Wayzata HS Hockey

GOPHERFAN119 · Post by **GOPHERFAN119** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:01 am

Is it time for a coaching change ?

I have no kids in the hockey system, I am just an outsider looking in at the program.

HOFam'r · Post by **HOFam'r** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:08 am

WayOutWest wrote:
HOFam'r wrote:How can the coach go from being good to bad? Obviously, the talent is not what it once was...Most coaches will succeed with talent-I could coach Roseau or Edina...The coach who can make steak out of hamberger is my guy. Mediocre seasons one after the another are frustrating...but join the rest of the world...it's hard to find the guy who can mix and match a team together to be competitive and then convince the parents that their kid is a role player on a mediocre team...been done but pretty dang close to impossible.
When was the coaching staff "good", Ho?
The Wayzata program is not accustomed to mediocrity, Ho. We're not talking about Buffalo!!!!! If you have success at every level of the association, it is not unreasonable to expect to see it in high school, too.

I believe they have done well in past season WOW. As for Buffalo I believe we defeated Wayzata last season and will play them again soon.

WOW...here's how hockey works...when kids are in the youth programs alot of how good they are is how much money parents throw at training them. As they reach Sophomore and above natural ability takes over and kids that were dominate at the PeeWee level become just another player in HS.

Don't believe look at the Trojans they are prime time examples of it. I will look forward to next Thursday and our rematch with you guys. BTW Carl Davis was at Buffalo before taking over at Wayzata.

Neutron 14 · Post by **Neutron 14** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:16 am

GOPHERFAN119 wrote:Is it time for a coaching change ?

I have no kids in the hockey system, I am just an outsider looking in at the program.

Easier said than done. This isn't a private school, you need cause to fire a coach thats union teacher. A cause that satisfies the school board, not the players parents. And of course if you get that done, hiring another might not be so easy when the union contract states you must hire a teacher first, provided he's qualified.

hockeyxprt1 · Post by **hockeyxprt1** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:16 am

GOPHERFAN119 wrote:Is it time for a coaching change ?

I have no kids in the hockey system, I am just an outsider looking in at the program.

Yes!! Let's stop being subtle.

Wireless · Post by **Wireless** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:57 am

Wayzata Hockey should be very disappointed with the performance of the High School program. The notion that this program is picked apart by private schools is unreasonable. All programs in the metro area are susceptible to a player or 2 leaving for private schools. This should not have a lasting affect over time on a HS program.

It's time for a new HS coach in Wayzata.

mulefarm · Post by **mulefarm** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:17 am

I believe coaching contracts are for that season only and are renewed yearly. There is no tenure and can be terminated without reason. The unions only negoiate the salaries for extracurricular activities. I don't believe you have to be a teacher to coach. You may have to have a coaching certificate or be granted a waiver. I think each district is different.
I believe it is easier to get rid of a coach than it is to find a quality replacement. Most of the good young guys that want to coach are going to the junior ranks. Less hassle and have a better chance of advancing career. Minnetonka's head job opened up last April and they could not get a quality teacher-coach and had to go outside. With there facilities and teacher pay schedule you would have thought they would have had a ton of great candiates. So if a program wants to get rid of a coach, there is no guarantee the next guy will be better. Just my thougths.

WayOutWest · Post by **WayOutWest** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:41 am

HOFam'r wrote: WOW...here's how hockey works...when kids are in the youth programs alot of how good they are is how much money parents throw at training them. As they reach Sophomore and above natural ability takes over and kids that were dominate at the PeeWee level become just another player in HS.

Don't believe look at the Trojans they are prime time examples of it. I will look forward to next Thursday and our rematch with you guys. BTW Carl Davis was at Buffalo before taking over at Wayzata.

Yeah, thanks for the "attempt" at a lesson, Ho. According to your logic, dominant Pee Wee players typically become "just another player" in H.S. That's "how hockey works", eh?

So, you're implying that the Wayzata faithful merely throw $$ at their kids, in thier youth, which produces a good product............and then by high school, reality settles in and we find that the Wayzata kids just didn't have any "natural ability?" Hilarious.

