What do you guys think if it went back to the old days of one class? There are a lot of A teams that compete and beat AA teams and have one big 16 team State Tournamnet. It will solve the problem of nobody going to the A games and will just force those teams to get better.
Proctor vs C-E-C = 0-3
Duluth Marshall vs Minnetonka = 2-3
International Falls vs Roseau = 1-3
International Falls vs Grand Rapids = 3-2
Hermantown vs Hopkins = 2-3
St.Thomas vs Benilde-St. Margaret's School = 6-4
Thief River Falls H.S. vs Moorhead = 3-1
To name a very few
Old Ways
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
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stpaulpuck
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I hate to admit when the MSHSL is right but I think the addition of Class A has done great things for hockey in formerly non-hockey markets (Fergus, Little Falls, Mankato, etc.).
Plus, the level of play in the A tourney has really come a long way. Marshall Mankato was a better game to watch than Roseau Blaine.
As great as it was, we'll never see one class again - I'd worry about them trying to create another class.
Plus, the level of play in the A tourney has really come a long way. Marshall Mankato was a better game to watch than Roseau Blaine.
As great as it was, we'll never see one class again - I'd worry about them trying to create another class.
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State Champ 97
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- Location: Bemidji
Re: Old Ways
One of the most sensible ideas I've heard. Give the same number of teams the opotunity to play at the X, don't have a lesser tourney, and ALL schools involved.....TheShow wrote:What do you guys think if it went back to the old days of one class? There are a lot of A teams that compete and beat AA teams and have one big 16 team State Tournamnet. It will solve the problem of nobody going to the A games and will just force those teams to get better.
Proctor vs C-E-C = 0-3
Duluth Marshall vs Minnetonka = 2-3
International Falls vs Roseau = 1-3
International Falls vs Grand Rapids = 3-2
Hermantown vs Hopkins = 2-3
St.Thomas vs Benilde-St. Margaret's School = 6-4
Thief River Falls H.S. vs Moorhead = 3-1
To name a very few
3 classes is highly likely. The domination of private schools in A along with history of the MSHSL will turn it to that, right or wrong. As soon as a significant group becomes non competeitive they add another class. There are a total of 3-5 teams that have any chance of winning the A title year in and year out right now. In AA it's probably closer to 20, that's not the problem, it's A hockey.
They have 3 choices:
1) Change the method of determining Class - won't happen, it would be illegal to do it for only one sport and the only real problem is hockey.
2) Keep it the way it is - it's non competetive above the section level now
3) add another class - possibly the only legitimate option but won't solve anything.
I would hope the member schools would be able to police themselves but after hearing comments from the STA AD and coach among others I now realize it's about trophies, not about competition.
They have 3 choices:
1) Change the method of determining Class - won't happen, it would be illegal to do it for only one sport and the only real problem is hockey.
2) Keep it the way it is - it's non competetive above the section level now
3) add another class - possibly the only legitimate option but won't solve anything.
I would hope the member schools would be able to police themselves but after hearing comments from the STA AD and coach among others I now realize it's about trophies, not about competition.
goldy313 wrote:3 classes is highly likely. The domination of private schools in A along with history of the MSHSL will turn it to that, right or wrong. As soon as a significant group becomes non competeitive they add another class. There are a total of 3-5 teams that have any chance of winning the A title year in and year out right now. In AA it's probably closer to 20, that's not the problem, it's A hockey.
They have 3 choices:
1) Change the method of determining Class - won't happen, it would be illegal to do it for only one sport and the only real problem is hockey.
2) Keep it the way it is - it's non competetive above the section level now
3) add another class - possibly the only legitimate option but won't solve anything.
I would hope the member schools would be able to police themselves but after hearing comments from the STA AD and coach among others I now realize it's about trophies, not about competition.
I was really sorry to hear STA AD's comments also. St. Thomas needs to make a decision. If you want to keep up and have a top notch program, go AA. If not, let the Vanelli brothers go somewhere that will. Clearly going AA harmed Benilde and they can no longer compete. St. Thomas would have been a top 2 seed in any section in state. I think they would be in 3AA and probably would have gone over Woodbury. But we can debate until we're blue in the face and it won't change anything.
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pondyplayer93
- Posts: 313
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how did going aa hurt benilde??Sparlimb wrote:goldy313 wrote:3 classes is highly likely. The domination of private schools in A along with history of the MSHSL will turn it to that, right or wrong. As soon as a significant group becomes non competeitive they add another class. There are a total of 3-5 teams that have any chance of winning the A title year in and year out right now. In AA it's probably closer to 20, that's not the problem, it's A hockey.
They have 3 choices:
1) Change the method of determining Class - won't happen, it would be illegal to do it for only one sport and the only real problem is hockey.
2) Keep it the way it is - it's non competetive above the section level now
3) add another class - possibly the only legitimate option but won't solve anything.
