Mega, A, B, Small B, C and house

[Air Force 1]

I do think that something needs to be done but I don’t think it has to be as dramatic as a complete overhaul or tossing out of the entire MN youth hockey and MSHSL system. In all this I hear me, me, me, me, and honestly, it has a metro flavor because of the numbers that the metro has. This is no news flash, Minnesota goes as the metro goes, NW Minnesota is everything north and west of St. Cloud. Yes, Edina has 12 squirt teams and only one is an “A”, darn that kid on the 5th “B” team won’t get drafted in the first round because he won’t be able to play the best. I read that D6 offered them a solution but it did not fit what the association had in mind so instead of affording 15 or so of those 185 Squirt Bs the chance to be on a second A team, they refused the offer and those kids now probably kick the living tar out of D6 B teams and the parents/association continue to complain. What would the difference be if they formed 2 “equal” A teams or 1-15 and 16-30 teams, what, games that would be 1-3 goals closer?

I don’t hear Brainerd, or Austin, or Cloquet, or Moorhead complaining about the current system. I see things said like “the kids want to play the best”, true, they probably do, but do they honestly voice their opinions to their parents, coaches, address association board that they feel their schedule isn’t tough enough? Do they? Do they really do that? My 12 year old Pee Wee A has never said to me that we need to get the Wild or the Gophers on the schedule because our schedule isn’t tough enough for him to realize his dreams of 1st overall pick in the 2012 draft. I see some great players on his team that before and after a game are worried about what movie they are going to watch at whose house later that evening. My kids like to fish, and go camping, and ride four wheeler and play Playstation, hunt, and play football and baseball AND play hockey, and they are pretty good at all of it. Most of all, my kids like to be kids.

I can hear it now, as some of you are reading this you are screaming at your computer screen saying that my kid doesn’t deserve to be the #1 overall pick in ’12 because we are not committed enough. So be it. There was a good article in USA Hockey Magazine a couple years ago about 150 kids in a lecture bowl at St. Cloud State during a festival for 15 or 16 year olds. 3 kids were selected and asked to stand up. The lecturer said to the group that these 3 players represented the number of players out of those 150 that had a CHANCE to play pro, not NHL, just pro. I work hard and do everything I can so that my kids can do what is fun for them. I pay a lot of money to make sure that we take every advantage of what is offered to us and have gone out of my way to find opportunities. So if that isn’t committed enough I guess I am the worst father there is.

I don’t see the “A” level as having that many problems. Sure adjustments can be made but I don’t see the need to come up with a confusing new structure simply to hold more district, regional, and state tournaments. Being a champion says something about a program/team, that you worked hard, sacrificed, achieved, maybe over achieved, and had a little luck along the way. If your program/team has not climbed to your desired amount of success, you either have to accept the results or figure out a way to get better, not whine and complain and water down the standard so that as some have said, everybody gets a trophy and can say they are champion.

Like I started, I don’t see a lot of problem at the “A” level except in bigger associations, like Edina, where they obviously have the numbers and with that the talent to field probably 5 “A” teams. So let them do it, but that is not going to work, we need a program that works STATEWIDE! It is MINNESOTA HOCKEY, NOT METRO HOCKEY! I like the suggestions that a second or subsequent “A” team can be fielded based on thresholds of participants at that level, say for every 75 players, you can field one “A” team, and that’s the way it is, even if you have 1,000 players for that level!

I see a bigger issue with “B” teams. In a smaller association, the B is “all others, from #16-can barely skate”, for some associations, it is all they have, they have 1-4 “A” level players but the rest are “Bs” at best. We had that last year when our B played Wayzata Gold in at tournament. I don’t think it is a secret that Wayzata Gold would have run the table in D16 Pee Wee B last year, but under the current system, that’s the cards that we’re dealt. Now if we allowed more “A” teams, Wayzata Gold would have been an “A” last year, as probably would Wayzata Blue and we could have competed better against their 3rd or 4th “B” or matched up with their upper “C” team. BUT we didn’t start screaming that the system needs to be overhauled or thrown out.

If AAA Tier I is such a good thing and your little Johnny is just too bored scoring his 8 goals and 5 assists per game on a team that is beating all comers 25-0, and his team finishes 52-0 and wins state title after state title, AND your checkbook can support it, GO! And I will watch him on draft day when he walks up on stage and I will be applauding from my living room, I really will.

Flame Away!

AF1

[Gump]

I have no knowledge about the D4/D8 merger, but at first thought it doesn't sound like one of the better ideas that I've heard. I agree that the rational of this and how it fits within the goals of MN Hockey need to be addressed and understood. Isn't there another thread relating to this?

However, I don't agree that the Tier I idea should be shelved until the district and regional association topics have been put to rest. Tier I does address important open issues and can be used to help solve districting and association issues.

