Eagles ended with a +10 points to the Skippers +2 and are now favored (by me) to win their pool.
The next game was Coon Rapids and the Fire. There was more then a little fire in the Fire since they were playing the number one ranked peewee A team in the state. They came out skating and on a first period power play scored a nice goal after setting it up on a number of passes. But Coon Rapids stormed back in the second period scoring all five of its goals, one on a nifty tip-in off a hard shot from the point. The CR player was falling backwards when he made the tip and ended up flat on his back as he fell away from the goal. The CR passing combinations, especially around the Fire goal, were excellent and were the difference in the game. The Fire came back to win the third period. The final score was 5-3. CR is now favored to win their pool. CR ended with a +8 points and the Fire with a +4.
Eastview and Chaska were playing as I left, Chaska was ahead in the third period 3-0. On BIG 1, Kennedy was leading North Metro 4-1 in the third also. It was a good opening day.
The day after Christmas has become the equivalent of the day after Thanksgiving. The spouse heads for the shopping malls and I head for the rink. There are three great weekends in peewee hockey in a season. This is the second great weekend, after Thanksgiving and before District Playoffs. It snowed Christmas day. And snow remains on the ground despite warmer weather that has been floating in and out of the cities. The result is overcast days and damp nights. But it is Minnesota. I like the cold winters, keeps the bug population down.
The Bloomington Tourney is really four tourneys, peewee A and B, bantam A and B, for a total of 52 teams that will play in 144 games over 6 days. There will be 4 champions, 4 runner-ups and 4 third place teams and a lot of fun as coaches, players and fans try and crowd around the posted results trying to figure out what is going to happen. In the peewee A tourney some of the top teams in the state including Coon Rapids who beat the world last week and is playing the best peewee hockey in the state. They are playing the 96 Fire. There are other good games also, including Apple Valley versus Tonka, two D6 teams that have not played each other this year, Jefferson versus Moundsview, and Rosemount versus Rogers. All these games are played in the late afternoon and early evening time.
For those who have not been to BIG (Bloomington Ice Garden), there are three rinks. BIG 1 was the original rink and is the one used by the high schools (Jefferson and Kennedy) for home games. The arena was expanded by adding BIG 2 which is the funkiest rink around. There is no real seating. Everybody stands on a balcony that is a good 12 feet off the ice. Further they stand right over both benches and timekeeper.
The result is a fun rink to watch a game on, since most fans view the game by looking directly down on everybody and the play. Nobody walks in front of you. Voices carry in both directions. Words are heard by everybody including the refs and that creates quite an emotional atmosphere at times. It reminds me of the old U of M rink before it was rebuilt, you know the rink where a few fans could actual stand against the wall on one end and the students sat in a balcony with the front seats almost directly over the ice. The students would let loose especially on the opponents who could hear every word. But what I remember who suffered more then his share of verbal taunts is a young Doug Woog constantly getting railed by the students for wearing a helmet. It was not a helmet you see players wearing today. It was more like one a bicycler would wear, pointed on both ends and he was the only one on the Gophers to wear one, at least that’s how I remember it.
BIG 3 is the Olympic-sized ice. Part of the Bloomington Tourney attraction is that each team can play once on each rink. It tests a team to go from a smaller rink (BIG 2) to an Olympic sized rink (BIG 3). With the character of each rink so different, it makes the tourney far more interesting. The parking is laid out north and south of the arena with the entrance on the west side. The entrance is non-descript. The old entrance is never used. One walks in between BIG 2 and BIG 3 to a corridor that connects access to all three rinks. There are two concession stands, one at each end. I always stop to check out the Jefferson and Kennedy High School team photos that line that corridor and marvel at the number of D1 and Pro players that played for the two teams, especially the 94’s.
When I hit the rinks today, a mixture of A and B games were being played; but I focused on the peewee A’s. Rosemount and Rogers was the first game up, starting in mid-afternoon. They were playing on the Olympic rink. Both teams had trouble adjusting to the extra skating room. Rogers was the first team to click and quickly took advantage of rink’s size by passing its way to a 2-0 lead at end of the first period. Plus 2 points to Rogers. The second period, Rosemount began to find the open forwards behind the Rogers defense with shots on goal with the rebounds being pounded in. The Irish scored two goals to tie the game 2-2 halfway through the second only to have their defense give up an own goal at the 3 minute mark to fall behind again 3-2. An excellent short handed goal by Rosemount on a crossing pass to a tip-in tied the game with less then a minute left in the second period. The period ended in a 3-3 tie and Rosemount with +2 points.
In the first 3 minutes of the third period, Rosemount rapped in another rebound and another short handed goal to pull ahead 5-3. Each team added a goal and the game ended 6-4. Of the 13 points, Rosemount ended with 10 (won second and third period and game) and Rogers with 2 points (won first period).
Jefferson and Moundsview took the Olympic sized rink next. This match up between two good teams, one from D6 and one from D2. It was one I really wanted to see and for the first half of the game, it was an exciting well skated game. The first period ended in a tie 0-0. No penalties, no scoring. The second period was tied 1-1 at the midway mark and one could see that the Mustangs were tiring on the big ice. Jefferson scored then and followed it with a power play goal in the last minute of the period to go up 3-1. The third period was all Jefferson as they added three goals to win 6-1. As I moved on to the next game, I wondered if the result would be different if they played on one of the smaller rinks. Jefferson ended with +11 points to the Mustang’s +1.
The next game had Apple Valley playing Minnetonka on BIG 1. The game was a tight game with Tonka jumping out to a 1-0 lead. But Valley came back on a short handed goal near the end of the period to tie the game 1-1 at the end of the period. Valley scored a second short handed goal in the second to go up 2-1, but Tonka responded quickly to tie the score 2-2. The game was a tense up and down affair until midway through the third when Valley scored on a rebound to go up 3-2. That broke the game open as Valley added another goal and an empty netter to win 5-2. The Eagles ended with a +10 points to the Skippers +2 and are now favored (by me) to win their pool.
