Ref'ing at Bantam A state tournament

[wannagototherink]

Ok, I can say this because I am not affiliated with any team playing in it, so take this from a fans perspective. I have to say that the way the games have been called in Edina all weekend have been brutal...Now I also have to say that even with that, the ref's haven't "screwed" any team specifically, but the way the games have been called is down right disappointing. The games have no flow, they have called penalties that are suspect at best. Games are averaging 20 penalties. I've followed all these teams fairly closely this season and I have a hard time remember seeing any of these teams play "dirty". I attribute it to the tournament being hosted by district 6. Does anyone have any thoughts on it? I don't know maybe I'm wrong in my observation but like I said I have no stake in any of the teams competing, it's just what I've seen as a fan.

[HavinFun]

I must say that I respectfully disagree with your thoughts. The games that I have seen (all but two all weekend) have been called very well. Yes, there have been a few more penalties than I would have liked to have seen, but the officials have taken what was there. I find it funny that people jump on the officials right away and say that the officials are taking the game away or taking the flow away. The officials are reacting to what the players are doing.

I must say as a casual hockey fan, I was extremely dissapointed with the Edina team parents and coaches. I thought it was really funny when the Edina coach sent a parent to ask the Supervisor of Officials a question in the middle of the game because he didn't like the officials call on the ice, which to me was blantantly obvious what was called and why it was. Not too much class was shown and in my opinion they should have had quite a few more penalties than they received.

[ice00breaker]

Unquestionably poor. This has been the case the ENTIRE season in district 6. I have no horses in this race either, but that FLOW comment is one that has been echoed time and again in District6. There have been a number of teams that have scrimmaged D6 teams (on D6 ice where D6 refs MUST be used) that have been dumbfounded by the way games have been called all season. They ask, "is it always like this?" - and the answer is a resounding "Yes".

I must say, I did not attend any of the state games as yet, but I did listen to some of them on the net. And it is clear that they continue abuse their powers and ruin the great game of hockey. Please don't get me wrong, I am not trying to be a ref basher, and I do believe the games should be called by the rules - but I KNOW these games do not get called with the best interests OF THE GAME in mind. The flow is consistently ruined and they are doing these kids no favors - many of these kids will go on to high school next year and wonder what hit them, because better than half of the menial penalties will NOT be called at the high school level.

LET THEM PLAY THE GAME!!!!

Mr. Kemp, you should be ashamed of yourself. THhis is all under your direction!!!

[ice00breaker]

Oh, and fun... where are you from?? No WAY you are from D6.

[HavinFun]

You are correct I am not from District 6 and I stand firm that yes there were more penalties called than I would like to see, but they were all there. The officials are reacting to what the players are doing, I don't recall seeing a phantom call in the 6 (of 8 ) games I have seen, if any I saw a number of non calls that could have been taken.

I am not affiliated with any team in the tournament either. Interesting that we have different opinions wannagototherink, reading some of your recent posts I agree with most of your assessments!!

[ice00breaker]

Fun - here is my issue: yes, the calls are there - THEY ARE ALWAYS THERE. The question becomes: Do the calls they are making have a direct result on the play? Way too may times I have seen them blow the whistle and take two players off when they were both simply playing for position - or battling for a loose puck. What's the point? Now the game stops (no flow), and nothing has changed (5v5). Furthermore, they will never get called on that in high school. Again - what's the point?

[HavinFun]

Ice - I agree in the situation that you indicated there is no reason to blow the whistle. Keep on playing, no harm was done and the result after the whistle will be the same except that the flow is completely gone, just like you mentioned.

Most of the penalties that I have seen this tournament (and the ones I speak of when I mention that they were there) involve high hits (lots of these) and trips/hooks which definately take away a potential scoring opportunity, plus for some reason I have seen goalies from every team getting ran lots this tournament. As far as the hits go, I'm a huge fan of a big hit, just not to the head, and as far as taking away a scoring opportunity I would assume that we would be on the same page there.

[ice00breaker]

No question. Not a problem with those, they should be called (and yes, there has been an inordinate number of hits near the head). They are GOOD calls. There simply needs to be better judgement in the calls that NEED to be made. And as I said, I did not see any of the games this weekend - just several over the season - and they (at least) were consistently poorly refereed.