It's all one big mess and we need to be open to all options, and parts there of, to solve it. It's my understanding that the MN Hock goal is to put together a comprehensive plan relating to demographics, populations, location, ... and find a balance that creates the most opportunity and the best competition possible.

Let's keep an open mind in this process and not let our selfish interests cloud good judgement. And let's hope that MN Hock does the same.

Good Luck to us all!

[WatchDog'sRight]

Air Force - best post on the whole thread - of course I'm from D16 also - so what would I know.

[wheels]

So the idea is to level the competition field among the associations that have the largest to the smallest pools of players.

Great idea, but it does nothing for those stand out players from the smaller associations. They would now be missing out on the opportunity to play against the best overall competition - likely a Mega Association top team. This does nothing for their development or their team's development.

The best option to fix this growing problem is to introduce 3 or 4 regional Tier I options to the state for all to have the option of participation (I know this is a sore topic for many, but structured and managed properly it is the correct solution). This would likely remove some of the top players from the Mega Associations and give new opportunity to the best few in smaller associations. Some disparity will still exist among a few large associations and this can be addressed with the AA (Mega Association), A, B1, B2, ... concept or simply creating a second A team at all levels. It is a winning situation in which more players will be playing against even competition and be able to develop and practice their skills most effectively.

Gump or I mean Elliott I can't tell who is behind
the mask ? You tell me why this isn't the best idea ever posted or did you
take my idea that you would not post on this site yesterday and come up
with this all on your own ? either way who cares Tier 1 Belongs in Mn...
THE GREAT STATE OF HOCKEY AND NO TIER 1 AAA ? IT IS WRONG
HOCKEYTOWN USA MICHIGAN TIER 1 AAA .. IS TAKING OUR TROPHIES.
U-18 Tier 1 Nationals = 80 games
U-16 Tier 1 Nationals = 70 games
U-14 Tier 1 Nationals = 65 games
U-12 Tier 1 Nationals = 65 games
High School state championship 28 games
elite league I hate to tell you is no Tier 1 Caliber of competition.....
And I know this hurts but neither is High school...........
YOU HAVE ALREADY LET SHATTUCK ST MARYS BE TIER 1
and yes they have brought home a few trophies but I will
go on and talk about what you would not post yesterday and
that is the MONOPOLY OF THE MARKETPLACE.. These are kids
who want to play high caliber hockey and you feel like you OWN
them and that they must fight for you and your Team. We are not
traders we are just looking to provide the best oppurtunities for all
of the kids who play the great game of hockey and can't afford to go
and spend $ 40,000 a year to go to Shattuck. It is called oppurtunities
and why would we want to limit the kids from at least having the chance
to choose what oppurtunities they wish to pursue. Why is it that you need
to decide for them ? are they under contract to you and all of Mn Hockey
NO so what is the problem..

Count me in on this one. People should have options and freedom to do what they want and a tier 1 option should be an option.

[jancze5]

Having vast AAA background, I don't think it's the answer. I know this surprises all of my fans/friends here. Tier 1 would have a really tough time up north/northwest/west/south. Having Tier 1 in the TC's where the bodies are is one thing, but in the more rural areas, it would basically destroy the associations. Keeping it in perspective, is that what Minnesota wants?

At the same time, offering or allowing sanctioned AAA to a limited number of pre-qualified programs wouldn't hurt the overall experience of what the state offers. Offering it on a limited basis and ONLY at certain age groups, like PW Major and Bantam MAJOR is doable. You're talking about a limited # of kids. And they would come...don't be a fool if you think they wouldn't. Although it might not be the best kids, it may be kid 5,9 and 12 out of one association, while another loses 1, B3 and B45..so who knows.

I don't know, I'm a AAA supporter and association backer, so I see the benefit of both and where they're special. Rampant open AAA is NOT the answer though. Personally, NOT AAA, but Birth year hockey that mirrors the rest of the country. I say that because only a handful of players play once they're in 10th grade anyway, so why cater 8 years of growth for so many kids when only a handful are going to still be there in the end.

With that, why not entertaing Midget Major/ Midget minor in lieu of Junior Gold? Santion Tier 1 at the older levels. Where it's actually feasible and the kids aren't kids but young men and alot more capable. Just an idea.

[Air Force 1]

So the idea is to level the competition field among the associations that have the largest to the smallest pools of players.

Great idea, but it does nothing for those stand out players from the smaller associations. They would now be missing out on the opportunity to play against the best overall competition - likely a Mega Association top team. This does nothing for their development or their team's development.