The next game was Coon Rapids and the Fire. There was more then a little fire in the Fire since they were playing the number one ranked peewee A team in the state. They came out skating and on a first period power play scored a nice goal after setting it up on a number of passes. But Coon Rapids stormed back in the second period scoring all five of its goals, one on a nifty tip-in off a hard shot from the point. The CR player was falling backwards when he made the tip and ended up flat on his back as he fell away from the goal. The CR passing combinations, especially around the Fire goal, were excellent and were the difference in the game. The Fire came back to win the third period. The final score was 5-3. CR is now favored to win their pool. CR ended with a +8 points and the Fire with a +4.
Eastview and Chaska were playing as I left, Chaska was ahead in the third period 3-0. On BIG 1, Kennedy was leading North Metro 4-1 in the third also. It was a good opening day.
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frederick61
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:54 pm
Bloomington Tourney summary (First 2 days)
Red Division Summary: Apple Valley leads pool in points with 23. Tartan and Tonka each have 14 and 13 respectively. Highland has 1 point and plays Tonka on the third day of the tourney. Most likely the Apple Valley-Tartan point split will determine the top pool seed. If Valley wins one period, Tartan loses the top pool seed. Two Valley points would require Tonka to take all 13 points from Highland to win the pool, more then two Valley points gives the Eagles the top pool seed. Highland needs to get points from Tonka to make bracket play. The team has shown potential in this tourney. They have not been an easy team to beat.
Red Division score summary
Tartan over Highland 5-0
Apple Valley over Minnetonka 5-2
Apple Valley over Highland 5-0
Minnetonka over Tartan 1-0
White Division Summary: Coon Rapids leads the pool with 21 points and draws North Metro in their final pool game. The 96 Fire and Kennedy each have 13 and 12 points respectively and play each other. The winner of that game is likely to have the 5th, 6th, or 7th seed in bracket play (drawing the eleventh or twelfth seed in the opening bracket round). North Metro like Highland seem destined to not make bracket play.
White Division score summary
Kennedy over North Metro 4-1
Coon Rapids over Fire 5-3
Coon Rapids over Kennedy 4-0
Fire over North Metro 5-1
Blue Division Summary: Chaska (21 points) and Rosemount (19 points) will fight it out for the pool seed. Winner of that game will take the seed, the loser is likely to fight it out for a 5-8 seed. In the other remaining game the winner either Eastview (4 points) and Rogers (5 points) will likely make it to bracket play with an 8-12 seed. The loser will not make bracket play.
Blue Division score summary
Chaska over Eastview 3-0
Rosemount over Rogers 6-4
Chaska over Rogers 4-1
Rosemount over Eastview 2-1
Gold Division Summary: With only one round played the first two days, this division plays two games on the third day. It still is a wide open pool.
Gold Division score summary
Jefferson over Moundsview 6-1
Eagan over Buffalo 7-1
Edina Tourney summary (First Day)
White Division Summary: Edina beating Rochester and the other two division teams tying, puts Edina in the driver seat in this pool and puts Rochester in the rumble seat. Edina still has to win their next two games to assure advancing but have more options should they lose. Rochester has to win twice and hope Edina loses twice. The other two teams need to beat Rochester and Edina tomorrow to advance.
White Division score summary
Edina over Rochester 5-1
Duluth East tied Fargo Flyers 2-2
Black Division summary: The Thunder and Wayzata game (at 4:30) is likely to determine the pool winner. Lakeville North and White Bear Lake play each other and the winner has a chance, providing they play the winner of the Thunder/Wayzata game in their final game of the pool and beat that team. That would create a three way tie for first with each team at 2-1. The tie is then settled by the difference between goals scored and goals given up and would force the Lakeville North/WBL game winner to beat the other team by five goals to have a shot at winning a three way tie.
Black Division score summary:
Colorado Thunder over Lakeville North 4-1
Wayzata over White Bear Lake 6-1
Green Division summary: Lakeville South is a real casualty here. Even if they come back to win their final two games, they would need the 95 Fire to lose both games (or tie one and lose the other). Eden Prairie has a shot to act as a spoiler and beat the 95 Fire and Lakeville South. If they beat the Fire, they could still lose to South. That would turn the pool into a three way tie and move the tie breaker to goal difference.
Green Division score summary:
Eden Prairie over Centennial 5-1
95 Fire over Lakeville South 5-2
Some observations on the two tourneys:
1.Both peewee A tourneys have the same number of ranked teams.
2.Edina “lumps” the peewee games on three rinks over a three hour period during the day (i.e. 11:00 to 2:00 today, 3:00 to 6:00 tomorrow and 7:30 to 11:00 on Saturday). Bloomington staggers the games so that one can watch peewee games over a 6 hour period. The Bloomington approach gives fans more options.
3.In the Edina tourney, five of 12 teams have essentially been eliminated because of tourney format after the first day. They have a small potential to come back but have to rely on play outside their own. Lakeville South is the biggest disappointment and all they did was lose to the Fire. In Bloomington, no teams have been eliminated after two days of play. If Lakeville South were in the Bloomington Tourney, they could have lost twice and still come back to win the tourney. The ability to move on would have remained in their own hands. Tomorrow, four teams in the Bloomington Tourney will not make bracket play, 12 teams will. Some teams can play up to six games if they get to the semifinals of bracket play (not three games and out the door).
4.Parking is easier at BIG. Access is easier at BIG, no traffic jams on the freeway.
