Private schools be allowed to have their own association?

[watchdog]

why should a school thats allowed to recruit have a place in minnesota hockey? im not even sold on the privates being aloud to play in the high school hockey tourney yet. seems to me they get a free pass from all the rules the rest of the teams live by. its a huge political sham that allows these teams to even participate.

[ninety5]

careful watchdog.

a close look at rosters of the past will show not only the town to the east had players on its HS team that did not grow up in town.

this is not an issue of recruiting, simply adding options for kids that may need something mroe.

boundries are easily defined by where school is attended. goalies may be an exception as they are currently with MN Hockey.

[Can't Never Tried]

I could see the establishment of private power teams if this were to be done, Like AAA is doing now.
If people want something bad enough, and have the $ they will make it happen.

Free country though...ain't it great

CNT- Is private power teams a bad thing? What would you call Holy Angels, Shattuck, Breck, Blake, TG, BSM, Cretin and Hill at the high school level? Who cares if they do it a couple years before high school?

Let me explain something. Sports is all about winning. When you sign up to play on a team. The entire teams goal is to win. The question should be. At what cost?

Lets not lose focus on what we're saying here. Instead of asking if something should be allowed.
Everyone needs to answer:
Why are players leaving certain associations in the first place

I know its hard for some to admit. But it all comes down to winning.
If you reply to this post. Please explain your thoughts on why kids are leaving their associations. This is what the main concern should be.

PEACE!

RLStars post pretty much sums it up.

I don't care about building power teams at the HS level but apparently MSHSL did so they clamped down on it.

But doing it at the youth level I don't agree with.

Many more players stay in their associations, then leave, so don't make it seem like everyone is leaving...you just left!
BTW...
Who would these private power teams play? Other MN youth A teams?
Why? Just to kick axe on them? Or just the little circle of these new private teams over and over?
And no at youth sports it's not all about winning...in your mind yes.
In anyone that has a clue it's not.
High School yes it's about winning, College yes, Pro yes.
Youth = fun and learning with a healthy dose of competition, win at all cost..??? no they need to learn to lose with dignity, and win with humility and that is a life lesson.

[windtomyback]

I haven't been tuned in to all of the pros and cons of this debate, but my first instinct says that it would be a good thing to open up more spots in association hockey for this age group. Kids playing at their private school and leaving more Bantam openings at the association might mean the association teams wouldn't win as many games, but certainly more kids would have a chance to develop their skills at this critical age.

[watchdog]

careful about what? i could careless if warroad recruits players thats their choice. as for roseau we had an exchange student last year that i believe was brought in. beyond that i know roseau doesnt recruit anyone. people move here at times to play hockey for roseau their not recruited. those are even a small few over the years. were talking about entire teams put together theirs no comparison. you have the fire running around beating their chest everyweek like their something special. whats special about it? you have every advantage to go around finding someone to fill every hole. special is to have a group of home grown kids that dont have every hole filled but find a way to work together and become winners. thats what its all about. thats what the state tourney is all about. its about representing your communitie and going to war for the guy sitting next to ya. as soon as you go around and start getting one from here and one from their you defeat the whole purpose of what i think a team is at the youth and highschool level. the only exceptable reason for these teams are for kids in associations that either have no hockey or only have hockey at the b level. if these teams were filled with kids like that id be all for it. its not that way its one from ep,jefferson,edina,white bear ect....... its a joke to me its a place for the misfits that couldnt get along with anyone where they were playing. thats not the case everytime but it is alot of the time. oh you wont put my kid on that line with these players fine ill just go play for the fire see how you like that attitude. thats eastern hockey at its finest thats all they do their jump from one team to the next trying to figure out a way to get what they want. in the end they graduate and go to work just like everyone else. well its the system the coaches the ice time its all this b.s. if your son is good enough to be recruited to the fire than surely where he is playing must be doing the job? i guess i cant really say because im not totally aware of the in and outs of metro hockey. what i do know is alot of good hockey players are made in those associations. if you look at the numbers and do some research you will find that with the percentage of kids that move on come from all over even the association that never produce good teams