The best option to fix this growing problem is to introduce 3 or 4 regional Tier I options to the state for all to have the option of participation (I know this is a sore topic for many, but structured and managed properly it is the correct solution). This would likely remove some of the top players from the Mega Associations and give new opportunity to the best few in smaller associations. Some disparity will still exist among a few large associations and this can be addressed with the AA (Mega Association), A, B1, B2, ... concept or simply creating a second A team at all levels. It is a winning situation in which more players will be playing against even competition and be able to develop and practice their skills most effectively.

Gump or I mean Elliott I can't tell who is behind
the mask ? You tell me why this isn't the best idea ever posted or did you
take my idea that you would not post on this site yesterday and come up
with this all on your own ? either way who cares Tier 1 Belongs in Mn...
THE GREAT STATE OF HOCKEY AND NO TIER 1 AAA ? IT IS WRONG
HOCKEYTOWN USA MICHIGAN TIER 1 AAA .. IS TAKING OUR TROPHIES.
U-18 Tier 1 Nationals = 80 games
U-16 Tier 1 Nationals = 70 games
U-14 Tier 1 Nationals = 65 games
U-12 Tier 1 Nationals = 65 games
High School state championship 28 games
elite league I hate to tell you is no Tier 1 Caliber of competition.....
And I know this hurts but neither is High school...........
YOU HAVE ALREADY LET SHATTUCK ST MARYS BE TIER 1
and yes they have brought home a few trophies but I will
go on and talk about what you would not post yesterday and
that is the MONOPOLY OF THE MARKETPLACE.. These are kids
who want to play high caliber hockey and you feel like you OWN
them and that they must fight for you and your Team. We are not
traders we are just looking to provide the best oppurtunities for all
of the kids who play the great game of hockey and can't afford to go
and spend $ 40,000 a year to go to Shattuck. It is called oppurtunities
and why would we want to limit the kids from at least having the chance
to choose what oppurtunities they wish to pursue. Why is it that you need
to decide for them ? are they under contract to you and all of Mn Hockey
NO so what is the problem..

Count me in on this one. People should have options and freedom to do what they want and a tier 1 option should be an option.

So go! What is holding you back? Hang your shingle, name your team, put together your coaching staff(s), secure a facility, hold your tryouts, schedule your competition, write your check, and live happily ever after and the rest of us will just continue to knock the puck around the pond.

Did I see in another thread that the Mighty Fire are coming to the Roseau Pee Wee A tournament? The '95 Fire? They are going to travel all the way up to Roseau to put a lickin' on all those substandard programs their players are too good to play for? Are they that desparate for another trophy? These families put out all this cash and have such a awesome, nationally ranked AAA team but they continue to play down to competition my kid's team gets the priviledge to play almost every game? Now that's a great return on that investment!

[Soulforged]

Having vast AAA background, I don't think it's the answer. I know this surprises all of my fans/friends here. Tier 1 would have a really tough time up north/northwest/west/south. Having Tier 1 in the TC's where the bodies are is one thing, but in the more rural areas, it would basically destroy the associations. Keeping it in perspective, is that what Minnesota wants?

At the same time, offering or allowing sanctioned AAA to a limited number of pre-qualified programs wouldn't hurt the overall experience of what the state offers. Offering it on a limited basis and ONLY at certain age groups, like PW Major and Bantam MAJOR is doable. You're talking about a limited # of kids. And they would come...don't be a fool if you think they wouldn't. Although it might not be the best kids, it may be kid 5,9 and 12 out of one association, while another loses 1, B3 and B45..so who knows.

I don't know, I'm a AAA supporter and association backer, so I see the benefit of both and where they're special. Rampant open AAA is NOT the answer though. Personally, NOT AAA, but Birth year hockey that mirrors the rest of the country. I say that because only a handful of players play once they're in 10th grade anyway, so why cater 8 years of growth for so many kids when only a handful are going to still be there in the end.

With that, why not entertaing Midget Major/ Midget minor in lieu of Junior Gold? Santion Tier 1 at the older levels. Where it's actually feasible and the kids aren't kids but young men and alot more capable. Just an idea.

A very well articulated post, especially the reality that not all of the kids opting to participate in a limited Tier 1 league would be the most talented. I think it is important to keep attention on what is the best for the majority[/b] of youth hockey players, while still allowing options for the development of real elite players, not average players with elite pocketbooks. By the way the small school knocking off the large metro powehouse, or private school at state will never go out of style with the fans.

[skillbuilder]

AF1, the 95 fire are a young peewee team that is not invincible playing against PWA teams with 94's. Besides, it's the consistent level of talent top to bottom and the solid developmental model used in practices thats most attractive to those that feel development is achieved in that manner.

Jancze 5 has a balanced perspective having done both and should be a mediator in the battle I believe...

[jancze5]

Air Force 1..

how can you pimp a link to a AAA team on your signature block, but slam the Fire? Seems a little ironic, no? If you stop looking through clouded vision, you would just see the Fire as another team of kids and not as some threatening enemy during the Cold War with CCCP jerseys.