5.Bloomington has 12 minute periods with no cleaning the ice. Thirteen would be better. Edina has 15 minute periods with cleaning the ice every two periods. Both tourneys have running time in the third. However Edina goes to running time at a four goal difference, Bloomington at a five goal difference. Four goals is not right. Either you are putting on a hockey tourney or you are not.
6.The sign in the front entrance of BIG on the first day announced to all people entering “closed for hockey today”. That’s great.
7.Edina tourney organizers go for strong teams, but the level of play at the peewee level for both tourneys this year was about the same. The Bloomington tourney, drawing more teams, had teams from districts that would never get in the Edina tourney. But those teams played better then their fans thought they would. My hats off to Bloomington. Their format gives some districts opportunity to improve their play and if they play well, to win a nice trophy.
Red Division Summary: Apple Valley leads pool in points with 23. Tartan and Tonka each have 14 and 13 respectively. Highland has 1 point and plays Tonka on the third day of the tourney. Most likely the Apple Valley-Tartan point split will determine the top pool seed. If Valley wins one period, Tartan loses the top pool seed. Two Valley points would require Tonka to take all 13 points from Highland to win the pool, more then two Valley points gives the Eagles the top pool seed. Highland needs to get points from Tonka to make bracket play. The team has shown potential in this tourney. They have not been an easy team to beat.
Red Division score summary
Tartan over Highland 5-0
Apple Valley over Minnetonka 5-2
Apple Valley over Highland 5-0
Minnetonka over Tartan 1-0
White Division Summary: Coon Rapids leads the pool with 21 points and draws North Metro in their final pool game. The 96 Fire and Kennedy each have 13 and 12 points respectively and play each other. The winner of that game is likely to have the 5th, 6th, or 7th seed in bracket play (drawing the eleventh or twelfth seed in the opening bracket round). North Metro like Highland seem destined to not make bracket play.
White Division score summary
Kennedy over North Metro 4-1
Coon Rapids over Fire 5-3
Coon Rapids over Kennedy 4-0
Fire over North Metro 5-1
Blue Division Summary: Chaska (21 points) and Rosemount (19 points) will fight it out for the pool seed. Winner of that game will take the seed, the loser is likely to fight it out for a 5-8 seed. In the other remaining game the winner either Eastview (4 points) and Rogers (5 points) will likely make it to bracket play with an 8-12 seed. The loser will not make bracket play.
Blue Division score summary
Chaska over Eastview 3-0
Rosemount over Rogers 6-4
Chaska over Rogers 4-1
Rosemount over Eastview 2-1
Gold Division Summary: With only one round played the first two days, this division plays two games on the third day. It still is a wide open pool.
Gold Division score summary
Jefferson over Moundsview 6-1
Eagan over Buffalo 7-1
Edina Tourney summary (First Day)
White Division Summary: Edina beating Rochester and the other two division teams tying, puts Edina in the driver seat in this pool and puts Rochester in the rumble seat. Edina still has to win their next two games to assure advancing but have more options should they lose. Rochester has to win twice and hope Edina loses twice. The other two teams need to beat Rochester and Edina tomorrow to advance.
White Division score summary
Edina over Rochester 5-1
Duluth East tied Fargo Flyers 2-2
Black Division summary: The Thunder and Wayzata game (at 4:30) is likely to determine the pool winner. Lakeville North and White Bear Lake play each other and the winner has a chance, providing they play the winner of the Thunder/Wayzata game in their final game of the pool and beat that team. That would create a three way tie for first with each team at 2-1. The tie is then settled by the difference between goals scored and goals given up and would force the Lakeville North/WBL game winner to beat the other team by five goals to have a shot at winning a three way tie.
Black Division score summary:
Colorado Thunder over Lakeville North 4-1
Wayzata over White Bear Lake 6-1
Green Division summary: Lakeville South is a real casualty here. Even if they come back to win their final two games, they would need the 95 Fire to lose both games (or tie one and lose the other). Eden Prairie has a shot to act as a spoiler and beat the 95 Fire and Lakeville South. If they beat the Fire, they could still lose to South. That would turn the pool into a three way tie and move the tie breaker to goal difference.
Green Division score summary:
Eden Prairie over Centennial 5-1
95 Fire over Lakeville South 5-2
Some observations on the two tourneys:
1.Both peewee A tourneys have the same number of ranked teams.
2.Edina “lumps” the peewee games on three rinks over a three hour period during the day (i.e. 11:00 to 2:00 today, 3:00 to 6:00 tomorrow and 7:30 to 11:00 on Saturday). Bloomington staggers the games so that one can watch peewee games over a 6 hour period. The Bloomington approach gives fans more options.
3.In the Edina tourney, five of 12 teams have essentially been eliminated because of tourney format after the first day. They have a small potential to come back but have to rely on play outside their own. Lakeville South is the biggest disappointment and all they did was lose to the Fire. In Bloomington, no teams have been eliminated after two days of play. If Lakeville South were in the Bloomington Tourney, they could have lost twice and still come back to win the tourney. The ability to move on would have remained in their own hands. Tomorrow, four teams in the Bloomington Tourney will not make bracket play, 12 teams will. Some teams can play up to six games if they get to the semifinals of bracket play (not three games and out the door).
4.Parking is easier at BIG. Access is easier at BIG, no traffic jams on the freeway.
5.Bloomington has 12 minute periods with no cleaning the ice. Thirteen would be better. Edina has 15 minute periods with cleaning the ice every two periods. Both tourneys have running time in the third. However Edina goes to running time at a four goal difference, Bloomington at a five goal difference. Four goals is not right. Either you are putting on a hockey tourney or you are not.
6.The sign in the front entrance of BIG on the first day announced to all people entering “closed for hockey today”. That’s great.