I would hope the member schools would be able to police themselves but after hearing comments from the STA AD and coach among others I now realize it's about trophies, not about competition.
I was really sorry to hear STA AD's comments also. St. Thomas needs to make a decision. If you want to keep up and have a top notch program, go AA. If not, let the Vanelli brothers go somewhere that will. Clearly going AA harmed Benilde and they can no longer compete. St. Thomas would have been a top 2 seed in any section in state. I think they would be in 3AA and probably would have gone over Woodbury. But we can debate until we're blue in the face and it won't change anything.
they just crushed the "#1" seed and they should have beaten edina yesterday
Hill-Murray
St. Thomas
2008 Champs
St. Thomas
2008 Champs
Here are some of the most common arguments for what the MSHSL should do with the state tournament:
1: Have separate public school and private school state tournaments. I personally would enjoy this because I think private schools are unnecessary, but I also realize that if this were to happen we would never have a true state champion, which would be terrible.
2: Go back to a single class system with 16 teams. This has the upside of getting the best 16 teams together in one tournament, but also eliminates many of the small northern schools from state tournament competition because there's just no way a team like Little Falls, who was in the A tournament, could compete with a team like Minnetonka or Burnsville, neither of whom was in the AA tournament.
3: Force all private schools to play AA. This also seems like a fair solution at first glance because we think that all private schools have a much larger pool of talent to choose from than public schools, but in reality this is true for probably 4 or 5 private schools in the state. This would also eliminate some of the good, but not great, private schools from state competition. An example from this year would be Blake, who made the A tourney but probably could not have come out of any AA section in the state (with the possible, but not necessarily likely, exception of 1AA).
In a perfect world, we could keep the 2 class system and base which teams play A/AA not on enrollment, but on ability. There really is no realistic way of doing this, so I think we should stick with what we have now and hope that STA grows some balls in the near future and decides to compete with teams who play at their level.
1: Have separate public school and private school state tournaments. I personally would enjoy this because I think private schools are unnecessary, but I also realize that if this were to happen we would never have a true state champion, which would be terrible.
2: Go back to a single class system with 16 teams. This has the upside of getting the best 16 teams together in one tournament, but also eliminates many of the small northern schools from state tournament competition because there's just no way a team like Little Falls, who was in the A tournament, could compete with a team like Minnetonka or Burnsville, neither of whom was in the AA tournament.
3: Force all private schools to play AA. This also seems like a fair solution at first glance because we think that all private schools have a much larger pool of talent to choose from than public schools, but in reality this is true for probably 4 or 5 private schools in the state. This would also eliminate some of the good, but not great, private schools from state competition. An example from this year would be Blake, who made the A tourney but probably could not have come out of any AA section in the state (with the possible, but not necessarily likely, exception of 1AA).
In a perfect world, we could keep the 2 class system and base which teams play A/AA not on enrollment, but on ability. There really is no realistic way of doing this, so I think we should stick with what we have now and hope that STA grows some balls in the near future and decides to compete with teams who play at their level.
Everyone hates private schools (and Edina)!!
I assume he was being sarcasticpondyplayer93 wrote:how did going aa hurt benilde??Sparlimb wrote:goldy313 wrote:3 classes is highly likely. The domination of private schools in A along with history of the MSHSL will turn it to that, right or wrong. As soon as a significant group becomes non competeitive they add another class. There are a total of 3-5 teams that have any chance of winning the A title year in and year out right now. In AA it's probably closer to 20, that's not the problem, it's A hockey.
They have 3 choices:
1) Change the method of determining Class - won't happen, it would be illegal to do it for only one sport and the only real problem is hockey.
2) Keep it the way it is - it's non competetive above the section level now
3) add another class - possibly the only legitimate option but won't solve anything.
I would hope the member schools would be able to police themselves but after hearing comments from the STA AD and coach among others I now realize it's about trophies, not about competition.
I was really sorry to hear STA AD's comments also. St. Thomas needs to make a decision. If you want to keep up and have a top notch program, go AA. If not, let the Vanelli brothers go somewhere that will. Clearly going AA harmed Benilde and they can no longer compete. St. Thomas would have been a top 2 seed in any section in state. I think they would be in 3AA and probably would have gone over Woodbury. But we can debate until we're blue in the face and it won't change anything.
they just crushed the "#1" seed and they should have beaten edina yesterday
Everyone hates private schools (and Edina)!!