[flatontheice]

careful about what? i could careless if warroad recruits players thats their choice. as for roseau we had an exchange student last year that i believe was brought in. beyond that i know roseau doesnt recruit anyone. people move here at times to play hockey for roseau their not recruited. those are even a small few over the years. were talking about entire teams put together theirs no comparison. you have the fire running around beating their chest everyweek like their something special. whats special about it? you have every advantage to go around finding someone to fill every hole. special is to have a group of home grown kids that dont have every hole filled but find a way to work together and become winners. thats what its all about. thats what the state tourney is all about. its about representing your communitie and going to war for the guy sitting next to ya. as soon as you go around and start getting one from here and one from their you defeat the whole purpose of what i think a team is at the youth and highschool level. the only exceptable reason for these teams are for kids in associations that either have no hockey or only have hockey at the b level. if these teams were filled with kids like that id be all for it. its not that way its one from ep,jefferson,edina,white bear ect....... its a joke to me its a place for the misfits that couldnt get along with anyone where they were playing. thats not the case everytime but it is alot of the time. oh you wont put my kid on that line with these players fine ill just go play for the fire see how you like that attitude. thats eastern hockey at its finest thats all they do their jump from one team to the next trying to figure out a way to get what they want. in the end they graduate and go to work just like everyone else. well its the system the coaches the ice time its all this b.s. if your son is good enough to be recruited to the fire than surely where he is playing must be doing the job? i guess i cant really say because im not totally aware of the in and outs of metro hockey. what i do know is alot of good hockey players are made in those associations. if you look at the numbers and do some research you will find that with the percentage of kids that move on come from all over even the association that never produce good teams

Wow...that was alot. Alot of parents send thier kids to private school so they can read and write too.

[ninety5]

yup, that's what i thought.

It's for the kids, plain and simple. The issue is not about recruiting, it will happen even if it's not requested. And yes, I happen to be aware of who has moved to town to play hockey.

The metro is a little different based on the sheer number of kids making these options more understandable. Not better, but needed.

This issue should not be lumped in with the north vs south, metro vs outstate or anything that will make people angry. It's an issue that needs to benefit kids, not parents.

[watchdog]

no you can goto most schools for that you just have to pay attention and actually want to learn... i didnt.

[thattababy]

[quote="watchdog"][quote]no

[elliott70]

no you can goto most schools for that you just have to pay attention and actually want to learn... i didnt

.

Not to take a shot at you WD But,the problem WD, are the kids who are like you were and are distracting the kids who actually are at school to learn. Not to mention the distraction and time drain those kids cause the teachers. My son wanted out of public for just those reasons. He misses seeing his old friends everyday, but knows that in the long run he will be better off for making the decision to attend a private school.Yes it was his decision, with his parents blessing of course.

And, Ninety5, I agree with you whole heartedly. Kids will continue to transfer wether the privates have ther own associations or not.

By what definiton?

Oh sorry, that's not the point of thread. I will try to keep it to hockey.

[hockeypops]

More than half the kids (at least this is the case at Hill) who attend private schools do not begin until 9th grade which is typically 2nd year bantams. Assuming that most kids would stay with their youth associations until they start high school, this doesn't solve the "mass exodus" to privates in 9th grade. Also we must keep in mind that there are not enough private spots available for all the kids who tryout.

Charlie dog

If that's the case than they aren't going there for the schooling. doesn't hill start in the 7th grade??? why wait? don't want the local association to know that's your plan because they'll pull a Stillwater?

No one replies to the core of WD's statement, which talks about pulling together as a team, not going out to find someone to help you win, but developing the heart to win yourself (to paraphrase a little) and to think I know that big word and all I have is a lowly public school education. Boogey, I don't even know you, but I would watch my back cause no one is going to be covering yours.

P.S. I am on the side of forcing the mega associations to have more A teams. Met many a kid that could easily play A other places and have to play B in those associations. spread the wealth, a little competition never hurt anybody, even if it's more competition for those coveted high school slots at the mega schools.[/i]

[thattababy]

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[elliott70]

I do not believe I have mentioned this.
Minnesota Hockey will be discussing this in committee on January 19th (if that is Saturday). So all relevant posts (in the form* - I support, because of this(these) reasons, or vice versa) here will be shared with the committee.


*Not necessarily like this, but I need to know that the post is for, against or somewhere in between. And I need logical reasoning. Rhetoric, pounding on the chest, or name-calling will not be useful.
And so far this touchy subjuect has been handled very well, so thank you.
Mark

[elliott70]

He misses seeing his old friends everyday, but knows that in the long run he will be better off for making the decision to attend a private school.Yes it was his decision, with his parents blessing of course.

By the definition that he and his teachers time at school is not being wasted by the distrations caused by kids who don't want to be there. Now back to hockey.