[wannagototherink]

You are correct I am not from District 6 and I stand firm that yes there were more penalties called than I would like to see, but they were all there. The officials are reacting to what the players are doing, I don't recall seeing a phantom call in the 6 (of 8 ) games I have seen, if any I saw a number of non calls that could have been taken.

I am not affiliated with any team in the tournament either. Interesting that we have different opinions wannagototherink, reading some of your recent posts I agree with most of your assessments!!

Ok my problem with the way the games are being called is in reference to there being so many of the ticky tack penalties that have been called, or the good, clean, hard physical hits that have been called boarding or interference. I believe it should be taken into consideration what kind of tournament is being played. Is the Eden Praire tournament as important in terms of meaningful games as the State Tournament? Of course not, state tournaments should not be called as tight as your everyday association weekend tournament.

Here is my assessment of what has gone on. District Ref-in-Chief Dave Kemp is in charge of officials, obviously because D6 is hosting the tournament. (Dave is a great guy btw) Now I don't think it is any secret that when it comes to which districts call games, especially in the metro, D6 is right up near the top when it comes to calling a "tight" game. I mean do you see the mouth guard call for a ten minute misconduct ever called in any other districts? I'm sure you do, but not to the extent that you find in D6 games and this is not a debate for whether that approach (calling tight games) is right or wrong. But that is how Dave wants his guys to call games...fine. However, these are the biggest tournaments of the year in regards to Minnesota Hockey. I don't think Dave's standards should apply to the the officials coming in from other districts but they have to if those ref's are wanting to be assigned to the more meaningful games. Who can blame them though, it must be a real honor to be chosen to ref the state final if you are a referee. In any event these ref's (non D6) aren't calling games like they do when they are in their own districts.


Example 1...The ref who did the Wayzata/DE game as well as the Wayzata/EP game, called the games in region tournament NOTHING like he has called those two games this weekend. I watched him do the Cent/DE game, I believe the GR/Centennial game and also the St. Cloud/DE game. He let those kids play and did a tremendous job of ref'ing those games. This weekends he has called penalties like boarding/head contact and it was just hard hits that sounded big.

Example 2...I watched the guy who did the Edina/Centennial game, and admitedly this is not the best example because that game was somewhat a zoo. But I have watched that guy do maybe half a dozen games with either Wayzata or Maple Grove and he is nonexistant. Today he called things I don't think he would call if they weren't playing with the D6 standard.

Example 3...the D2 guys are you kidding me? Those guys let the kids play as well as anyone in the metro and they have been forced to call things like they are looking for penalties and not just calling them when they occur.

I just personally am very disappointed with the standard used to call games for the state tournament. Whatever, I guess it is what it is, and like I said I don't believe anyone has gotten "screwed" by a call all weekend, the are called equally to both teams in each of the games. I just think it's too bad because a majority of the people at the games think there is way to much referee presenses in these games. But to their credit they have all acted professionally and done their jobs to the best of their ability. I believe they have been giving an honost effort and thats really all you can ask for. Be interesting to find out privately how these guys feel about having to enforce the D6 standard. Like I said I've observed all of these guys throughout this year and previous years and it's not typical.

[greybeard58]

The fact that District 6 has the Referee's call it tighter is nothing new and most of the teams have played games in the District. What is amazing is that the players and coaches have been slow to make the adjustments after seeing just what will be called. There usually is a meeting before the tournament with the coaches and the Supervisor of Officials and it is explained to the coaches how they will be calling the games,it sounds like one group paid attention.
Just because this is a State tournament a referee does not put the whistle in the pocket.
The referees are out there to enforce the rules, it is the choice of the players and coached on the way they play the game. Do you want to see in Youth Hockey some of the games you see in the State High school where players get checked head first into the boards, the game is stopped while the player is attended to for 5 minutes and the offender would either get nothing or a minor.
BTW show all of us where in the rule book hard hits into the boards or head contact is allowed. These are all points of emphasis in the rule book. If the referee is calling it the same for both teams, then no one should be complaining except when they call nothing.
Remember this is still youth hockey.