Oh, and AIM HIGH!!!

[TitanCoach]

Adding new Mega A level associations with their own state tournament isn't necessary. The next thing you know we'll have dozens of state tournaments at every level: Mega A, A, B1, B2, B3, B4, C1, C2, C3, C4 and so on. Just give them all a trophy at registration and start the summer hockey season.

I like the idea of large associations having more than one A team based on numbers of players registered. This gives more players a chance to play against other A teams and should be better competition. Out state teams and smaller associations still have their tradition and have a few new teams to play.

Along with this I like the idea of having the option to play tier 1. This should give even better competition and more players the option to play against A teams. Why not try this with a couple major bantam teams and see what happens?

[Air Force 1]

Air Force 1..

how can you pimp a link to a AAA team on your signature block, but slam the Fire? Seems a little ironic, no? If you stop looking through clouded vision, you would just see the Fire as another team of kids and not as some threatening enemy during the Cold War with CCCP jerseys.

Oh, and AIM HIGH!!!

Yes, there is some irony to that fact. All of the kids on the rosters of that AAA club, mine included, play association hockey during the winter, we enjoy the options that summer hockey offers.

And you are 100% correct that the Fire are just another group of kids and parents that play hockey and are passionate about hockey. My older son played on a team with some of these kids this past summer and against the sterotype that some have offered here that Fire parents are ones that have caused problems at that association level and just banded together is as far from the truth as you can get, the players are extremely talented and you'd give the shirt off your back to the parents.

I just think it is a little elitest and egomanical that some people think that that their little Johnny is SOOO good that the association is holding him back and the only way to fix this is to scrap the entire program under which youth hockey is governed on a statewide level. THEN I see more irony when that same Tier 1 AAA club plays in tournmants like the Bloomington PWA and it appears to be a Roseau Bantam tournament (to correct my earlier post) against the same teams that they were too good to play against, taht were holding back their developement.

[jancze5]

I see your point and can only apologize that you've experienced a select group of players/parents. I just hate seeing the entire Fire organization that is headed by a very passionate guy who loves hockey, loves the kids and has been around a while basically get reemed for a few bad eggs.
Every program has bad eggs.

[crossovers8]

Gump or I mean Elliott I can't tell who is behind
the mask ? You tell me why this isn't the best idea ever posted or did you
take my idea that you would not post on this site yesterday and come up
with this all on your own ? either way who cares Tier 1 Belongs in Mn...
THE GREAT STATE OF HOCKEY AND NO TIER 1 AAA ? IT IS WRONG
HOCKEYTOWN USA MICHIGAN TIER 1 AAA .. IS TAKING OUR TROPHIES.
U-18 Tier 1 Nationals = 80 games
U-16 Tier 1 Nationals = 70 games
U-14 Tier 1 Nationals = 65 games
U-12 Tier 1 Nationals = 65 games
High School state championship 28 games
elite league I hate to tell you is no Tier 1 Caliber of competition.....
And I know this hurts but neither is High school...........
YOU HAVE ALREADY LET SHATTUCK ST MARYS BE TIER 1
and yes they have brought home a few trophies but I will
go on and talk about what you would not post yesterday and
that is the MONOPOLY OF THE MARKETPLACE.. These are kids
who want to play high caliber hockey and you feel like you OWN
them and that they must fight for you and your Team. We are not
traders we are just looking to provide the best oppurtunities for all
of the kids who play the great game of hockey and can't afford to go
and spend $ 40,000 a year to go to Shattuck. It is called oppurtunities
and why would we want to limit the kids from at least having the chance
to choose what oppurtunities they wish to pursue. Why is it that you need
to decide for them ? are they under contract to you and all of Mn Hockey
NO so what is the problem..

Count me in on this one. People should have options and freedom to do what they want and a tier 1 option should be an option.

So go! What is holding you back? Hang your shingle, name your team, put together your coaching staff(s), secure a facility, hold your tryouts, schedule your competition, write your check, and live happily ever after and the rest of us will just continue to knock the puck around the pond.

Did I see in another thread that the Mighty Fire are coming to the Roseau Pee Wee A tournament? The '95 Fire? They are going to travel all the way up to Roseau to put a lickin' on all those substandard programs their players are too good to play for? Are they that desparate for another trophy? These families put out all this cash and have such a awesome, nationally ranked AAA team but they continue to play down to competition my kid's team gets the priviledge to play almost every game? Now that's a great return on that investment!

You can breath easy AF1, The '95 Fire aren't coming to Roseau. Playing down? You may want to take a look at who the Fire have actually played in their 30+ games to date; it doesn't resemble the EGF schedule.

Since you seem to be so financially astute, why don't you tell us just how much cash it takes to play for the Fire? I would be curious to know. Also, help us to make the ROI calculation on any youth hockey expenditure, 'o wizard of wall street...

