St. Thomas Bantam B

[hockeydog64]

Can someone explain how this one makes any sense? Correct me if any of these facts are wrong, but as I understand it St. Thomas Academy tried to join District 8 to field a Bantam B team for the 07-08 season, and was rejected. (See the District 8 stickstat site board minutes from June '07.) STA couldn't get an affiliation agreement with Minnesota Hockey, so they did an end-run by tagging onto Richfield's affiliation agreement, and playing as a District 1 team all season this year. Now, suddenly, they are being thrown into District 8 for district play-off purposes -- the very district that rejected them earlier in the year. District 8 has 17 teams in district playoffs at the Bantam B level this year, and only get to send 2 teams to Regions. District 1 has 9 teams, and gets to send 3 teams to Regions. WHAT IN THE SAM HILL IS GOING ON HERE? If District 1 let STA in, why wouldn't they play in the D1 playoffs???? Also, I thought there was a rule against associations with no "A" team playing in the "B" playoffs? Not to mention a rule requiring that you play in the association where you are a resident (regardless of where you go to school)! How is this possibly good for MN Hockey? Lakeville’s program certainly suffered this year due to the option kids apparently had to join STA! If District 1 let them in, they should be playing in District 1’s playoffs. District 1 certainly seems to be benefiting from their participation (see http://www.cadets.com/news?module=news&showitem=231). Someone please enlighten me as to how this is fair to District 8, and how it is good for Minnesota Hockey.

[Ontheice]

All valid points which just show that MN hockey is winging it on the PS issue, in terms of not having had time? to have a comprehensive approach. Hopefully they will come to a resolution as they are expressing they will. If they allow PS teams then there should be no waivers required and the teams should play at the level they belong. There isn't a practical concern on the behalf of D8. The STA team is not an allstar team nor should they be playing an A schedule. They should not impact the teams going to Regions from D8 though they might(would) have made it to Regions in D1. An issue is how are coaches etc going to seed a team from D1 into D8 that they know only by reputation?/expectation?/pre-conception. But IMHO ultimately they are a group of kids playing bantam hockey, having fun, and will represent themselves well if they make it into the final 12. Finally D8 sends two team every 4th or fifth year this just happens to be the one.

[hockeydog64]

All valid points which just show that MN hockey is winging it on the PS issue, in terms of not having had time? to have a comprehensive approach.

But MN hockey did address it, and my understanding was that they were not going to allow the team without the team going through the proper channels, getting an affiliation agreement, etc. (see minutes below), yet somehow STA got a team anyway. IMHO, that's not just "a group of kids playing bantam hockey, having fun," but rather a group that through a mysterious process got special treatment and in the process helped to make a terrible year for the association that taught a large number of these kids to skate. The Fire is "a group of kids playing bantam hockey, having fun" too, but they don't get to participate in the Mn hockey playoffs. The MN Made mite teams are a group of kids playing hockey and having fun, but they don't get to play MN Hockey teams at all. The players on the STA team would have been a group of kids playing hockey and having fun if they were playing at their home associations.

As far as not having an impact on the teams going to Regions from D8, that remains to be seen. STA has beaten some highly ranked teams this year. In Bantam hockey, any decent team can beat any other, and they often do. I understand that the 2 v. 3 teams to regions is a scheduled rotation, but the fact that this is one of the years that D8 only send 2 (and the fact that MN Hockey was well aware of that fact) makes it even more perplexing why they would dump STA into the D8 playoffs. Once again, if D1 let them in, and they participated in D1 all year, they should be in the D1 playoffs. 3 of the 9 D1 teams will make it to Regions this year, and even without STA in D8's playoffs, only 2 of 17 will.