7.Edina tourney organizers go for strong teams, but the level of play at the peewee level for both tourneys this year was about the same. The Bloomington tourney, drawing more teams, had teams from districts that would never get in the Edina tourney. But those teams played better then their fans thought they would. My hats off to Bloomington. Their format gives some districts opportunity to improve their play and if they play well, to win a nice trophy.
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frederick61
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:54 pm
Bloomington Tourney Summary (Day 3)
Pool winners seed (pool winners draw a bye and will not play on Day 4):
Apple Valley #1
Chaska #2
Coon Rapids #3
Jefferson #4
First Round of Bracket play (Day 4) and seeds:
Tonka #7 plays Tartan #10, Winner plays Chaska, Winner advances to semifinals
96 Fire #6 plays Kennedy #11, Winner plays Coon Rapids, Winner advances to semifinals
Eagan #5 plays Moundsview #10, Winner plays Jefferson, Winner advances to semifinals
Rosemount #8 plays Eastview #9, Winner plays Apple Valley, Winner advances to semifinals
The surprise of the tourney for me has been the play of Highland (D1). They had a bad few minutes against Tartan where gave up 4 goals in a short span in their opening game; played a tough game against Apple Valley before losing; and pushed Minnetonka to the point of eliminating them from bracket play (leading 2-0 in the third before giving up 3 goals to lose 3-2). If they continue to play well and improve, they should be in the regions.
The Rosemount/Eastview game in the opening round of bracket play will be the second time the two teams met in this tourney. Rosemount won the first 2-1 in an exciting game between the two School District 196 Rivals.
Eagan (also District 196) is defending champion (won last year) and was runner-up two years ago.
Three of the four pool winners are district 6 teams.
In the last three years, 3 of the 4 pool winners made it to the semifinals, but there has always been one surprise.
Four teams did not make bracket play. Besides Highland; North Metro, Buffalo and Rogers will play in sportsman games on Day 5.
The Edina Tourney entered Day 2 with second round of pool play. In the White Pool, Edina won its second game while Fargo Flyers tied their second game. The winner of Edina/Fargo game will determine the pool winner. If Edina loses, they will still have a shot at the wild card based on goal differential (currently +9). Fargo needs to win.
In the Green Pool, the winner of the Eden Prairie/Fire game will determine the pool winner. The loser can still claim the wild card based on point differential. Eden Prairie and the Fire are both a +8. Note a team can gain only 5 goals per game net so the Fire’s 12-1 win over Centennial counts as only 5 goals in determining tie breakers.
In the Black Pool, it is simple if Wayzata beats Lakeville North. Wayzata moves on. However if Lakeville pulls an upset, that throws the pool into a three way tie with Wayzata, Colorado and North at 4 points each.
Unfortunately, Lakeville North is +0 in goal differential to Wayzata’s +7. Lakeville North has to beat Wayzata by 4 goals to own the tie breaker against Wayzata. They could still lose the pool if Colorado (+1) beats White Bear Lake by 4 goals. With a North win, the wild card would boil down to losers of the two key games in White and Green pools and most likely Colorado. Lakeville South, White Bear Lake, Centennial, Rochester Red, and Duluth East are out and essentially playing for pride tomorrow. North is hanging on by fingernails, but do control their fate.
Pool winners seed (pool winners draw a bye and will not play on Day 4):
Apple Valley #1
Chaska #2
Coon Rapids #3
Jefferson #4
First Round of Bracket play (Day 4) and seeds:
Tonka #7 plays Tartan #10, Winner plays Chaska, Winner advances to semifinals
96 Fire #6 plays Kennedy #11, Winner plays Coon Rapids, Winner advances to semifinals
Eagan #5 plays Moundsview #10, Winner plays Jefferson, Winner advances to semifinals
Rosemount #8 plays Eastview #9, Winner plays Apple Valley, Winner advances to semifinals
The surprise of the tourney for me has been the play of Highland (D1). They had a bad few minutes against Tartan where gave up 4 goals in a short span in their opening game; played a tough game against Apple Valley before losing; and pushed Minnetonka to the point of eliminating them from bracket play (leading 2-0 in the third before giving up 3 goals to lose 3-2). If they continue to play well and improve, they should be in the regions.
The Rosemount/Eastview game in the opening round of bracket play will be the second time the two teams met in this tourney. Rosemount won the first 2-1 in an exciting game between the two School District 196 Rivals.
Eagan (also District 196) is defending champion (won last year) and was runner-up two years ago.
Three of the four pool winners are district 6 teams.
In the last three years, 3 of the 4 pool winners made it to the semifinals, but there has always been one surprise.
Four teams did not make bracket play. Besides Highland; North Metro, Buffalo and Rogers will play in sportsman games on Day 5.
The Edina Tourney entered Day 2 with second round of pool play. In the White Pool, Edina won its second game while Fargo Flyers tied their second game. The winner of Edina/Fargo game will determine the pool winner. If Edina loses, they will still have a shot at the wild card based on goal differential (currently +9). Fargo needs to win.
In the Green Pool, the winner of the Eden Prairie/Fire game will determine the pool winner. The loser can still claim the wild card based on point differential. Eden Prairie and the Fire are both a +8. Note a team can gain only 5 goals per game net so the Fire’s 12-1 win over Centennial counts as only 5 goals in determining tie breakers.
In the Black Pool, it is simple if Wayzata beats Lakeville North. Wayzata moves on. However if Lakeville pulls an upset, that throws the pool into a three way tie with Wayzata, Colorado and North at 4 points each.
Unfortunately, Lakeville North is +0 in goal differential to Wayzata’s +7. Lakeville North has to beat Wayzata by 4 goals to own the tie breaker against Wayzata. They could still lose the pool if Colorado (+1) beats White Bear Lake by 4 goals. With a North win, the wild card would boil down to losers of the two key games in White and Green pools and most likely Colorado. Lakeville South, White Bear Lake, Centennial, Rochester Red, and Duluth East are out and essentially playing for pride tomorrow. North is hanging on by fingernails, but do control their fate.
