Private schools be allowed to have their own association?

[elliott70]

Should private schools be allowed to register as an association with MN Hockey? Under limited circumstances?

[philip18]

Blake does now with a Bantam B1 team.

[pond 15]

Why not? What are you afraid of? Minnesota hockey is geared to high school hockey remember! Or is it just public high school

[elliott70]

Blake does now with a Bantam B1 team.

Yes, I know.
What I am looking for are reasonable arguments for or against or in between.
I am looking for general feelings (thus the poll) without having to express yourself.

[elliott70]

Why not? What are you afraid of? Minnesota hockey is geared to high school hockey remember! Or is it just public high school

I fear but one thing, but that is for a different type of forum discussion.
What I am looking for are reasons for, against etc....

I know what the Minnesota Hockey heirarchy believes and their whys and why-nots.

I am looking for the people that I cannot talk to on regualr basis.

[Pucknutz69]

Or let them start the Catholic school league again. I don't think it is a bad thing that they are playing with the hs they attend. It would also eliminate the situation like Stillwater had last year. Kids can play basketball, soccer, baseball and football in some cases for private elementary schools why not hockey?

[thattababy]

I don't think they (.

[whockeyguy]

ok Elliot heres one, who will be accountable, the privates usually run it through the school , no parents, {which some may say is good}, no board for accountabilty, What happens if a coach, parent, player goes nutz , who do you go back to , ive already seen it happen this year,.. then you make hte complaint to the school and they say they will check into it,, Ya, a school administration checking into something, give me a break, all they know is CYA

[PointBlank]

Thanks for asking Elliott!!

I agree with thatababy. In my opinion, the best option would be to have Community based youth hockey through Bantams. HOWEVER, how can Minnesota Hockey look out for the interests of the kids. (I see MAHA as looking out for kids and the good of hockey). Adults (Coaches and Associations) start grooming "their" turf and it's the kids that lose. If Minnesota Hockey cannot have a way to look out for the kids inside the community base hockey associations, then I think the only other option is to allow equal but separate programs for kids in other programs. By that I mean Bantam A on down. And for all the public programs that sqwack, you can't have it both ways. The Stillwater situation where they cut (punished) a talented returning goalie from the A team for 2 weaker kids because he was going to Hill, and yet wouldn't release the B2 kid that wanted to go play at STA's programs -- they had his mom hollering all over tryouts.

When an Association chooses to stop allowing a player to develop, that is when hopefully Minnesota Hockey sees an opportunity or a need for them to intervene. People say there is a grievance process, but realistically, there is not. Evaluators say the kid had a bad try out, and case closed.

I say first find a way to oversee it, or else separate it.

[elliott70]

ok Elliot heres one, who will be accountable, the privates usually run it through the school , no parents, {which some may say is good}, no board for accountabilty, What happens if a coach, parent, player goes nutz , who do you go back to , ive already seen it happen this year,.. then you make hte complaint to the school and they say they will check into it,, Ya, a school administration checking into something, give me a break, all they know is CYA

Based on current MN Hockey rules the 'association' has to meet certain requirements. Such as:
being a 501(c)(3) IRS organization...
having an elected governing body that has recourse for grievance...
participation in the cognizant district...
being governed by MN Hockey....

Not to say the CYA thing could not happen...
an argument against...

[jancze5]

Elliott...

I'd be "FOR" a private school Bantam league. Even if it were Bantam A or B1.
Thus those kids who are leaving the Stillwaters or wherever are already in position to be gone. It's a possible WIN-WIN because the association losing the player will hopefully lose him at 1st year Bantams as he plays for his school team...less drama about who's staying or going. Bottom line, the kid is most likely leaving as it is for educational (or hockey) purposes...depending on who you ask.

2nd...accountability would still lie within MNHOCK, don't see why the state governing body can't do the same with this "district/leage".

3rd...on the flip side, a kid might not choose to play for his school team just becasue there is one. What if he lives in a great association area and doesnt' want to leave a team certain to be on top his/her league? Therefore leaving a school with the possibility of not being able to field a team at all. THis could happen.

4th...Having the option would be great. America is about options. It's also about who your option would affect and what they will do to stop you from having this option.

5th...WHY NOT HAVE A FRESHMAN LEAGUE ACCROSS THE STATE? Not JV, but freshman. A year where schools can actually see who is there and gauge themselves going forward. Let the sophmores and juniors play JV. If a private school has 7th and 8ths graders, they can play for the Freshman team. Just a thought...No freshman play Varsity, period. No matter how much you think you're the next Sid.