From September 16, 2007 MN Hockey Board Meeting: “David Margenau inquired, having heard this statement from Dennis where does that place St. Thomas and their team for this season? Can this be included in the special meeting that is being set up? If this is a new team, does the affiliate require Board approval? Jerry DeMeo stated that we have no knowledge if in fact St. Thomas is having a team. Dennis Green said that was the responsibility of Tom Mickus and Rich Rakness to ascertain. David Margenau continued by stating that, based on past precedent, if we (MH) learned that they do plan on fielding a team for this season, if they do not get Board approval they will not receive an affiliate aggreement. Dennis Green said that if it appears that St. Thomas will be a viable team for this year, and are requesting an affiliate agreement, then the criteria that we (MH) just reviewed, Article 9 and Article 11, would have to be put in place in order for us (MH) to hold a special meeting. Greg Nagan asked to speak to this issue. He has received a waiver request from a player to leave a District 2 association to play on the St. Thomas team. The questions that need to be asked are what defines a “full time” “student”, home schooled with limited access to the school, are they a 501C3 association, is there a separate Board or is it a school Board, are all students eligible? We don’t need to keep making mistakes. This could affect our Junior Gold programs. Would private grade school's want to start their own programs? We are undermining our local, community-based programs.”

[hockeydog64]

For what it's worth, here is the bottom line of why I'm ticked off about this: At the June 2007 D8 Board meeting, the District Reps voted strongly against allowing St. Thomas to join D8 (here is the motion from the 6/21 Board minutes: New business - St. Thomas parents requested that a Bantam B team join District 8 as a guest for a yearly renewal. A motion was made. Motion was seconded. Discussion followed. Motion failed on a roll call vote.") But in spite of a lack of board authorization (and MN Hockey authorization, as pointed out in my earlier post), STA has now been inserted into the D8 playoffs. Are the rules and processes of MN Hockey meaningless?

D1 let 'em in, D1 got their money (I assume) and Richfield got their donations. They played D1 all year, and D8 teams haven't had the opportunity to test them. They should play in D1's playoffs.

[HockeyFan55]

By doing the end around, and playing without an affiliate agreement, they should not be playing in any palyoffs, and for Richfield allowing this, they should also be sanctioned.

[elliott70]

For what it's worth, here is the bottom line of why I'm ticked off about this: At the June 2007 D8 Board meeting, the District Reps voted strongly against allowing St. Thomas to join D8 (here is the motion from the 6/21 Board minutes: New business - St. Thomas parents requested that a Bantam B team join District 8 as a guest for a yearly renewal. A motion was made. Motion was seconded. Discussion followed. Motion failed on a roll call vote.") But in spite of a lack of board authorization (and MN Hockey authorization, as pointed out in my earlier post), STA has now been inserted into the D8 playoffs. Are the rules and processes of MN Hockey meaningless?

D1 let 'em in, D1 got their money (I assume) and Richfield got their donations. They played D1 all year, and D8 teams haven't had the opportunity to test them. They should play in D1's playoffs.

The D8 board does not have the power to grant or not grant an affiliate agreement.

I will find out what's up with playing in D8 district play-offs. As stated they became a team because they were allowed to participate with the Richfield association.
(I might add, this happened with most on the MH board unaware of it. It did ruffle a lot of feathers.)

[hockeydog64]

For what it's worth, here is the bottom line of why I'm ticked off about this: At the June 2007 D8 Board meeting, the District Reps voted strongly against allowing St. Thomas to join D8 (here is the motion from the 6/21 Board minutes: New business - St. Thomas parents requested that a Bantam B team join District 8 as a guest for a yearly renewal. A motion was made. Motion was seconded. Discussion followed. Motion failed on a roll call vote.") But in spite of a lack of board authorization (and MN Hockey authorization, as pointed out in my earlier post), STA has now been inserted into the D8 playoffs. Are the rules and processes of MN Hockey meaningless?

D1 let 'em in, D1 got their money (I assume) and Richfield got their donations. They played D1 all year, and D8 teams haven't had the opportunity to test them. They should play in D1's playoffs.

The D8 board does not have the power to grant or not grant an affiliate agreement.