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oldtimer64
- Posts: 162
- Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:15 am
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frederick61
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:54 pm
Yesterday was the fourth day of the Bloomington Tourney and the third day of the Edina Tourney. I went to both tourney’s peewee A games. Edina’s started at 7:30 and ended about noon. Bloomington’s started at 11:00 and ended at 3:00. Today, I saw the morning quarterfinal round of the Bloomington Tourney.
Bloomington action yesterday was the first round of bracket play with 4 games going. Edina had the last round of pool play with six games going. All of the Bloomington games were “win or go home”. Half of the six Edina games were being played for pride then go home. Rochester versus Duluth East, Lakeville South versus Centennial and Colorado versus White Bear Lake were pride games. The Lakeville North versus Wayzata had more at stake if North could win. They gave it a good try and tied Wayzata 5-5. Wayzata advanced. The 7:30 AM game between Eden Prairie and the 96 Fire promised to be the best that Edina would offer. It was and it also ended in a tie, 2-2, sending both teams to the semi’s. That left one game of the remaining three of interest, Edina versus Fargo Flyers. The Flyers needed to win to advance. They pushed Edina hard after giving up an early goal, but ended up losing 3-0. Edina advanced.
As I left, I was troubled by a conversation I had overheard at Edina about the Bloomington Tourney being a soft tourney.
I actually think Edina is a softer tourney. Let me explain. Before the shift in peewee ages, Bloomington was the Minnesota Silver Stick tourney. Teams that won the tourney won the right to play in the Silver Stick in Michigan. The change in ages between Minnesota and USA Hockey has resulted in no Silver Stick Tourney in Minnesota. But Bloomington kept the format and the tourney going. In doing so, they committed their facilities to a tourney for 6 days. They extra two days of play makes the Bloomington Tourney a hard tourney.
Edina took their tourney in another direction. They kept the tourney length to 4 days, but emphasized that their tourney would attract top peewee teams from out state as well as in state. But the problem is their tourney approach was affected by “age changes” also. The out state teams had to re-set their player ages to meet USA Hockey requirements. Before that “re-setting” the teams outside the state always came to play in all sorts of Minnesota Tournaments (Madison Capitals were often entered in the Burnsville Thanksgiving Tourney along with Canadian Teams). They had an age advantage then and played younger Minnesota kids in a number of great games. Today they don’t have an age advantage and it shows. Most teams from out of state playing in Minnesota Tourneys place at best in the middle of a tourney.
Edina no longer can guarantee that a out of state team that shows up will play well. The only real measure on how powerful team that they can get is to play some games with them such as a team like the Fire, a team based 20 minutes from Braemar, or a ranked team that they play during the season. But in state ranked teams are a problem for a tourney organizer. One does not know the true potential strength of a team until December or 30 days before the tourney opens. The organizers of such tourneys have to accept a team into the tourney in the summer or fall and sent them a “Dear John” letter in late November if they don’t pan out. That happened to one team. The organizers sent a team a “dear john” letter only to be shocked to find out the team was ranked number 1 two weeks later.
My point is Edina can not guarantee strong teams. This year Edina drew 6 ranked teams. But so did Bloomington. The champion of the Edina Tourney will play 5 games (15 minute stop time with ice cleaned every two periods). The champion of the Bloomington Tourney will play 6 or 7 games (12 minute stop time but with no ice cleaning during the game). The Edina format will eliminate teams after the first game. That means a good team can have an opening bad game and they are essentially eliminated (such as what happened to Lakeville South this year). The elimination reduces a teams incentive in the rest of the pool games. No team is eliminated from the Bloomington Tourney until the third day. On that third day, a team still controls its own destiny. This year Highland was leading Tonka 2-0 late in the game. If they had held on to win, they would have made the next round and Tonka would have been in jeopardy of elimination. That’s pressure. That’s tough. That’s why the Silver Stick uses that format.
The Bloomington format is grinding on the teams, much like the District playoffs. Often teams play each other twice in attempting to advance just like the Districts. Rosemount beat Eastview in pool play only to be eliminated by Eastview in bracket play. Such a win spurs a team on. Eastview played a good game against Apple Valley this morning before losing 1-0. As people know who follow district playoffs know, it is often difficult to beat a team multiple times. Coon Rapids beat the 96 Fire 5-3 in pool play, but lost to the Fire in quarterfinals 2-0.
So why will people call the Bloomington Tourney soft? One answer to me is the attitude of the out of state teams that Edina draws. The out of state teams they draw today come to town to play a large number of tough games. To me, it seems that they barely care about winning the Edina tourney. As a result, you will not find a Colorado team entered in the Bloomington Tourney. It would be too restrictive. They do not want to tie their time up in a long tourney playing a slate of teams they can not control. I can see their coaches justifying that decision by saying the tourney is soft.
The Bemidji Tourney completed pool play today. The draw is as follows:
No #1 Seed Bracket Draw
Cloquet versus Mound Westonka
Hastings versus Keweenaw
No #2 Seed Bracket Draw
Marquette versus Roseau
Grand Forks versus Superior
No #3 Seed Bracket Draw
Devils Lake versus St. Cloud
Warroad versus Fort Francis
No #4 Seed Bracket Draw
Bemidji versus Fort William
Virginia versus Crookston
Bloomington action yesterday was the first round of bracket play with 4 games going. Edina had the last round of pool play with six games going. All of the Bloomington games were “win or go home”. Half of the six Edina games were being played for pride then go home. Rochester versus Duluth East, Lakeville South versus Centennial and Colorado versus White Bear Lake were pride games. The Lakeville North versus Wayzata had more at stake if North could win. They gave it a good try and tied Wayzata 5-5. Wayzata advanced. The 7:30 AM game between Eden Prairie and the 96 Fire promised to be the best that Edina would offer. It was and it also ended in a tie, 2-2, sending both teams to the semi’s. That left one game of the remaining three of interest, Edina versus Fargo Flyers. The Flyers needed to win to advance. They pushed Edina hard after giving up an early goal, but ended up losing 3-0. Edina advanced.