[5thgraders]

[quote="Air Force 1"][quote="wheels"][quote="5thgraders"][quote="Gump"]So the idea is to level the competition field among the associations that have the largest to the smallest pools of players.

Great idea, but it does nothing for those stand out players from the smaller associations. They would now be missing out on the opportunity to play against the best overall competition - likely a Mega Association top team. This does nothing for their development or their team's development.

The best option to fix this growing problem is to introduce 3 or 4 regional Tier I options to the state for all to have the option of participation (I know this is a sore topic for many, but structured and managed properly it is the correct solution). This would likely remove some of the top players from the Mega Associations and give new opportunity to the best few in smaller associations. Some disparity will still exist among a few large associations and this can be addressed with the AA (Mega Association), A, B1, B2, ... concept or simply creating a second A team at all levels. It is a winning situation in which more players will be playing against even competition and be able to develop and practice their skills most effectively.[/quote] Gump or I mean Elliott I can't tell who is behind
the mask ? You tell me why this isn't the best idea ever posted or did you
take my idea that you would not post on this site yesterday and come up
with this all on your own ? either way who cares Tier 1 Belongs in Mn...
THE GREAT STATE OF HOCKEY AND NO TIER 1 AAA ? IT IS WRONG
HOCKEYTOWN USA MICHIGAN TIER 1 AAA .. IS TAKING OUR TROPHIES.
U-18 Tier 1 Nationals = 80 games
U-16 Tier 1 Nationals = 70 games
U-14 Tier 1 Nationals = 65 games
U-12 Tier 1 Nationals = 65 games
High School state championship 28 games
elite league I hate to tell you is no Tier 1 Caliber of competition.....
And I know this hurts but neither is High school...........
YOU HAVE ALREADY LET SHATTUCK ST MARYS BE TIER 1
and yes they have brought home a few trophies but I will
go on and talk about what you would not post yesterday and
that is the MONOPOLY OF THE MARKETPLACE.. These are kids
who want to play high caliber hockey and you feel like you OWN
them and that they must fight for you and your Team. We are not
traders we are just looking to provide the best oppurtunities for all
of the kids who play the great game of hockey and can't afford to go
and spend $ 40,000 a year to go to Shattuck. It is called oppurtunities
and why would we want to limit the kids from at least having the chance
to choose what oppurtunities they wish to pursue. Why is it that you need
to decide for them ? are they under contract to you and all of Mn Hockey
NO so what is the problem..[/quote]

Count me in on this one. People should have options and freedom to do what they want and a tier 1 option should be an option.[/quote]

So go! What is holding you back? Hang your shingle, name your team, put together your coaching staff(s), secure a facility, hold your tryouts, schedule your competition, write your check, and live happily ever after and the rest of us will just continue to knock the puck around the pond.

Did I see in another thread that the Mighty Fire are coming to the Roseau Pee Wee A tournament? The '95 Fire? They are going to travel all the way up to Roseau to put a lickin' on all those substandard programs their players are too good to play for? Are they that desparate for another trophy? These families put out all this cash and have such a awesome, nationally ranked AAA team but they continue to play down to competition my kid's team gets the priviledge to play almost every game? Now that's a great return on that investment![/quote] The Trophy thing was a joke
as everyone said the Tier 1 teams that play good hockey but are up to 2
years younger are stealing the trophy's from our older boys. And as you
said you like to go fishing you bit the bait. Mudsharks must be kind of hungry this time of year.

Why do you care if the good 95 Fire team challenges all of your SUPERSTARS..

SO YOU CAN WIN SOME STUPID TROPHY.. EARN IT YOU HAVE 94's

[Air Force 1]

You can breath easy AF1, The '95 Fire aren't coming to Roseau. Playing down? You may want to take a look at who the Fire have actually played in their 30+ games to date; it doesn't resemble the EGF schedule.

Since you seem to be so financially astute, why don't you tell us just how much cash it takes to play for the Fire? I would be curious to know. Also, help us to make the ROI calculation on any youth hockey expenditure, 'o wizard of wall street...

I don't have the to the penny cost to be on the team, it has never been a goal of ours to be on the team so I haven't researched the details, but what I have read, it is about 7 times what I pay for my '95 to play on the EGF Pee Wee team and then the math gets fuzzier as I don't know if this fee covers all ice time, tourney entry fees, uniform costs, referees and such, mine does. I also look at the cost of travel & hotels as part of how much it costs to play hockey and I know going to Moorhead or Hermantown for a tournament costs a lot less than going to Chicago or Colorado and a road game in Baudette is cheaper than one in St Louis, MO. I never said they played a weak schedule, you don't get their rating playing cupcakes, but as I said in another reply, I don't see how forming a team of elite players because association level hockey is holding back their development is justified when you turn around and play some of these same teams, i.e. the '95 Fire in the Bloomington PWA tourney or the '94 Fire playing in the Roseau Bantam A tourney.