What's in the water, out there in Buffalo?

I love your analysis. It's not unlike listening to Paris Hilton explain nuclear physics.

WayOutWest · Post by **WayOutWest** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:55 am

GOPHERFAN119 wrote:Is it time for a coaching change ?

I have no kids in the hockey system, I am just an outsider looking in at the program.

Yep!!!
H.S. coaches are typically given way too much latitude. Yearly performance evaluations should be an integral part of the job.
H.S. coaches are often conveniently insulated by contracts, an A.D. and school board that is not familiar enough with their performance, and a public sector that has no say in the matter.

It's a good gig, if you can get it. You'd have to make quite a spectacle in order to get removed.

bananastick · Post by **bananastick** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:51 pm

Parents and players have been complaining about the coaches for years, yet nothing changes. From what I hear it's not so much the winning and losing, but how the coaches treat the players.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:58 pm

GOPHERFAN119 · Post by **GOPHERFAN119** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:51 pm

2006-2007 season .......A record of 9-16-1

2007-2008 season YTD ....A record of 5-12-4

Frustrating..........

WayOutWest · Post by **WayOutWest** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:20 pm

GOPHERFAN119 wrote:2006-2007 season .......A record of 9-16-1

2007-2008 season YTD ....A record of 5-12-4

Frustrating..........

Kinda takes any "one year fluke" explanation out of the equation, eh?

Another uncompetitive game against Edina, over the weekend? Okay, so they scored a few goals, but this game was truly over before the first intermission, when it was 4-doughnut.

Do you think anyone with any power to do anything about this travesty is getting any visibility to this?

GOPHERFAN119 · Post by **GOPHERFAN119** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:10 pm

Since I first posted the discussion topic last week, there has been almost 1200 views to this forum. I wish more people would post and join in on the discussion.

I hope the powers to be are watching. I am not sure and I doubt it.

It is my opinion, on an annual basis, the HS team should be performing at a higher level with the enrollment and youth hockey association we have.

My 2 cents.

WatchthePuck · Post by **WatchthePuck** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:19 pm

Since there are a few that seem to have capability to do some research on stats I suggest they also look at the following as part of their thought process on this topic:

1. Compare quality of team schedule the last few years. I will suggest the team has played perhaps most difficult schedule of any team in state and this can partly justify the record last few years. I believe they would have had a winning record last few years had they played the type of schedule most teams in the state play every year. Heck I think Wayzata has played Edina 4 times this year already!

2. Go back the last 10 years or so and look at final rankings for Wayzata A teams (Peewee and Bantam). Then with this data look at how the high school team performed (2-4 years later). I think you will see a trend. Wayzata youth hockey is a strong/deep org but they always don't/didn't have A teams in the top 8 in state. In fact many years the teams didn't make it to state tourney and my guess is the older kids on the team today and last year didn't get this chance as a youth. Just a guess. Having said all this, it does seem the last few years Wayzata youth teams have been performing very well at the state level. I think this should turn into top performance at the high school level in the next 2-5 years. Time will tell.

WayOutWest · Post by **WayOutWest** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:34 pm

WatchthePuck wrote:Since there are a few that seem to have capability to do some research on stats I suggest they also look at the following as part of their thought process on this topic:

1. Compare quality of team schedule the last few years. I will suggest the team has played perhaps most difficult schedule of any team in state and this can partly justify the record last few years. I believe they would have had a winning record last few years had they played the type of schedule most teams in the state play every year. Heck I think Wayzata has played Edina 4 times this year already!

2. Go back the last 10 years or so and look at final rankings for Wayzata A teams (Peewee and Bantam). Then with this data look at how the high school team performed (2-4 years later). I think you will see a trend. Wayzata youth hockey is a strong/deep org but they always don't/didn't have A teams in the top 8 in state. In fact many years the teams didn't make it to state tourney and my guess is the older kids on the team today and last year didn't get this chance as a youth. Just a guess. Having said all this, it does seem the last few years Wayzata youth teams have been performing very well at the state level. I think this should turn into top performance at the high school level in the next 2-5 years. Time will tell.