As I left, I was troubled by a conversation I had overheard at Edina about the Bloomington Tourney being a soft tourney.
I actually think Edina is a softer tourney. Let me explain. Before the shift in peewee ages, Bloomington was the Minnesota Silver Stick tourney. Teams that won the tourney won the right to play in the Silver Stick in Michigan. The change in ages between Minnesota and USA Hockey has resulted in no Silver Stick Tourney in Minnesota. But Bloomington kept the format and the tourney going. In doing so, they committed their facilities to a tourney for 6 days. They extra two days of play makes the Bloomington Tourney a hard tourney.
Edina took their tourney in another direction. They kept the tourney length to 4 days, but emphasized that their tourney would attract top peewee teams from out state as well as in state. But the problem is their tourney approach was affected by “age changes” also. The out state teams had to re-set their player ages to meet USA Hockey requirements. Before that “re-setting” the teams outside the state always came to play in all sorts of Minnesota Tournaments (Madison Capitals were often entered in the Burnsville Thanksgiving Tourney along with Canadian Teams). They had an age advantage then and played younger Minnesota kids in a number of great games. Today they don’t have an age advantage and it shows. Most teams from out of state playing in Minnesota Tourneys place at best in the middle of a tourney.
Edina no longer can guarantee that a out of state team that shows up will play well. The only real measure on how powerful team that they can get is to play some games with them such as a team like the Fire, a team based 20 minutes from Braemar, or a ranked team that they play during the season. But in state ranked teams are a problem for a tourney organizer. One does not know the true potential strength of a team until December or 30 days before the tourney opens. The organizers of such tourneys have to accept a team into the tourney in the summer or fall and sent them a “Dear John” letter in late November if they don’t pan out. That happened to one team. The organizers sent a team a “dear john” letter only to be shocked to find out the team was ranked number 1 two weeks later.
My point is Edina can not guarantee strong teams. This year Edina drew 6 ranked teams. But so did Bloomington. The champion of the Edina Tourney will play 5 games (15 minute stop time with ice cleaned every two periods). The champion of the Bloomington Tourney will play 6 or 7 games (12 minute stop time but with no ice cleaning during the game). The Edina format will eliminate teams after the first game. That means a good team can have an opening bad game and they are essentially eliminated (such as what happened to Lakeville South this year). The elimination reduces a teams incentive in the rest of the pool games. No team is eliminated from the Bloomington Tourney until the third day. On that third day, a team still controls its own destiny. This year Highland was leading Tonka 2-0 late in the game. If they had held on to win, they would have made the next round and Tonka would have been in jeopardy of elimination. That’s pressure. That’s tough. That’s why the Silver Stick uses that format.
The Bloomington format is grinding on the teams, much like the District playoffs. Often teams play each other twice in attempting to advance just like the Districts. Rosemount beat Eastview in pool play only to be eliminated by Eastview in bracket play. Such a win spurs a team on. Eastview played a good game against Apple Valley this morning before losing 1-0. As people know who follow district playoffs know, it is often difficult to beat a team multiple times. Coon Rapids beat the 96 Fire 5-3 in pool play, but lost to the Fire in quarterfinals 2-0.
So why will people call the Bloomington Tourney soft? One answer to me is the attitude of the out of state teams that Edina draws. The out of state teams they draw today come to town to play a large number of tough games. To me, it seems that they barely care about winning the Edina tourney. As a result, you will not find a Colorado team entered in the Bloomington Tourney. It would be too restrictive. They do not want to tie their time up in a long tourney playing a slate of teams they can not control. I can see their coaches justifying that decision by saying the tourney is soft.
The Bemidji Tourney completed pool play today. The draw is as follows:
No #1 Seed Bracket Draw
Cloquet versus Mound Westonka
Hastings versus Keweenaw
No #2 Seed Bracket Draw
Marquette versus Roseau
Grand Forks versus Superior
No #3 Seed Bracket Draw
Devils Lake versus St. Cloud
Warroad versus Fort Francis
No #4 Seed Bracket Draw
Bemidji versus Fort William
Virginia versus Crookston
F61 - I am having a hard time believing that you think the Edina tourney was a"softer" tourney than Bloomington - Maybe because your AV team was playing there.
The Bloomington tourney had 5 teams ranked in the TOP 20 out of 16 teams in the tourney. Eagan being the highest, now ranked at #7, #8
Edina Tourney had 10 teams out of 12 teams who are ranked in the TOP 20.. 5 of them are now in the Top 6 spots. They had only 2 non Top 20 teams in the tourney - Bloomington had 7.
#1 Edina
#2 Wayzata
#4 Eden Prairie
#6 Lakeville South
#3 Tier 1 - 95 Fire - The have a higher ranking than Edina (point wise) and have beaten them twice
Am I off base here..? I know that "rankings" can be subjective, but come on. I am NOT knocking the Bloomington Tourney - They had a ton of good teams - But when you look at the black and white numbers - Edina's tourney was much stronger.
The Bloomington tourney had 5 teams ranked in the TOP 20 out of 16 teams in the tourney. Eagan being the highest, now ranked at #7, #8
Edina Tourney had 10 teams out of 12 teams who are ranked in the TOP 20.. 5 of them are now in the Top 6 spots. They had only 2 non Top 20 teams in the tourney - Bloomington had 7.