I will find out what's up with playing in D8 district play-offs. As stated they became a team because they were allowed to participate with the Richfield association.
(I might add, this happened with most on the MH board unaware of it. It did ruffle a lot of feathers.)

On behalf of many people who are unhappy about this, thanks!!

[elliott70]

As soon as I know something I will post it.

[elliott70]

I have not heard an official reply yet.

But any D8 bantam B team or an association with bantam B team can/should file a grievance.

They are not a D8 team and should not be playing in D8 post-season play-off.

Whether they play in D1 or not is a matter of pre-season agreement.
I have no information regarding that as of yet.

[hockeydog64]

I have not heard an official reply yet.

But any D8 bantam B team or an association with bantam B team can/should file a grievance.

They are not a D8 team and should not be playing in D8 post-season play-off.

Whether they play in D1 or not is a matter of pre-season agreement.
I have no information regarding that as of yet.

Unfortunately, I don't think that there are many (or any) D8 associations with the cojones to file a grievance. There may be a Bantam B team or two that would file, but do they have that right if their association declines to do so? If so, maybe Duluth East's Bantam B team should file a grievance. They were recently pounded by STA, and probably wouldn't take kindly to a non-compliant team meeting them in the state play-offs . . .

[elliott70]

I have not heard an official reply yet.

But any D8 bantam B team or an association with bantam B team can/should file a grievance.

They are not a D8 team and should not be playing in D8 post-season play-off.

Whether they play in D1 or not is a matter of pre-season agreement.
I have no information regarding that as of yet.

Unfortunately, I don't think that there are many (or any) D8 associations with the cojones to file a grievance. There may be a Bantam B team or two that would file, but do they have that right if their association declines to do so? If so, maybe Duluth East's Bantam B team should file a grievance. They were recently pounded by STA, and probably wouldn't take kindly to a non-compliant team meeting them in the state play-offs . . .

Any team should be able to file a grievance as well as the association. I am not sure how D8 hadles it, but both are acceptable in D16.

A none D8 team could file a grievance if STA is appearing in regions/state.

[whockeyguy]

Elliot this is what i said earlier about accountablilty, there is none here, this team has been problems throughout the state and who the heck do you go to , Richfield sure as H --- aint going to do anything about it and the School administrators wont do anything, so guess what, Its Now in MN Hockey hands, time for somebody to step up , hope you find some answers and hopefully some are not hiding

[elliott70]

Elliot this is what i said earlier about accountablilty, there is none here, this team has been problems throughout the state and who the heck do you go to , Richfield sure as H --- aint going to do anything about it and the School administrators wont do anything, so guess what, Its Now in MN Hockey hands, time for somebody to step up , hope you find some answers and hopefully some are not hiding

Dave Margeneau, VP of Maroon, should handle any problems that cannot be resolved otherwise.

[Ontheice]

This conversation is amazing me. Does anyone here really think these kids should be kept from the playoffs. Why? The kids are on a team they have played through the season and deserve to see it through. I dislike the incomplete approach to private schools and MN hockey admits that they were not kept in the loop on their trial runs and that their trial runs were inconsistent. This translates to me that they failed to monitor or keep in touch, and certainly failed to lead on the issue. To now punish these kids would be unconscionable. To discuss whether they belong in the D1 or D8 fine. To discuss whether or not PS fit within the framework of MN hockey fine. But to try and go back and undo the season would be ....
I would also like to understand what problems this team has been creating throughout the state.

[hockeydog64]

I think that whether they are in D1 or D8 playoffs is the main issue at this point. But I don't agree that it would be "unconscionable" even if the team was restricted from playoffs. I think that they knew they were bending the rules when they formed the team the way they did, and that there were risks in doing so.

[elliott70]

I think that whether they are in D1 or D8 playoffs is the main issue at this point. But I don't agree that it would be "unconscionable" even if the team was restricted from playoffs. I think that they knew they were bending the rules when they formed the team the way they did, and that there were risks in doing so.