[DMom]

Great idea, but it does nothing for those stand out players from the smaller associations. They would now be missing out on the opportunity to play against the best overall competition - likely a Mega Association top team. This does nothing for their development or their team's development.

The best option to fix this growing problem is to introduce 3 or 4 regional Tier I options to the state for all to have the option of participation (I know this is a sore topic for many, but structured and managed properly it is the correct solution). This would likely remove some of the top players from the Mega Associations and give new opportunity to the best few in smaller associations

Now you've fixed those two issues but created a much deeper one. what now happens to ___________, when they lose that player that helps to make their team competitive at the A level?? Don't focus on programs I named, put any medium sized association in the blank. Each have a sparker, a forty goal scorer, who could conceivably put that team over the top in any given game, or a defenseman or goalie that keeps them in the game, what happens to that association when it loses that kid, or two buddies go together. They go from a good league showing and maybe progress to state, to losing most of their league games and kids being done by the third week in February. That's okay, they can go play baseball, there will be plenty of open spots because the true superstars will still be playing hockey for their Tier one team. Are we growing the program like that?

You can't fix an entire system for one problem or to grease squeaky wheels.

[Air Force 1]

I have to leave my computer as I have to pick my son up and take him to practice. I'll catch up with all of you later!

[crossovers8]

You can breath easy AF1, The '95 Fire aren't coming to Roseau. Playing down? You may want to take a look at who the Fire have actually played in their 30+ games to date; it doesn't resemble the EGF schedule.

Since you seem to be so financially astute, why don't you tell us just how much cash it takes to play for the Fire? I would be curious to know. Also, help us to make the ROI calculation on any youth hockey expenditure, 'o wizard of wall street...

I don't have the to the penny cost to be on the team, it has never been a goal of ours to be on the team so I haven't researched the details, but what I have read, it is about 7 times what I pay for my '95 to play on the EGF Pee Wee team and then the math gets fuzzier as I don't know if this fee covers all ice time, tourney entry fees, uniform costs, referees and such, mine does. I also look at the cost of travel & hotels as part of how much it costs to play hockey and I know going to Moorhead or Hermantown for a tournament costs a lot less than going to Chicago or Colorado and a road game in Baudette is cheaper than one in St Louis, MO. I never said they played a weak schedule, you don't get their rating playing cupcakes, but as I said in another reply, I don't see how forming a team of elite players because association level hockey is holding back their development is justified when you turn around and play some of these same teams, i.e. the '95 Fire in the Bloomington PWA tourney or the '94 Fire playing in the Roseau Bantam A tourney.

News flash: The '95 Fire didn't play in the Bloomington PWA tournament this year.

I doubt that the Fire is really 7x the cost of association hockey. Plus I think one does need to look at coaching and ice time for the $. I believe the Fire teams all log a ton of practice ice hours (hence the development argument) beyond the typical association.

I'm still trying punch those return numbers into my calculator; getting a few error messages. Hmmm, I should try to do the same for my kid's soccer, dance, scouts, chess club.....

[Gump]

Now you've fixed those two issues but created a much deeper one. what now happens to ___________, when they lose that player that helps to make their team competitive at the A level?? Don't focus on programs I named, put any medium sized association in the blank. Each have a sparker, a forty goal scorer, who could conceivably put that team over the top in any given game, or a defenseman or goalie that keeps them in the game, what happens to that association when it loses that kid, or two buddies go together. They go from a good league showing and maybe progress to state, to losing most of their league games and kids being done by the third week in February. That's okay, they can go play baseball, there will be plenty of open spots because the true superstars will still be playing hockey for their Tier one team. Are we growing the program like that?

You can't fix an entire system for one problem or to grease squeaky wheels.[/quote]

DMom

It's not all about the wins. It's about helping the players to reach their full potential, teaching strong work ethic, life lessons, fun, team participation, ... and maybe getting some hardware along the way to collect dust on the shelf.

Yes, you are growing the program by removing the best player. What I've found is that any team in the situation that you identified comes to rely too heavily on that fourty+ goal scorer superstar. That fourty goal scorer isn't challenged enough and his/her developement isn't what it could be. Others on the team can get to the point where they know all they have to do is dump the puck to this person and he/she will do all the work for the win. The coaches often rely too much on this player too, just so they can win the game. If this player goes to a Tier I team, the remaining players (and coach) will have to work hard to improve and win those games to get to state. Plus, a good B player now has the chance to play at the A level. What a great opportunity to develop another player as well as the rest of the team.