I do not disagree with the assumption, but knowledge of future events is a diificult course. The knowledge of missing his friends on the other hand, is a bird in hand. I hope (and I do not mean to intervene, but I cannot help being a grandpa) effort is being put into holding unto that bird.
As stated, back to hockey.

[Gump]

I've been following this discussion with great interest, and it seems that many are harboring deep felt animosity against private schools (even public school in one case) or a club team that they feel slighted them/their child in some way.

Let me admit that I have never liked the idea of private schools participating in the MSHL. I grew up disliking the Green and White powerhouse. The thought process was that they "recruited" the best players away from us and it wasn't fair. How sweet it was when someone would knock them off in the state tourney - what a rivalry!

Well, the times have changed. With open enrollment, it doesn't really matter anymore. Kids can choose to go to just about any school that they want to. If secret recruiting really does exist, then it doesn't matter if the school is public or private. It's been my experience that most recruiting occurs between the players and the parents, not the HS itself.

So, what could be the possible reason to not open youth hockey associations up to private schools? The only real reason was already stated - old grudges against private schools over past issues. Elliott left this discussion too wide open in not telling us what is under consideration - full assn hockey from mite through JG, Bantam only, or Bantam and JG only. So, our reactions are all over the place. It doesn't make much sense to form a HM mite program, but it makes a lot of sense to form Bantam and JG teams. It's been stated numerous times in this forum that; along with teaching hockey fundamentals, sportmanship, team play, ...; that Minnesota Hockey is strategically structured to feed the HS hockey programs. As such, what benefit is there to continue this strategy with players in your bantam program when they are not going to your local assn's HS (see Stillwater for a good example of how this can be addressed). Those few players that chose to attend a private school (or open enroll to another public school) should be released to play for their respective HS assn Bantam or JG teams. What's the worst that would happen to the local assn - assuming as everyone fears that a couple A players left, they would be able to move a couple B players up to the A team so that they could develop against the best competition and so on down the line through the C teams; HS rivalries would be created at the Bantam level, and more players would be able to develop at a higher level of play. And isn't that what everyone seems to want - let's develop the most players possible for our assn and HS teams?

Why would the local assns want to block this idea - simple, they are afraid that they will lose games to a neighboring assn! Isn't that why a waiver is so hard to get? Didn't someone say it's all about winning???

And why would MN Hockey want to block this idea - simple, the old powers that be are afraid that they will lose control of their mighty MN Hockey kingdom and their war lords will lose control at their respective districts and associations. Down the road, they are afraid that the private schools will next want to field Tier I Bantam teams. Well, too late. Word has already gotten out around the kingdom that there is a whole world of great hockey outside of Minnesota. There are actually national titles to be had. And, I've been told, the best players are coming from Michigan! How can this be???

Bottom line, creating more high level teams can only help more players develop into better players via better competition. If that means that Tier I programs take root and you must attend a private school to participate (SSM), then great. Let those few players choose that route and leave open opportunities in their absence.
And if Tier I should take root throughout the kingdom because of this action - then great, better competition and opportunity for all concerned. Maybe MN can claim a Natl Title and prove that the best come from the State of Hockey and not Michigan.

[Charliedog]

Hockeypops....this is just FYI to respond to the first part of your reply Hill-Murray has a limited enrollment for 7th and 8th grade. i believe the number cap is 80 students per grade. In high school this number rises to about 200-230 per grade. Another contributing factor to not attend before high school is the cost. Parochial K-8 runs from about $1000 to $1500 per year versus Hill which I think is about $8500 for middle school.

[watchdog]

also one more thing to add its not open enrollment any longer. you cant just pick up your hockey bag show up in edina and play. on another note your son switched to private school because of the screw offs? i hardley doubt that was the problem heck i didnt give people or teaches that much of a problem i slept in class.. now if your son is in a school full of crime and they need metal detectors at the door i could see that for a good reason. it really doesnt matter education whatever. the point is or my point was not how a kid ends up in hill but do they or should they have the right to compete in the state tourney. i think they should be aloud to have all the teams they want but in the end their not allowed to play in the state tourneys because they dont have to live by the same rules as the rest of the teams. heck why dont the citie blades,machine,ice men,fire teams just jump into the state tourneys as well? why dont we just go east coast and jump from one teams to the next some kids pay (the good ones dont) so for my final comments on the subject if the kids arent ther to play hockey than it should be just fine to play hockey all year like any other association team and stay out of all state tournament play. they get all that plus what they really wanted the (better education)