Wayzata's strength of schedule has been extremely tough, in recent years (including this one) but is that just a convenient excuse? They're not exactly blowing away all the "easier" teams on their schedule, either.

No one in this thread has announced that they are expecting a state title, or even a tournament birth. But the size and the success of the association should make the H.S. team pretty competitive, nearly every year. They are underachieving, and it does not appear to be talent related.

GOPHERFAN119 · Post by **GOPHERFAN119** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:28 pm

Yes, Wayzata has had some a very difficult schedules the last few years. I won't disagree. In fact, we should play against the best with the enrollment we have in our district.

Edina, Eden Prairie, Benilde, Centennial, Moorhead, Roseau, Duluth East etc to name a few have played very difficult schedules too.

TOn a different topic, the HS boys football and soccer teams play very demanding and difficult schedules every year too and seem to have more successful teams.

I did pull up the latest Let's Play Hockey Rankings as of Jan 31st.
Bantam A Ranked #2
Bantam B Ranked #2
Pee Wee A Ranked #1
Pee Wee B Ranked #3
Junior Gold A Ranked #11

There is a lot of potential in the future years.

GOPHERFAN119 · Post by **GOPHERFAN119** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:53 pm

This past year, I have been following Joe Howe and Joe Miller in the USHL.
Both seem to be doing quite well for their respective teams.

Joe Howe @ Waterloo - 8-5-1 record 2.27 GAA and .912 SV%
Joe Miller @ Sioux City - 16 goals and 14 assts, 30 pts

I am hoping both receive D1 offers. I have not seen their names posted on the USHL site or Chris Heisenberg's Recruiting Board for college commitments.

Does anyone know if any D1 teams have shown any interest in them or will be making a college choice soon ?

WatchthePuck · Post by **WatchthePuck** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:39 pm

I did some quick research and found a very strong correlation to Bantam A tourney participation (particularly if team won or placed second) and if these same players make it to High School State Tourney a few years later. This was true for Wayzata 2002 Bantam A team (won state) and made it to state high school tourney in 2004.

Not as strong a correlation with PWA state tourney teams and eventual high school tourney participation. Only 2004 PWA champs Edina and 2002 champs Duluth East have the same players made it to High School Tourney in the next 2-3 years.

I'm certain I missed a few so don't be overly critical as I only spent about 20 minutes looking back.

The point is if you have good talent at the higher youth levels this same talent often makes is far at High School level too.

Again, looks like Wayzata to be a power house at high school level in the next 2-4 years at least.

pipes3030 · Post by **pipes3030** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:18 pm

WatchthePuck wrote:I think you will see a trend. Wayzata youth hockey is a strong/deep org but they always don't/didn't have A teams in the top 8 in state.

Exactly, and that depth isnt always staying in the program...I'm not sure if anyone remembers their peewee b-1 team a few years ago that won 29 straight, but there are only two players off of that team playing in the system (Billy Soule, and Bret Day), others have shipped off to Blake, Benilde, and Breck.

WayOutWest · Post by **WayOutWest** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:27 am

pipes3030 wrote: Exactly, and that depth isnt always staying in the program...I'm not sure if anyone remembers their peewee b-1 team a few years ago that won 29 straight, but there are only two players off of that team playing in the system (Billy Soule, and Bret Day), others have shipped off to Blake, Benilde, and Breck.

You didn't truly want to attempt to correlate the success of a single PW B-1 team with anything at the high school level, did you?

I think Edina had a PeeWee C team that just got smoked that same year. Somehow, they've managed to keep things together.

I think you are exaggerating the losses, Pipes.
Wayzata has had huge numbers of kids in the program, for many years. Collectively, there has historically been great success, across all levels, at Wayzata. Losing a few kids to private schools should not have this great of an effect at the high school level........in a program of this size. And Wayzata does not lose markedly more kids than any other program. The whole "well, we lost this kid or that kid" thing really is an insult to the talent that remains, and the quality of the program itself. If you cannot lose a kid, here and there, your program needs some serious work.

Enough excuses, already.

WayOutWest · Post by **WayOutWest** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:30 am

WatchthePuck wrote: Again, looks like Wayzata to be a power house at high school level in the next 2-4 years at least.

