Association play - should they welcome AAA boomerangs?

[Gump]

the main point on mm i was making is it overdevelops at a young age. it will make an awesome squirt and peewee. you can only take it so far the product in the end will still be decided by genetics,heart,and sheer will.

If you take twin boys, one does MM and the other does traditional, which boy would be a better player in the end? And how do you over develope a player, what study are you refering to.

The "dog" is referring to "the school of hard knocks" study.

The best kind of study.

It's amazing that you could figure out what the "Dog's" senseless babble was trying to say. I certainly couldn't follow it.

Spin-o-rama summed it up nicely.
Association hockey is an option that a family can choose, as established by MN Hockey. The duration of the choice is for one season. At the end of that season, the family has the option to choose again. The problems arise when MN Hockey, Districts, and Associations try to make the decision for a family and then their small minds blow up when someone chooses a different option. Anyone that truly loves and understands hockey should wish the family well in the Tier I program and welcome them back upon their return. Any other reaction is selfish and resentful.

[BoogeyMan]

Minnesota made is quite the topic. What did people do when Showcase came onto the scene. I hope they didn't get this abuse.

[Truthbetold]

The kid should tryout like everybody else and make the team that they make based on their tryout performance.

Why hold anything against the kid or parent when it is in their right to try other options?

[over8ted]

You have to think long term. Maybe the largest associations can afford to write a kid off by treating him poorly upon his return, but for the rest of us, that is a very short sighted option. Any small or medium sized association, if they want to improve, would welcome the player back with open arms. True, it hurts to see him leave in the first place. But then he chose to come back, older and wiser.

If you reject him at that point you will add resentment and bitterness to whatever his reasons for leaving in the first place.

If you welcome him back and allow him to make a team based on his abilities, he will be a very loyal team member for years to come and will prob forget the reasons he left or acknowledge that pursuing checkbook hockey was a mistake in the first place.

Of course when I say "him" I actually mean the parents. When a player is shopped around, 99% of the time its the parent that is driving. Players want to play with their buddies and by letting "him" back you reinforce that concept as well.

[watchdog]

gump- youll be able to figure out my "senseless babble" after ahwile it just takes alittle practice. think of it as a jigsaw puzzle useing words ya just slowly put the words together and you see the picture. my babble by the way is just really an opinion. weather you take it for its value is totally up to you. we all have our ideas of what works and what dont work. the gray area here and the one that really is a stumper is whats an illusion?

[edge]

It may not be popular, but I side with the "DOGS" formula for development. Give me a kid from up north, Roseau or where ever, any day. The kids learn to love the game and develop at their own pace.
It doesn't matter how big a kid is at what level, they all learn to love the game and develop the passion for the game.
It has work for the northern teams in the past it will work in the future. I'm not sure but one of this mr. hockey finalist Aaron Ness played multi sports and never played alot of summer hockey. What I hear about him is work ethic and is commitment to excellence.
Drop the puck and play.

[BoogeyMan]

It may not be popular, but I side with the "DOGS" formula for development. Give me a kid from up north, Roseau or where ever, any day. The kids learn to love the game and develop at their own pace.
It doesn't matter how big a kid is at what level, they all learn to love the game and develop the passion for the game.
It has work for the northern teams in the past it will work in the future. I'm not sure but one of this mr. hockey finalist Aaron Ness played multi sports and never played alot of summer hockey. What I hear about him is work ethic and is commitment to excellence.
Drop the puck and play.

Edge- Are you kidding me? Secret formula for developing the kids.

Let me tell you a simple fact.
The more ice time kids get. The better players they will be. It's a true fact. I to believe that kids need to be paced in the game of hockey. But the last time I looked. There is no secret formula. All kids are different. What's good for some isn't good for others.
For someone to tell me what's better for my kid is unreal.

It's really that simple. I get a kick out of people over analyzing youth hockey.

[jackstraw]

Part of the secret formula is being at a high school game on a Tuesday night @ 9:30. BoogeyMan just don't get it.