D1 had said that they could play a league schedule in D1, but could not participate in play-offs.
D8 was told that they would have to accept them in their play-offs.


That's that. They were given permission at teh beginnn gof the year.
Kind of a screwy deal but it is what it is.

[hockeydog64]

Thanks Elliot, but the answers beg questions.

D8 was told that they would have to accept them in their play-offs.

Who told D8 that? Who gave the permission at the beginning of the year? And how did they come to the conclusion that it was a reasonable decision to make? It sure seems like there needs to be a bit more light shed on this.

[relax please]

could it be that D8 did not want them playing a season long schedule because that is where many of STA current team players come from.

[elliott70]

Thanks Elliot, but the answers beg questions.

D8 was told that they would have to accept them in their play-offs.

Who told D8 that?
President and VP maroon, is my guess.

Who gave the permission at the beginning of the year?
I am not sure - like I said a screwy deal.

And how did they come to the conclusion that it was a reasonable decision to make?
I was not involved - I have the same question.

It sure seems like there needs to be a bit more light shed on this.
The only way it will come to light is through a grievance, and apparently no one is willing - from what I have read.

I will not learn more until April meeting.
I would have enjoyed knowing this before our last meeting.

[elliott70]

could it be that D8 did not want them playing a season long schedule because that is where many of STA current team players come from.

My understanding is that D8 did not want another team at the B level because of a large number of teams already.

[FREDFLINTSTONE]

When you go to the circus, you expect to see clowns. Welcome to the circus.

[tunavichy]

This is another District one act by their incompetent leaders followed by District 8 (Rakness ?)acceptence. Crap of giving play-off spots to other districts, letting teams jump from B to C just before the Jan.1 deadline are all things District one is known for. Why do you think everyone wants them gone. Next they will disbanned and give all the monies that they have stored away to the new District instead of giving it back to the associations they collected if from. (Crooks and Thiefs) it's all part of this thing we call Minnesota Hockey! Than we wonder why kids are starting to opt for other things.

[whockeyguy]

MN Hockey at its finest,the people that allowed this to happen should step down from any position they hold in Mn Hockey, what doe sthis do to the future , teams can play in one district and go the back door come playoffs, WHAT A MESS these great people have created, and I still ask where is the accountablilty, wwhy were they even allowed to piggyback Richfield,

[elliott70]

MN Hockey at its finest,the people that allowed this to happen should step down from any position they hold in Mn Hockey, what doe sthis do to the future , teams can play in one district and go the back door come playoffs, WHAT A MESS these great people have created, and I still ask where is the accountablilty, wwhy were they even allowed to piggyback Richfield,

I am sorry but I do not have answers to these questons.

[SWPrez]

Tuna,

I don't think attacking volunteers that run District 1 on this board is appropriate. While some may not like decisions that are made by local hockey association boards, district boards, or even Minnesota Hockey Boards - these are all volunteers whose tombstones one day will read that they made a difference in kids' lives.

Every once in a while I am approached by a parent angry about something that has affected their player. I offer the parent the opportunity to swing by our board meeting to discuss or, better yet to PARTICIPATE in a committee to deal with how to handle a situation better. These parents always disappear immediately.

Minnesota Hockey is not the Tae Kwon Doe Studio, Foss Swim School, or even Dance School --- where you pay a very large sum to a private, for profit business. Minnesota Hockey is expensive, but affordable due to the large commitment of volunteers - from youth coaches to District Directors. I have relatives on the East Coast that write a check for $2,500 before their blades can even touch the ice and the season runs in the $4-5k range because everyone gets paid. Is this where we want things to go?

Please keep this in mind, attend the next District 1 meeting, and take a volunteer position on the D1 board (I believe there may be a few opportunities there). But, please don't rip volunteers that are making a difference in kids' lives doing the best they can do with their limited volunteer time.