So........there IS a coaching change in the mix?

Do elaborate. $\:D/$

WayOutWest · Post by **WayOutWest** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:24 am

Lopresti wrote:You're not happy going to the tournament every 50 years. (2 appearances, 1953, 2003) Wayzata has been, year-in and year out at the top of squirt, pee wee and bantams. I've talked to numerous people close to the program from players, ex-players, parents, and youth coaches and have yet to hear a ringing endorsement of the current coach.

Did anyone catch the posting of the graphic on the Burnsville/Eastview game, last night, showing the longest "no tournament birth" streaks for large AA schools? They were highlighting that it had been 16 years since Burnsville had gone, putting them somewhere close to 10th. But right there at the TOP of the list, was the 50 year gap for Wayzata.

Embarassing.

Obviously, there is an issue there.
Who's running that program, again?

GOPHERFAN119 · Post by **GOPHERFAN119** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:10 am

Do you think the Edina community (hockey assocation, parents, ex players, students, fans etc) would put up with the lack of success like Wayzata has had in recent years ? It is my opinion they would request or seek change.

Their youth teams are ranked very high too in squirts, pee wee's and bantams. If you look at the Lets Play Hockey rankings, Wayzata and Edina's teams are very close to each other in the rankings.

HOFam'r · Post by **HOFam'r** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:28 am

WayOutWest wrote:
HOFam'r wrote: WOW...here's how hockey works...when kids are in the youth programs alot of how good they are is how much money parents throw at training them. As they reach Sophomore and above natural ability takes over and kids that were dominate at the PeeWee level become just another player in HS.

Don't believe look at the Trojans they are prime time examples of it. I will look forward to next Thursday and our rematch with you guys. BTW Carl Davis was at Buffalo before taking over at Wayzata.
Yeah, thanks for the "attempt" at a lesson, Ho. According to your logic, dominant Pee Wee players typically become "just another player" in H.S. That's "how hockey works", eh?
So, you're implying that the Wayzata faithful merely throw $$ at their kids, in thier youth, which produces a good product............and then by high school, reality settles in and we find that the Wayzata kids just didn't have any "natural ability?" Hilarious.
What's in the water, out there in Buffalo?

I love your analysis. It's not unlike listening to Paris Hilton explain nuclear physics.

Shocked WOW that you can't grasp the logic. Then the most talented at each age level leave to spend some more cash at a private...With those kids gone it leaves wayzata with average talent and alot of it...
The point is that Wayzata is at the top youth level because they have a pleathera of depth...their top players (scorers) leave and the High School is left with a lot of kids with the same type of ability.

Sure WOW...blame the coach...must be his fault because little WOW junior won the Squirt League...well WOW JR probably had a kid or two who carried the team whose no longer there....and now it must the coaches fault little WOW JR isn't winning....WOW!

WayOutWest · Post by **WayOutWest** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:46 am

HOFam'r wrote: Shocked WOW that you can't grasp the logic. Then the most talented at each age level leave to spend some more cash at a private...With those kids gone it leaves wayzata with average talent and alot of it...
The point is that Wayzata is at the top youth level because they have a pleathera of depth...their top players (scorers) leave and the High School is left with a lot of kids with the same type of ability.

Sure WOW...blame the coach...must be his fault because little WOW junior won the Squirt League...well WOW JR probably had a kid or two who carried the team whose no longer there....and now it must the coaches fault little WOW JR isn't winning....WOW!

Your assumptions are numerous and creative, Ho.

Show me some proof that Wayzata loses more talent than any other program, on a regular basis. (Hint: Don't bother. It isn't there.)

You also seem to believe that there is this THIN layer of talent in any given program, which if removed, can result in the ruin of said program. That's more than a bit ludicrous, in a program the size of Wayzata's. Even if it were, who would be responsible for not developing talent depth, in such a large program? The kids???? The parents???

The facts are, there is plenty of depth in the Wayzata program. It just isn't revealed at the high school varsity level, for some reason. That only points to one thing, Ho. (Let me know if you cannot connect the dots on your own.)