THanks for offering this as a topic of discussion. Hopefully you'll get some good feedback.

[ninety5]

It should be a simple question of what is best for the kids. My arguement for the ability to form more teams (privates included) does not have anything to do with hockey. Ask yourself what is best for a 14 year old. Getting out of school, walking across the street for an hour of practice and then home for dinner and homework. Or, taking the bus home, 45 minutes or more, driving to the rink, 20 minutes or more, practice and then home. And since most communities share the ice, practice may be very late making dinner and home work more erratic.

I have seen both sides of this debate based on where I grew up and where I am now. It's easy to say private schools shouldn't be able to form teams, but it should not be because they are "stealing" kids. If it is more convenient, a better experience or whatever else, the kid should be able to choose. More teams equate to more opportunities for kids and that is a good thing. Plus, it builds rivalries that extend into high school and get people on this board talking. If it's better for kids, let them have teams.

[philip18]

I think a child should have to play a sport, if available in their school/school district, , for the school or school district they attend be it public or private. If they open enroll or attend a private school that is where they play if that school has that sport. If not the next option is to play where they live. Why have the private schools live by different rules than public?

[lxhockey]

I would establish guidelines that would limit the private youth teams to B1 only AND ensure they have adequate ice hours available that does not impact established youth hockey associations. Let the final discretion be up to the District Director with a renewal review every x number of years.

[egf hockey1]

Fargo Angels are a feeder program for Shanley HS. They began their own youth program so that they had an idea of what numbers they had coming into the program. If the kids are going to go to school there, wouldn't it be a help if the kids were able to play together at the youth level.

[taxi43]

I would vote yes, why limit it to public schools ? It would give more kids, more opportunities to play.

It would however reduce the size of some of the public school based associations. Hopkins and Mpls*Park seem to be particularly keen to reducing their numbers even more.

A question though, how would the boundaries for the privates be set up? It is pretty easy with the public schools boundaries ... but not so easy with the privates ..

[tomASS]

I have no problem with the idea however, wouldn't numbers remain fairly low at each competitive group level thus the talent range would be vary somewhat making it difficult to supply the top level players the proper development at the right competitive level without affecting the lower ability level players chances to succeed.

Maybe Pee Wee and above?

[Can't Never Tried]

I could see the establishment of private power teams if this were to be done, Like AAA is doing now.
If people want something bad enough, and have the $ they will make it happen.

Free country though...ain't it great

[Charliedog]

I used to believe that this would solve most of the private/public problems. Now that I am actually faced with properly answering the question I am not so sure.

More than half the kids (at least this is the case at Hill) who attend private schools do not begin until 9th grade which is typically 2nd year bantams. Assuming that most kids would stay with their youth associations until they start high school, this doesn't solve the "mass exodus" to privates in 9th grade. Also we must keep in mind that there are not enough private spots available for all the kids who tryout.

Where do they play if they don't make team because tryouts would conceivably be at the same time. Maybe this is one of life's little risks.

What would be the reasons for holding privates to a B team and not letting them go A?

****I absolutely applaud the earlier posters idea for a 9th grade team, but Elliot I would use this only for privates because they have less kids to chose from and also this is the age group that causes most of the issues with the local associations. I looked at rosters from the Schwan's Cup JV teams and with the exception of one or two public schools kids, most of younger kids were from privates. Let the private schools form 9th grade teams and so what if they have to play each other 4 times instead of twice. This gives the 10th and 11th graders and opportunity to play for their school and isn't that what high school sports is all about?

I suppose if a 9th grade league was formed it would fall under the direction of the high schools and not of Minnesota Hockey. (unless it was formed as a U16 league under its own district)

Regardless of the board's final decision, something has to be done about association coaches who tell their A bantams that they will be kicked off the team if they are caught trying out for their private school. This is just not right!

Thanks for asking.....

[PointBlank]

As I stated earlier, ultimately I am for the Association Hockey. However, if the private schools need to have separate youth associations to protect the kids interests, I agree that programs for private schools would be more affective at the older levels (Pee Wee or Bantams) since most kids do not leave until 9th grade. That would make the boundary issue more clear. Try out for the program associated with the school you are attending. No "double dipping" with tryouts,so to speak.

I also feel strongly that kids should have consistent rules throughout hockey. If an 8th grader at STA cannot play varsity, then an 8th grader in Sartel should not be able to play varsity. I think a 9th grade team would be crazy. Holy Angels has a huge number of 9th graders playing Varsity because the team needs them there. Kids should get to play at the level appropriate for their development.