[wannagototherink]

The fact that District 6 has the Referee's call it tighter is nothing new and most of the teams have played games in the District. What is amazing is that the players and coaches have been slow to make the adjustments after seeing just what will be called. There usually is a meeting before the tournament with the coaches and the Supervisor of Officials and it is explained to the coaches how they will be calling the games,it sounds like one group paid attention.
Just because this is a State tournament a referee does not put the whistle in the pocket.
The referees are out there to enforce the rules, it is the choice of the players and coached on the way they play the game. Do you want to see in Youth Hockey some of the games you see in the State High school where players get checked head first into the boards, the game is stopped while the player is attended to for 5 minutes and the offender would either get nothing or a minor.
BTW show all of us where in the rule book hard hits into the boards or head contact is allowed. These are all points of emphasis in the rule book. If the referee is calling it the same for both teams, then no one should be complaining except when they call nothing.
Remember this is still youth hockey.

I'm sorry greybeard, but I'm just sick of your holy'er than thou responses to every post on here. But I guess it's my own fault I asked the question. Yeah I'm gonna tell you it is ok to give a good hard body check into the boards. I am also gonna tell you that yes, I would rather have it like the High School tournament where they may error on the side of not calling something vs. calling something. My next questions is, have you been to the games at Braemar this weekend? They aren't as enjoyable to watch because of the ref's, and again I am saying that as a FAN of hockey.

Yes, everyone is aware that D6 calls a tight game, but these aren''t D6 officials. But I know if there is someone who is not going to look at anything in a grey area, and that the world is a cut and dry place it's you greybeard. But I guess I should expect that. By the way you should pick up the book "The Code" You would realize that the spirit of hockey does not lie in its rule book.



Greybeard I do commend you on staying true to your convictions though.

[Tenoverpar]

We played about 12 games or so in D6 land this year and the REF's in D6 in my opinion believe the game is about them and not the kids on the ice. They are thin skinned, call miniscule crap that won't even come close to being a penalty in high school, try too hard to control the game and I can't fathom how any games get done in the allotted time period. If you hit someone hard, it's a head contact or charging. If you even look at the ref with a sense of disappointment in the call, you get an extra 2 minutes. If there isn't at least one person in the penalty box at all times, someone is getting a penalty. It's just ridiculous the way these guys call the game. I can't imagine that these guys, and they are just guys like you and me, can leave the ice and think they were just superb in their performance. And I'm not just talking about games with our team, I've watched at least 24 games bef/aft in the same rinks with the sam REFs and it's always the same.

Heck, at least they are consistent, I have to give them that much. GO D6, Best Refs in..in...in..well, in D6 because none of us want that anywhere else.

We could always just BOYCOTT D6 for the next couple years. If you are in another district, just don't bother playing any game there or any tournaments. Tell the opposing schedulers the truth..."we're not coming to your house because our players will undoubtedly spend more time in the box and short handed than is worth the trip and the frustration"

[mn man]

I was at one of the games yesterday and have to say I agree with TOP and wanngototherink. I am used to it though and don't get too worked up by it any more. I just know it is a real relief going somewhere else and getting refs that do not take over the game.
One of the problems with calling them this tight especially earlier in the game is that eventually, the refs seem to either get tired or think, "well, now we can let them play a bit", and then the same plays that were called earlier in the game as penalties are now OK, as happened yesterday. No one in the rink understands what a real penalty is anymore.

[Doglover]

The calls have been way too tight all weekend. No teams have received special treatment. There is no flow to the games and the calls are ruining what could've have been some great games. The Centennial/Edina game yesterday could've been a great match up if there hadn't been so many questionable calls early in the game. I really hope the refs do a better job today and the kids can play hockey.

[wannagototherink]

The calls have been way too tight all weekend. No teams have received special treatment. There is no flow to the games and the calls are ruining what could've have been some great games. The Centennial/Edina game yesterday could've been a great match up if there hadn't been so many questionable calls early in the game. I really hope the refs do a better job today and the kids can play hockey.