Take a look at the threads on this forum talking about the best player at whatever level. Other than the fun jabbing on those, there is a message. There are many quotes about an individual being able to take over the game, score at will, put up a brick wall, ripping it up, ... This player isn't doing anything to help his teammates develop into better players/people.

I wouldn't want a one man team. I'd much rather take a team of 5-10 goal scorers that want to work hard and send the superstar on to Tier I than keep the superstar. Maybe I'd make to state, maybe not. But my players would be competitive in every game and would be much better at the end of the season than the start.

And, you need do understand, the other superstars from your main competition may have left to Tier I as well. Maybe you now have the better team even after losing the superstar???

What's the goal of the association? Develop HS players, college players, Pro, ...??? Realistically most seem to feel it's to try to field a good HS team for their area. When these players mature in HS, it's going to be that player that was moved up from the lower team and his teammates that learned to work hard for the win that's going to make the difference on the scoreboard. That once proud superstar may not even be playing anymore, might be really bad, or could be off in juniors somewhere, who knows. Point is that more players are closer to meeting their full potential.

[HockeyDadMN]

If an association gets too big, why not let that community have multiple associations.

Another way would be to drop the residency requirements for the larger associations, so the kids could play for smaller associations in the area. For example, in the SW metro, some Edina kids could have the option to play for Jefferson, Kennedy, Hopkins, Richfield, etc.

[Air Force 1]

You can breath easy AF1, The '95 Fire aren't coming to Roseau. Playing down? You may want to take a look at who the Fire have actually played in their 30+ games to date; it doesn't resemble the EGF schedule.

Since you seem to be so financially astute, why don't you tell us just how much cash it takes to play for the Fire? I would be curious to know. Also, help us to make the ROI calculation on any youth hockey expenditure, 'o wizard of wall street...

I don't have the to the penny cost to be on the team, it has never been a goal of ours to be on the team so I haven't researched the details, but what I have read, it is about 7 times what I pay for my '95 to play on the EGF Pee Wee team and then the math gets fuzzier as I don't know if this fee covers all ice time, tourney entry fees, uniform costs, referees and such, mine does. I also look at the cost of travel & hotels as part of how much it costs to play hockey and I know going to Moorhead or Hermantown for a tournament costs a lot less than going to Chicago or Colorado and a road game in Baudette is cheaper than one in St Louis, MO. I never said they played a weak schedule, you don't get their rating playing cupcakes, but as I said in another reply, I don't see how forming a team of elite players because association level hockey is holding back their development is justified when you turn around and play some of these same teams, i.e. the '95 Fire in the Bloomington PWA tourney or the '94 Fire playing in the Roseau Bantam A tourney.

News flash: The '95 Fire didn't play in the Bloomington PWA tournament this year.

You're right, the '96 Fire were in Bloomington, the '95 Fire were in Edina

I doubt that the Fire is really 7x the cost of association hockey. Plus I think one does need to look at coaching and ice time for the $. I believe the Fire teams all log a ton of practice ice hours (hence the development argument) beyond the typical association.

I didn't say all associations, I meant MY association. I pay $275 for my Pee Wee plus $40 USA/Minnesota Hockey registration fee, that's it, everything is covered. On top of that, I pay for gas and hotels for road trips and tournament road trips. From what I read, the fee to join the Fire was 6.35 times what I paid for my son to skate with our local association, correct me where I'm incorrect. I see that the '95 Fire will have 8 1.5 hour practices in January, in either Sommerset (Wisconsin I presume) and Minneapolis, will play 7 games at the Silver Stick tournament in Michigan, and one scrimage.

For my money, so far this month we have 4 practices, 1-1.25 hours in length scheduled through 10 Jan, we only schedule a week in advance, and they will never be more than 5 minutes from my house, and we have 11 games scheduled, 3 of which are at the Hermantown Tournament, the remaining 8 are either at home or within 1 1/2 hours one way. We will play Roseau, Thief River Falls, both Grand Forks PWA teams, @Devils Lake, ND, @Crookston, @Hallock and Warroad. Not the Fire schedule but pretty decent.

Will the Fire play better competition? I hope so, they are paying for the higher level of competition. Whose kids will miss less school? Whose kids will play shinny hockey with their friends and team mates at the outdoor rink down the block? Whose kids will spend less hours in the back seat of the SUV watching DVDs or doing homework? Does either club have less passion for the game, no, they just chose to pursue their passions in different ways.

I'm still trying punch those return numbers into my calculator; getting a few error messages. Hmmm, I should try to do the same for my kid's soccer, dance, scouts, chess club.....

Well, when you balance the books, let me now how, I need some advice on how to stretch a dollar or two for hockey.

[MoreCowBell]

At $275 how much is that subsidised by Charitable gambling or Business sponsorship?

[Air Force 1]

At $275 how much is that subsidised by Charitable gambling or Business sponsorship?