Classes, In general
I only watched a little bit this year, as I have for the last several years. There is one reason: Resources have become so dominant in hockey that frankly I don't see the best groups of athletes playing it. I remember a couple years ago when the broadcast was honoring an old timer. He thanked them, and then was asked about the tourney. He immediately went into how allowing the private schools in way back when was a mistake, and that he had argued against it, and what he had stated then had come to fruition. He was then treated like a doddering old man subject to scorn and sympathy. It is reality, however. Youth hockey has not been about developing talent for a long, long time. It is about who has the most resources. And we see that in general, whether it is the private schools ( Class A was a joke, placing Marshall or St. Thomas against small communities is laughable), or AA, where the finalists include a large private school and the wealthiest community in the state of Minnesota. It is not a state high-school tourney; it is a battle of parental resources. Having been through the process long ago, I am now perhaps a radical. Frankly, sports, at this level in schools, should be eliminated, and the Canadian or European development model brought forth. You wish to develop in hockey, go do that. I did that, going to major juniors. Do not let it filter into the limited resources of our schools. It was one thing when hockey was community based and small or outdoor rinks were the norm. It is another thing to see this laughable farce, where the comparison should be a per player money-spent ratio over lifetime and a handicapping system.
Rapids
I was being sarcastic. Benilde was an elite team at the AA level this year. STA could do the same.pondyplayer93 wrote:how did going aa hurt benilde??Sparlimb wrote:goldy313 wrote:3 classes is highly likely. The domination of private schools in A along with history of the MSHSL will turn it to that, right or wrong. As soon as a significant group becomes non competeitive they add another class. There are a total of 3-5 teams that have any chance of winning the A title year in and year out right now. In AA it's probably closer to 20, that's not the problem, it's A hockey.
They have 3 choices:
1) Change the method of determining Class - won't happen, it would be illegal to do it for only one sport and the only real problem is hockey.
2) Keep it the way it is - it's non competetive above the section level now
3) add another class - possibly the only legitimate option but won't solve anything.
I would hope the member schools would be able to police themselves but after hearing comments from the STA AD and coach among others I now realize it's about trophies, not about competition.
I was really sorry to hear STA AD's comments also. St. Thomas needs to make a decision. If you want to keep up and have a top notch program, go AA. If not, let the Vanelli brothers go somewhere that will. Clearly going AA harmed Benilde and they can no longer compete. St. Thomas would have been a top 2 seed in any section in state. I think they would be in 3AA and probably would have gone over Woodbury. But we can debate until we're blue in the face and it won't change anything.
they just crushed the "#1" seed and they should have beaten edina yesterday
Re: Classes, In general
miskwaa wrote:I only watched a little bit this year, as I have for the last several years. There is one reason: Resources have become so dominant in hockey that frankly I don't see the best groups of athletes playing it. I remember a couple years ago when the broadcast was honoring an old timer. He thanked them, and then was asked about the tourney. He immediately went into how allowing the private schools in way back when was a mistake, and that he had argued against it, and what he had stated then had come to fruition. He was then treated like a doddering old man subject to scorn and sympathy. It is reality, however. Youth hockey has not been about developing talent for a long, long time. It is about who has the most resources. And we see that in general, whether it is the private schools ( Class A was a joke, placing Marshall or St. Thomas against small communities is laughable), or AA, where the finalists include a large private school and the wealthiest community in the state of Minnesota. It is not a state high-school tourney; it is a battle of parental resources. Having been through the process long ago, I am now perhaps a radical. Frankly, sports, at this level in schools, should be eliminated, and the Canadian or European development model brought forth. You wish to develop in hockey, go do that. I did that, going to major juniors. Do not let it filter into the limited resources of our schools. It was one thing when hockey was community based and small or outdoor rinks were the norm. It is another thing to see this laughable farce, where the comparison should be a per player money-spent ratio over lifetime and a handicapping system.
I completey agree but a handicapping sysytem will never fly. I think the tournament should continue to be a 2 tier tourney but put the private schools should be in their own section in AA. They have enough resources to travel etc... . As for the arguement that there are some privates that are not as strong as other privates- welcome to our world!! Do you think Ely is as remotely strong as Hibbing year after year? NO, but they still play in the same section and you don't here them whining about it. It would still probably mean a public/private battle in the final of AA to continue and satisfy that debate but, at least the smaller communities in A would have a fairer playing field. Komada77 every year "good but not great" small public teams are loosing out because of this debacle. Do you all think the kid playing in Sleepy eye has any less passion for the game than the kid playing at STA? It's just location and resources that are the difference.
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pondyplayer93
- Posts: 313
- Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:05 pm
oh i apologize haha i did not catch onSparlimb wrote:I was being sarcastic. Benilde was an elite team at the AA level this year. STA could do the same.pondyplayer93 wrote:how did going aa hurt benilde??Sparlimb wrote:
I was really sorry to hear STA AD's comments also. St. Thomas needs to make a decision. If you want to keep up and have a top notch program, go AA. If not, let the Vanelli brothers go somewhere that will. Clearly going AA harmed Benilde and they can no longer compete. St. Thomas would have been a top 2 seed in any section in state. I think they would be in 3AA and probably would have gone over Woodbury. But we can debate until we're blue in the face and it won't change anything.
they just crushed the "#1" seed and they should have beaten edina yesterday
Hill-Murray
St. Thomas
2008 Champs
St. Thomas
2008 Champs
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pondyplayer93
- Posts: 313
- Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:05 pm