I think you'll see the ref's call the game a little closer to how they would in their home districts today, simply because they are no longer "trying out" for that Championship game. That I believe is 100% why the games have been called the way they have. Dave Kemp demands that D6 officials call things tight, thats his style...certainly not a shot at Dave, he is a tremendous guy he just takes the rulebook more literal than say they do in Duluth or Roseau or even in Wayzata for that matter. So if the guys from outside the D6 that have come into ref don't follow that model they won't be working today and if they are it will be the lower down the game list.

Truthfully I don't know how you'd even fix the issue because it is just the way it is if D6 is going to host the state tournament. But it's too bad the games weren't played this weekend 5 on 5 instead of as a special teams fest.

Some kids (3rd liners) haven't played that much this weekend because the don't kill penalties or aren't on the power play units. Which is too bad for them too, and the coaches really because they'll get heat for not playing their 3rd liners enough.

Again it is what it is....

[thenumber4]

I am a player in the state tournament and I think its sad that the refferies are controlling the games as much as they are. For me it kind of takes away the fun it feels like the refferies decide who wins and not the players. If the refs were going to change anything I think they should let us play more instead of calling something every minnute.

[TrojanMan1]

I also was a part of the state tourney. I infact was involved in that cenntenial/edina game and it is down right embarrasing how the refs called that game. The only flow in the whole game was during warm ups. The only time when anything got going was the first 5 minutes when the cougars put two away, but then after that the game was ruined because there was always someone in the box. Twice edina had four players in the box. Centennial seemed to have a guy in the box a lot too.

[6moorhead]

I was in the consolation game against Duluth East and we where on the penalty kill pretty much the entire game. there was alot of soft calls that probably should not have been called, there was also a few that they did not call on Duluth not making excuses or anything cause i know we lost and thats that but i thought the refs where terrible.

[Hockeyguy_27]

Ok, I can say this because I am not affiliated with any team playing in it, so take this from a fans perspective. I have to say that the way the games have been called in Edina all weekend have been brutal...Now I also have to say that even with that, the ref's haven't "screwed" any team specifically, but the way the games have been called is down right disappointing. The games have no flow, they have called penalties that are suspect at best. Games are averaging 20 penalties. I've followed all these teams fairly closely this season and I have a hard time remember seeing any of these teams play "dirty". I attribute it to the tournament being hosted by district 6. Does anyone have any thoughts on it? I don't know maybe I'm wrong in my observation but like I said I have no stake in any of the teams competing, it's just what I've seen as a fan.

I didn't see the Bantam games but don't get me started on the Pee Wee A state tournament officiating. It was ATROCIOUS. These assclowns were awful to both teams in several games. I usually cut the refs some slack and realize they have bad games because they're human but this was so awful it was beyond bad. Sorry to hear the Bantam tournament was inadequately officiated as well.

[HavinFun]

Wow, where to start here, I know I am going to miss something so just to forwarn, I will probably be leaving back to back posts.

Also, I have absolutely no affiliation with any team at the tournament.

6moorhead - By your comments I wonder if you were even at the game. From what I saw the Moorhead coaches should be extremely embarrassed of themselves. Arguing calls when there player clearly runs the goalie. Going after the officials after the game because the timekeeper started the clock late, boy that's the officials fault isn't it???? Every penalty Moorhead took was absolutely there, they weren't even maybe calls, they were all black and white. Tell me, when you are shorthanded already, why take a big two hander, to put your team down 5 on 3? I'll stop here, but can go on if you would like. Basically Moorhead definately took themselves out of this game.

TrojanMan1 - The only embarrasing thing I saw at this game was the Edina coaches and parents, which eventually filtered to the players. Edina took themselves out of the game as soon as Centennial scored the first goal. So I don't get to carried away, I'll end this by saying that I expected alot more from Edina, I guess they don't know how to lose.

thenumber4 - The officials are reacting to what you players are doing, they aren't making things up. The players are deciding everything by their actions on the ice, not the officials. Just go out and play hockey.

wannagototherink - FYI, almost all of the state tournament games are officiated by a crew not from one of the teams home districts (you did not see a district 6 or disctrict 10 crew work the championship game, because of the teams present). Also, I am still a little surprised by some of the comments you have made on this topic (infact even starting it at all??). Lets look at the Wayzata/Eden Prairie game you referred to: How many head contact penalties must an official call before the message gets sent to keep you hands down. The first one that was taken was extremely obvious, from there on, whenever someone got hit in the head it had to be called in order to remain consistent (I believe you spoke of consistency as well, maybe your version is different, who knows???)