And lastly, if private schools have their own programs, they should be able to establish the appropriate level of play. Why penalize them and only allow a B team, if they will develop most at the A level. Small programs are not limited. I understand that the attempt is to stop monopolies on talent, but look at EP or Centennial. No one suggests that they must have multiple A teams to even out the playing levels. Kids should play at the level they will best develop. It is about the kids... not the adults.

[BoogeyMan]

I could see the establishment of private power teams if this were to be done, Like AAA is doing now.
If people want something bad enough, and have the $ they will make it happen.

Free country though...ain't it great

CNT- Is private power teams a bad thing? What would you call Holy Angels, Shattuck, Breck, Blake, TG, BSM, Cretin and Hill at the high school level? Who cares if they do it a couple years before high school?

Let me explain something. Sports is all about winning. When you sign up to play on a team. The entire teams goal is to win. The question should be. At what cost?

Lets not lose focus on what we're saying here. Instead of asking if something should be allowed.
Everyone needs to answer:
Why are players leaving certain associations in the first place

I know its hard for some to admit. But it all comes down to winning.
If you reply to this post. Please explain your thoughts on why kids are leaving their associations. This is what the main concern should be.

PEACE!

[flatontheice]

It's a very simple answer if you really care about the kids: More Bantam A teams at any level means more kids playing Bantam A hockey at higher level. The entire level of hockey in the state would increase. More kids would develop. In addition to that, more energy would be spent bitching about something else. Free Enterprise is what this country was built on, why do we stop short when it comes to hockey. Northwestern Bell is no longer a company because we de-regulated the telephone monopoly. Your rates are cheaper and services much better. More people fly today because we de-regulated the monopoly. MAHA walks a dangerous walk. Their time of dictatorship and monopoly is coming to an end. Just look at what the FIRE have done, what Bernie is going to do, and look at how many kids are making other choices besides MAHA hockey. It is a train that is slowly pulling out of the station, but it is leaving.

[jancze5]

Boogs...

My son is not playing for his local association and staying in the High School because the school has a million kids and his education will be a check the block A B C answer. Instead he is attending a private for NONHOCKEY reasons considering he entered as an 8th grader and is an average hockey player at best. So hockey is most likely not in the equation for his future, as is the case for most kids. His school sends more than 90% of it's Seniors over the last 5 years to first college of choice. While public schools have dedicated teachers and equally passionate administrators and they are our friends and family, in a small percentage of folks, we just would prefer our kids go to a small school that has less social implications from being surrounded by so many Joneses kids are trying to keep up with. If hockey people can take the hockey out of the equation and rather just see a kid, I think they'd have a less "they're stealing our players" attitude.

[RLStars]

A problem that I see has more to do with a MSHSL problem then a MN Hockey problem.

The MSHSL has made a change to its transfer rules to try and cut down on the number of kids leaving for greener pastures and better teams. Its pretty much public to private school jumping and the appearance of some super teams being created in the process. I believe that the MSHSL enacted the new transfer rules for other sports more then for hockey. I've heard basketball was one of the worst for this practice. The rules should cut down on any recruiting that may be going on of upper classmen.

As it is now, a transfer to a school outside of the public school district you live in AFTER ninth grade will invoke the one year varsity penalty at the new school. This makes hockey somewhat unique as traditionally a ninth grade student doesn't play HS hockey, they participate under a different system altogether. Ninth grade is still bantams for most kids playing hockey. In other sports, there are freshman and sophmore teams for kids to play on, because there is nowhere else to play. Wouldn't that open the door for some serious recruiting?

MN Hockey (to my knowledge) doesn't have a recruiting policy, just a waiver policy, and doesn't have any ties to High School hockey. The MSHSL doesn't have any authority over MN hockey and its youth programs. This would allow privates to actively recruit for their youth teams and roll over into HS teams. All the recruiting would be done in eight and ninth grade, thats when the privates want them anyway.

Lets take it a step further, I can see the top private schools (everyone knows who they are) taking the top youth association players and after dominating at the youth level, as well as the HS level, turning their programs into a USA HockeyTier 1 association just like Shattuck. Granted, it won't be right away, but if it does, you can say good-bye to community based and HS hockey as we know it.

[flatontheice]

Lets take it a step further, I can see the top private schools (everyone knows who they are) taking the top youth association players and after dominating at the youth level, as well as the HS level, turning their programs into a USA HockeyTier 1 association just like Shattuck. Granted, it won't be right away, but if it does, you can say good-bye to community based and HS hockey as we know it.

You can say good-bye anyway.