[tomASS]

Part of the secret formula is being at a high school game on a Tuesday night @ 9:30. BoogeyMan just don't get it.

watchdog, edge, and jackstraw get it. Watchdog is from Roseau, where BM ( an accurate acronym ) has in the past has sung their praises of a association and community that know how to develop hockey players and now BM says watchdog doesn't know what he is talking about. Hmmmm

[DMom]

Before I ever posted, I used the search engine on the forum to find topics I wanted to learn about. Wish they had the opposite. If I could just weed out BM's post, I would really enjoy learning from people who are proven commodities and have already "been there and done that".

As I once told my all time favorite AAA dad "signing a check doesn't give you the right to make everyone else miserable".

[DMom]

Don't jump to the conclusion that I am a Mr. McBain basher. He has always been very nice to my kids. I know that if I write a check to Minnesota Made, my kids will learn whatever skill I am paying for. I appreciate that, because you can spend a lot of hard earned money on useless offseason camps and teams. That being said, I am a huge fan of association hockey. I would rather spend two hours in the concession stand making a couple hundred for the association, than two hours in the car going back and forth to MM. Especially if my kids are playing shinnyhockeywith their friends, while I am selling cinnabons to mine.

[elliott70]

Don't jump to the conclusion that I am a Mr. McBain basher. He has always been very nice to my kids. I know that if I write a check to Minnesota Made, my kids will learn whatever skill I am paying for. I appreciate that, because you can spend a lot of hard earned money on useless offseason camps and teams. That being said, I am a huge fan of association hockey. I would rather spend two hours in the concession stand making a couple hundred for the association, than two hours in the car going back and forth to MM. Especially if my kids are playing shinnyhockeywith their friends, while I am selling cinnabons to mine.

I missed breakfast and now cinnabons on my mind.....

[tomASS]

DMom

both posts ......

Can i take one cinnebon with extra frosting??

I'm not sweet enough yet

[watchdog]

boogy im not telling you what or how to bring your kid up in hockey. i just stated an opinion. i certainly am not over analyzing youth hockey im doing the opposite. thats what my post said their is no secret formula. as for whats good for some isnt good for others that doesnt make any sense. you said it yourself ice time its good for all. my opinion was to be careful not to over develop at a young age one of the big reason to add is burn out factor. if a mite is doing drills at mm all the time hes eventually gona lose intrest at some point in his life. now if hes at the park playing and having fun with his friends while mom and dad bring hot chocolate and treats thats another story. its not hard for me to see the diffrence and which one is gona be better for the kid. learn to love the game or learn to hate the game? how many kids love school? not to many that i know. things like mm are school the diffrence is you put on hockey pads. i was down their for the melt down and watched a mite practice. it was drills.... they have their whole hockey life to do drills these kids are 4,5,6,7 years old for pete sakes! your suppose to have all fun at that age. i can tell you this could be right or wrong depending on opinion here for mites they do about 10 minutes of skating usually on the circles than they throw out a puck and the kids go to town.. heres a quick story the other day i went to pick up my kids at open hockey my oldest two were skating around in circles more or less passing the puck back and fourth. the passes were really bad after watching for a few minutes i yelled for them to get off so we could go home. walking in to the dressing room i said boy your passing needs some work you need to put that puck on the tape. one of my boys said no dad we were trying to put it into our feet incase we get a bad pass in a game we can kick it up real quick without loosing the puck! wow thats all on their own kids having fun making up games and learning all at the same time. so like i said its simple as a parent find ice time,let the kids have fun they will reach their potential. the diffrence for each kid comes at the end its called genetics.. any kid that gets lots of ice time is gona be a fine hockey player but its his genetics that will decide if he or she ever plays hockey beyond high school. you cant teach speed,size or hockey smarts thats all natural.

[elliott70]

If you take twin boys, one does MM and the other does traditional, which boy would be a better player in the end? And how do you over develope a player, what study are you refering to.

The "dog" is referring to "the school of hard knocks" study.

The best kind of study.

It's amazing that you could figure out what the "Dog's" senseless babble was trying to say. I certainly couldn't follow it.