#1 is we are not an amatuer hockey association, we are a city park board program. The city provides the ice from two city owned arenas and 3 outdoor park rinks. All arena costs are absorbed by the city. The only time we purchase ice time is when we rent an hour or two here and there from an arena in Grand Forks and the Blue Line Club pays for that. The Blue Line Club also pays for all equipment, jerseys, tournament fees and referee costs. The Blue Line Club does have charitable gambling but due to the location the gaming is set up at, it makes little more than to cover expenses. We hold one raffle a year and make some money there but after paying for the major prizes, we get limited return. We hold a summer hockey school but the cost of leasing the facility and the fact that more and more towns are having summer schools/clinic, our return is dwindling there too. As we have a major project, we beat the bushes and line up the money and donated materials/labor then we proceed.

[5thgraders]

[quote="Air Force 1"][quote="crossovers8"][quote="Air Force 1"][quote="crossovers8"]
You can breath easy AF1, The '95 Fire aren't coming to Roseau. Playing down? You may want to take a look at who the Fire have actually played in their 30+ games to date; it doesn't resemble the EGF schedule.

Since you seem to be so financially astute, why don't you tell us just how much cash it takes to play for the Fire? I would be curious to know. Also, help us to make the ROI calculation on any youth hockey expenditure, 'o wizard of wall street... [/quote]

I don't have the to the penny cost to be on the team, it has never been a goal of ours to be on the team so I haven't researched the details, but what I have read, it is about 7 times what I pay for my '95 to play on the EGF Pee Wee team and then the math gets fuzzier as I don't know if this fee covers all ice time, tourney entry fees, uniform costs, referees and such, mine does. I also look at the cost of travel & hotels as part of how much it costs to play hockey and I know going to Moorhead or Hermantown for a tournament costs a lot less than going to Chicago or Colorado and a road game in Baudette is cheaper than one in St Louis, MO. I never said they played a weak schedule, you don't get their rating playing cupcakes, but as I said in another reply, I don't see how forming a team of elite players because association level hockey is holding back their development is justified when you turn around and play some of these same teams, i.e. the '95 Fire in the Bloomington PWA tourney or the '94 Fire playing in the Roseau Bantam A tourney.[/quote] Brent but
your boy plays goalie and you guys run up the score against Hallock by
a 14-1 margin or was it closer than that and the goalie won the game for
Egf.


News flash: The '95 Fire didn't play in the Bloomington PWA tournament this year.[/quote]
You're right, the '96 Fire were in Bloomington, the '95 Fire were in Edina

[quote]I doubt that the Fire is really [b]7x[/b] the cost of association hockey. Plus I think one does need to look at coaching and ice time for the $. I believe the Fire teams all log a ton of practice ice hours (hence the development argument) beyond the typical association.[/quote]
I didn't say all associations, I meant MY association. I pay $275 for my Pee Wee plus $40 USA/Minnesota Hockey registration fee, that's it, everything is covered. On top of that, I pay for gas and hotels for road trips and tournament road trips. From what I read, the fee to join the Fire was 6.35 times what I paid for my son to skate with our local association, correct me where I'm incorrect. I see that the '95 Fire will have 8 1.5 hour practices in January, in either Sommerset (Wisconsin I presume) and Minneapolis, will play 7 games at the Silver Stick tournament in Michigan, and one scrimage.

For my money, so far this month we have 4 practices, 1-1.25 hours in length scheduled through 10 Jan, we only schedule a week in advance, and they will never be more than 5 minutes from my house, and we have 11 games scheduled, 3 of which are at the Hermantown Tournament, the remaining 8 are either at home or within 1 1/2 hours one way. We will play Roseau, Thief River Falls, both Grand Forks PWA teams, @Devils Lake, ND, @Crookston, @Hallock and Warroad. Not the Fire schedule but pretty decent.

Will the Fire play better competition? I hope so, they are paying for the higher level of competition. Whose kids will miss less school? Whose kids will play shinny hockey with their friends and team mates at the outdoor rink down the block? Whose kids will spend less hours in the back seat of the SUV watching DVDs or doing homework? Does either club have less passion for the game, no, they just chose to pursue their passions in different ways.

[quote]I'm still trying punch those return numbers into my calculator; getting a few error messages. Hmmm, I should try to do the same for my kid's soccer, dance, scouts, chess club..... [/quote]
Well, when you balance the books, let me now how, I need some advice on how to stretch a dollar or two for hockey.[/quote]

[Air Force 1]

Brent but
your boy plays goalie and you guys run up the score against Hallock by
a 14-1 margin or was it closer than that and the goalie won the game for
Egf.

You’re right, he does. The goalies split that game and my son played the second half. It could have been worse. I never said I like games like that.

Whom do I have the pleasure exchanging messages with since you seem to know me?