#1 Edina
#2 Wayzata
#4 Eden Prairie
#6 Lakeville South
#3 Tier 1 - 95 Fire - The have a higher ranking than Edina (point wise) and have beaten them twice
Am I off base here..? I know that "rankings" can be subjective, but come on. I am NOT knocking the Bloomington Tourney - They had a ton of good teams - But when you look at the black and white numbers - Edina's tourney was much stronger.
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crossovers8
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:38 pm
Agreed Star. The tourney formats differ, but one is hard pressed to find a better field, top to bottom, than the Edina Tournament.
You can also throw in the '95 CO T-Birds who are #10 nationally in the 1/2/08 MyHockeyRankings.com for 95 Tier 1 AAA. Colorado has a numeric ranking (score) of 16.30, which when cross referenced to MN PeeWee A (MNHockeyRankings.com), translates to #3 in MN (behind Wayzata, just in front of Woodbury). Not to mention they beat a fresh Eagan team in a scrimmage this weekend, on their 3rd game of the day (before 2:00pm) legs.
Also, for F61's benefit, out-of-town (CO) teams have played in the Bloomington Tournament. Arvada CO was in the PWA tourney last year, and I believe Littlton CO was in the BA this year.
You can also throw in the '95 CO T-Birds who are #10 nationally in the 1/2/08 MyHockeyRankings.com for 95 Tier 1 AAA. Colorado has a numeric ranking (score) of 16.30, which when cross referenced to MN PeeWee A (MNHockeyRankings.com), translates to #3 in MN (behind Wayzata, just in front of Woodbury). Not to mention they beat a fresh Eagan team in a scrimmage this weekend, on their 3rd game of the day (before 2:00pm) legs.
Also, for F61's benefit, out-of-town (CO) teams have played in the Bloomington Tournament. Arvada CO was in the PWA tourney last year, and I believe Littlton CO was in the BA this year.
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frederick61
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:54 pm
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frederick61
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:54 pm
One loss or one bad game does not determine the true strength of a team. Hockey is not football where a single game is considered enough to crown a champion.
Under the Edina Format, a team could travel from California to Michigan, play the next day, lose and they might as well pack up and go home. That's not "tough". It shows a lack of understanding of the game.
Maybe all Stanley Cup games should be reduced to a single game, winner take all. Or the Olympic tourney be reformatted so that there is no bracket play. Did you ever notice how similar the Bloomington Tourney format is to the Olympics?
So my first point is the Bloomington Format is tougher then Edina's. It is constant with hockey as a game and it is recognized as the best way to chose a champion from a diverse set of teams meeting together for the first time.
My second question is how many teams were in the hunt after the first day and after the second day in the Edina Tourney? I give my answer first this time. Four had to be down and out by my count after the first day and two more were added after the second with two more barely hanging on.
That means half of the games mean little to at least one team after the first round. A team that is out of it, especially peewee's don't play with the same energy. Nobody was out after two rounds of pool play (16 teams) in the Bloomington Tourney going into the third round.
Under the Edina Format, a team could travel from California to Michigan, play the next day, lose and they might as well pack up and go home. That's not "tough". It shows a lack of understanding of the game.
Maybe all Stanley Cup games should be reduced to a single game, winner take all. Or the Olympic tourney be reformatted so that there is no bracket play. Did you ever notice how similar the Bloomington Tourney format is to the Olympics?
So my first point is the Bloomington Format is tougher then Edina's. It is constant with hockey as a game and it is recognized as the best way to chose a champion from a diverse set of teams meeting together for the first time.
My second question is how many teams were in the hunt after the first day and after the second day in the Edina Tourney? I give my answer first this time. Four had to be down and out by my count after the first day and two more were added after the second with two more barely hanging on.
That means half of the games mean little to at least one team after the first round. A team that is out of it, especially peewee's don't play with the same energy. Nobody was out after two rounds of pool play (16 teams) in the Bloomington Tourney going into the third round.
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crossovers8
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:38 pm
F61,
Why are you so hung up on format? We are happy that the Eastview's and Highland's of the world got a chance to play on in Bloomington, but I think most people still judge the strength of a tournament by the quality of the teams participating. Top teams look for the best competition they can find. Period. A silver stick point system doesn't outweigh a lack of high quality teams.
Why are you so hung up on format? We are happy that the Eastview's and Highland's of the world got a chance to play on in Bloomington, but I think most people still judge the strength of a tournament by the quality of the teams participating. Top teams look for the best competition they can find. Period. A silver stick point system doesn't outweigh a lack of high quality teams.
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frederick61
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:54 pm
Crossover, it is not about the quality of teams yet, it is about format of playing 6 or 7 games in six days to crown a champion where each game means something to both teams. That is a grind.
Before we get to the quality of teams, I have one more point on format, that is Association commitment. The Bloomington Associations have shown a commitment to hockey in this state by having a six day tourney of this type for Peewee A and B and Bantam A and B levels. There is no other tourney like it in the state. I believe Edina has not been willing to dedicate six days of their facilities and have tried to sell the public on the quality of teams instead. In doing so, it is in their interest to minimize a competing tourney being played at the same time. For me, it’s not working. But I understand Marketing 101, if you going to offer less, you work to make it appear to the public to be more.
Now, let’s talk about the quality of teams, a subjective matter at best. But I have to ask another question first. Do you agree that the peewee teams are development teams? Kids are learning to play hockey and that peewee’s especially will develop during the season? By that I mean a player playing summer hockey will have an advantage the first six weeks or so until the non-summer players catch-up.
Before we get to the quality of teams, I have one more point on format, that is Association commitment. The Bloomington Associations have shown a commitment to hockey in this state by having a six day tourney of this type for Peewee A and B and Bantam A and B levels. There is no other tourney like it in the state. I believe Edina has not been willing to dedicate six days of their facilities and have tried to sell the public on the quality of teams instead. In doing so, it is in their interest to minimize a competing tourney being played at the same time. For me, it’s not working. But I understand Marketing 101, if you going to offer less, you work to make it appear to the public to be more.