Spin-o-rama summed it up nicely.
Association hockey is an option that a family can choose, as established by MN Hockey. The duration of the choice is for one season. At the end of that season, the family has the option to choose again. The problems arise when MN Hockey, Districts, and Associations try to make the decision for a family and then their small minds blow up when someone chooses a different option. Anyone that truly loves and understands hockey should wish the family well in the Tier I program and welcome them back upon their return. Any other reaction is selfish and resentful.

I have to take exception to this statement.
Although you are directly insulting me, I do not care.
But within the rest of the group' I have many friends and varied relationships. Almost all of whom do not have small minds and are very even tempered.

[BoogeyMan]

Part of the secret formula is being at a high school game on a Tuesday night @ 9:30. BoogeyMan just don't get it.

watchdog, edge, and jackstraw get it. Watchdog is from Roseau, where BM ( an accurate acronym ) has in the past has sung their praises of a association and community that know how to develop hockey players and now BM says watchdog doesn't know what he is talking about. Hmmmm

tomASS- Good try! Trying to stir the pot? Roseau is a great example of a good hockey association.
So someone at your level understands. I was trying to say. There's NO secret formula. The more ice time the better. Very simple! True fact.

I agree with what watchdog says: you cant teach speed,size or hockey smarts thats all natural. I also agree you have to make it fun for the kids. Who are you to tell me if my son is skating at Minnesota made he's not having fun? If a kid wants to skate 24 hours a day. Who cares where he does it?
Who are you to even worry about where my is skating in the first place? In fact, you mentioned to Lee that you want to read only Peewee and Bantam information. So why are you wasting your time with Mites and Squirts.
I'll tell you why. You're trying to stir the pot as usual. As long as Lee puts up with it. We have to suffer. Besides if they ever did boot you. You would only use your other name.

PEACE!

[tomASS]

this topic also affects Pee Wee and Bantam

I would never switch. I yam who I yam; unlike ChanMan who morphed into Boogeyman.

you agree with watchdog, but disagree with edge, who agreed with watchdog in the first place. That would mean you either agree with edge, who you originally claimed not to agree with or you do not agree with watchdog, who you just claim to agree with.

Your profile says says you like to keep people honest. I guess it doesn't get much more honest than that. All your bases are covered.

[Gump]

The "dog" is referring to "the school of hard knocks" study.

The best kind of study.

It's amazing that you could figure out what the "Dog's" senseless babble was trying to say. I certainly couldn't follow it.

Spin-o-rama summed it up nicely.
Association hockey is an option that a family can choose, as established by MN Hockey. The duration of the choice is for one season. At the end of that season, the family has the option to choose again. The problems arise when MN Hockey, Districts, and Associations try to make the decision for a family and then their small minds blow up when someone chooses a different option. Anyone that truly loves and understands hockey should wish the family well in the Tier I program and welcome them back upon their return. Any other reaction is selfish and resentful.

I have to take exception to this statement.
Although you are directly insulting me, I do not care.
But within the rest of the group' I have many friends and varied relationships. Almost all of whom do not have small minds and are very even tempered.

Elliott -

As I don't know you, no personall insult intended. In reading your posts over the past several years, you seem to be sincere in your efforts and in it for the right reasons. As deduced from the overall theme of various posters, there is a huge difference in the general mentality and motives of people from various parts of the state. You being from the great northland, have a different perspective and outlook than those from the metro area (which is the majority of MN Hockey and where most of my experience lies).

This would be a great topic for another post "Why are you active in MN youth hockey?"
In my experience (and I do have a very extensive resume) a majority are in it for the wrong reasons. I know far too many people (many of which I consider close friends) that are active in association politics and district politics that are there for their own self serving interests or are on some kind of a power trip - in some cases both. I know some other great people (many of which I also consider close friends) that are in it because they love the sport and truly have the best interests of MN Hockey and the players in mind. However, they are too often overshadowed by the selfish majority and their controlling attitudes - in my opinion, the "Small Minded Majority".