Now, let’s talk about the quality of teams, a subjective matter at best. But I have to ask another question first. Do you agree that the peewee teams are development teams? Kids are learning to play hockey and that peewee’s especially will develop during the season? By that I mean a player playing summer hockey will have an advantage the first six weeks or so until the non-summer players catch-up.
It doesn't matter on the format , because it was so loopsided on the competition. AV, Chaska, Eagan, Coon Rapids vs Tartan, Highland, Rogers, Kennedy, Eastview, Buffalo, Moundsview and North Metro..?
Why stop at 7 games to reach the championship..? Your AV team should have Played Kennedy and Buffalo - 3 more times to rack up some goals and wins - Is that good for the kids?
If the Bloomington Tourney had the TOP 6 from the Edina tourney in place
of the bottom 8 that I mention above - That would be a tourney!
The first 4 should have played each other the whole time to see you was going win. Atleast in the Edina tourney you had a more "balanced" teams in it.
The Edina tourney you can lose once and still be in it - You just have to come back stronger the next 4 games and "tough" teams do that. My point being: Bring your best game to the Best Minnesota Christmas PeeWee tourney No matter what the "format" is.
Why stop at 7 games to reach the championship..? Your AV team should have Played Kennedy and Buffalo - 3 more times to rack up some goals and wins - Is that good for the kids?
If the Bloomington Tourney had the TOP 6 from the Edina tourney in place
of the bottom 8 that I mention above - That would be a tourney!
The first 4 should have played each other the whole time to see you was going win. Atleast in the Edina tourney you had a more "balanced" teams in it.
The Edina tourney you can lose once and still be in it - You just have to come back stronger the next 4 games and "tough" teams do that. My point being: Bring your best game to the Best Minnesota Christmas PeeWee tourney No matter what the "format" is.
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DumpandChase1
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:37 pm
I have to agree with the SuperStar. The format of a tournament is not as important as the teams involved. Bloomington is the only tourny that does this format, just about everyone else does the round robin and takes the top teams and a wild card.
Besides, 6 days to complete a tounament is too long, that is way no out of town teams go to Bloomington. 5 nights in a hotel, days off work, that might be tough for a city team. Also 16 teams is too many, quality not quantity. I would rather play 3 good teams, than 6 games and only play 1 good team.
Besides, 6 days to complete a tounament is too long, that is way no out of town teams go to Bloomington. 5 nights in a hotel, days off work, that might be tough for a city team. Also 16 teams is too many, quality not quantity. I would rather play 3 good teams, than 6 games and only play 1 good team.
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crossovers8
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:38 pm
F61,
1. More games doesn't mean the tournament is stonger when far too many of those games are a blow (case in point: Chaska; their pool was pretty intense huh!??). The final 4 teams at Edina played 5 quality games, and as Edina did a decent job at balancing the brackets. Most would agree that they really were the four best teams at the tournament.
2. No one is questioning the commitment of the Bloomington Association. They put on a fine tournament.
3. A first day loss didn't automatically mean a team is eliminated. Lakeville North lost its first game to CO TBirds, but fought back and played hard the remaing games, including a 5-5 tie with Wayzata in their 3rd game. No, they didn't advance, but they were in the mix. Don't tell me those games didn't still mean something to those kids. I didn't see any teams in that tournament lay down. Besides, there is nothing wrong with a team having to bring its game each time, or else.... it forces teams to prepare and focus everytime on the ice.
4. I love the "more games = more development" argument. Development happens in practice, plain and simple. It comes down to good coaching and teaching. Some programs do a better job at it than others. You can play games until you're blue in the face and not necessarily develop the skills you need to grow as a hockey player.
1. More games doesn't mean the tournament is stonger when far too many of those games are a blow (case in point: Chaska; their pool was pretty intense huh!??). The final 4 teams at Edina played 5 quality games, and as Edina did a decent job at balancing the brackets. Most would agree that they really were the four best teams at the tournament.
2. No one is questioning the commitment of the Bloomington Association. They put on a fine tournament.
3. A first day loss didn't automatically mean a team is eliminated. Lakeville North lost its first game to CO TBirds, but fought back and played hard the remaing games, including a 5-5 tie with Wayzata in their 3rd game. No, they didn't advance, but they were in the mix. Don't tell me those games didn't still mean something to those kids. I didn't see any teams in that tournament lay down. Besides, there is nothing wrong with a team having to bring its game each time, or else.... it forces teams to prepare and focus everytime on the ice.
4. I love the "more games = more development" argument. Development happens in practice, plain and simple. It comes down to good coaching and teaching. Some programs do a better job at it than others. You can play games until you're blue in the face and not necessarily develop the skills you need to grow as a hockey player.
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frederick61
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:54 pm
I believe the debate is on which is a tougher tournament, Bloomington or Edina. Not the economics of it. But I would point out that it is a mistake to say you play six games and play only one good team at the Bloomington format. That is more likely to occur at the Edina tourney because their ablility of the organizers to guarantee quality teams is seriously been hampered. There were no double digits victories at the Bloomington Tourney and every team entered had to fight every minute of every game played for every point won.DumpandChase1 wrote:I have to agree with the SuperStar. The format of a tournament is not as important as the teams involved. Bloomington is the only tourny that does this format, just about everyone else does the round robin and takes the top teams and a wild card.
Besides, 6 days to complete a tounament is too long, that is way no out of town teams go to Bloomington. 5 nights in a hotel, days off work, that might be tough for a city team. Also 16 teams is too many, quality not quantity. I would rather play 3 good teams, than 6 games and only play 1 good team.