So, to those that are in it for the right reasons, I am sorry if you were insulted. But, until changes are made throughout the structure, there is still guilt by association.
I stand by my statement.

[watchdog]

the thread was started with a question and we have debated the answer. this forum is a good battlefield for the war on AAA hockey. first of all im all for AAA (in the summer) second of all you love hockey why would you support something that could destroy association hockey which is without a doubt the roots of hockey here in minnesota. you call for lee to ban tomass why? because he has a diffrent point of view on a very heated subject? hes not swearing or making any personal attacks. you talk about people being in it for themselves. i find that very interesting. to me its a very selfish and self serving move to abandon your association for a AAA hockey club.

[Gump]

to me its a very selfish and self serving move to abandon your association for a AAA hockey club.

Dog -
Very interesting perspective and I see your point.
It must be great to be with a close knit association where people are so supportive and take such pride in each other. You are right, someone leaving this environment for AAA may have a detrimental effect on the group.

However, many of the med and larger associations aren't like that. They are cut throat, competitive, and too many are out for themselves. While some may take a player's leaving for AAA personally, or may be jealous, it's certainly not a different attitude than what goes on within the association on a regular basis. Many people are already selfish and selfserving in how players are allocated, ice times, resources, coach selection, ...

I don't agree that Tier I would destroy association hockey. If managed correctly it could even have the opposite effect. To your point, it could end up strengthening the bonds that exist or create new ones in other areas. Association hockey will continue and the rivalries will remain strong.

Hockey in MN is already great and expanding it to Tier I to compete on the national level can only make it better.

[54fighting]

Gump- you could not be more right. If every district director was as interested in what the membership had to say as Elliot seems to be, I think MN hockey would be alot better off. Unfortunetly for the kids, that is not the case. I will not name names but I will tell you flat out that if you even suggested to the director from our district that he should get on this forum to get a feel for what is going he response would be " why would I do that, just to listen to what a bunch of whiners have to say. If they don't like the way I run my district then they should move." Trust me I know this!
Watchdog- I understand in Roseau there is no need to find a better option because there probably is not a better option available, AAA or otherwise. To say that every kid who chooses to try a Tier 1 program is selfish is wrong. I would have a hard time telling someone whose local association does not offer an A or B1 level team at the Bantam level that they should have to stay. Right now in that scenerio the family has to move, and many do. To me it seems more crazy to force a family to move than it does to allow them to go to a Tier 1 program.

So you have a skater who is a select 15 level skater. He lives in a town whose top bantam team skates at the b level and even then is not very competative. How selfish of him to want to play at his level. Where a game will be fun and he will be pushed to work hard and he will get better. he will practice against kids that are at a similar level and the practices will be at a tempo that will challenge him. No, he should stay and be forced to skate with kids who show up when they feel like it. He should be forced to do drills that put him to sleep.

[tomASS]

Gump- you could not be more right. If every district director was as interested in what the membership had to say as Elliot seems to be, I think MN hockey would be alot better off. .

HERE! HERE !
very well stated

thanks elliot

[watchdog]

54 i have said the same in the past if they set up teir 1 for the associations that only offer B level or no hockey at all id be all for it. also i do realize your point gump you see some of that every where im sure worse in some places than others. i was just saying both attitudes have their selfish and self serving points to them.

[elliott70]

Gump- you could not be more right. If every district director was as interested in what the membership had to say as Elliot seems to be, I think MN hockey would be alot better off. .

HERE! HERE !
very well stated

thanks elliot

Why not wait and pat him on the back after we see if he can make any substantial changes that help all the MH kids.

In the mean time, I am still reading and trying to digest.
I will print this stuff on or about 10am on 1/17/08 - thursday.
I will make copies for about 10 people serving on the steering committee.

[tomASS]

Why not wait and pat him on the back after we see if he can make any substantial changes that help all the MH kids.

In the mean time, I am still reading and trying to digest.
I will print this stuff on or about 10am on 1/17/08 - thursday.
I will make copies for about 10 people serving on the steering committee.

Listening, acknowledging what you hear, and having clarity on the situation is half the battle mr flannel!