"The Code" is an excellent book, and I would highly recommend it to everyone.

Doglover - Are you serious?? The Centennial/Edina game was a zoo because of the Edina coaches and Parents, I firmly believe that it had nothing to do with the officiating, in fact I believe that the officials did a great job with the situation they were placed in.

Again I had absolutely no affiliation with any of the team present.

[Doglover]

Havin Fun - No affiliation to any team - just the refs apparently.

You must have been watching different games than the rest of us, including the great MSBN announcers. We all have biases - and we view the games accordingly.

I think you're wrong about the Edina fans/coaches/players. I think Centennial was very good at getting the Edina team to play "their" style game and Centennial was just obviously much better at it. Credit to them! I thought Edina showed class in their loss on their home rink. No sticks were thrown and they got in line and congratulated the Cougars. On that day, they got beat by a better team. The refs didn't favor either side - I think they just did a poor job and it's my guess from the info on here that they probably didn't like having to call it so tight either. I thought the EP/Centennial game was much better as predicted. Congrats to EP.

[greybeard58]

Wannago, I was unable to be at the Edina this past weekend as I had other things more pressing than hockey. I did contact a person who has attended the last 15 A Bantam State tournaments and has been involved at this level for over 20 years. His comments to me agree were that what was called was earned and in the Edina -Centennial game thought the referee was generous when he assessed two minor penalties rather than sending the player off the ice and out of the game. He also stated that the top graded crew did not work the Championship game because of who was playing, also that Eden Prairie was the better team in the Championship game.

I also do not agree with the D6 interpretation of the Standards of play, but if I would bring a team into the District I would make my players aware.

As to the black and white, a lot what goes into the decision of calling a penalty( did the illegal action cause a change of possession, a loss of a scoring opportunity or injury potential) is not in the gray area, if the answer to the above 3 questions is yes call the penalty, if the answer is no then he has a decision on what he wants the standard to be this game there is the gray area. In the one game it was mentioned a clear head contact was made and penalty was called, message to players and coaches keep the hands in and away from the head, the players chose to either pay attention or not.

Having been at a lot of games over the years, you see parents complain when their son gets hit in what they believe should have been a penalty, but when their son does the same thing it is a clean play.
If you feel so strong about the level of officiating get involved either as an official or with a Local, District, State or the national orginazation. For the players get involved as an official it can be some nice part time money and probably change your perspective of the game.

Personally I prefer what is there now to no blood no foul, as I did see players get hurt because of the mentality of some officials years ago who felt that way. I have also seen to many who will change what they believe in depending on which way the wind is blowing,living constantly in the gray area world can keep people getting into trouble, but allows for many descriptions of the same event which all could be accurate depending which shade of gray you are using.

[iseepalms]

Why does it take a state tournament for everyone to see that ref's are just not as good as they once were and it is either there way or nothing. When you see a good hockey game change is when the refs decide they need to be noticed. The only people that make money on this game are the refs and very few coaches all the rest of us do it for either our kids or the love of the game.

[FREDFLINTSTONE]

I heard that the refs got paid a bonus of $1 per penalty. Is that correct? I also heard that one ref is now going on spring break with all the extra cash he earned.

[inthestands]

Why does it take a state tournament for everyone to see that ref's are just not as good as they once were and it is either there way or nothing. When you see a good hockey game change is when the refs decide they need to be noticed. The only people that make money on this game are the refs and very few coaches all the rest of us do it for either our kids or the love of the game.

Let's get all them darn refs and coaches to donate their time for the love of the game.... Just like you do.

Here's an idea. You should take a referee whistle, and a coaching whistle at the start of each season. Get a sign up board for all your best friends and parents to sign up for each practice and game. One set to officiate, the other to coach each practice and games the team has for the season. Let us all know how you do filling that sign up sheet out, and what tropical island you make it too with all the money you made.

I get a kick out of how many people love to complain, but have no level of responsibility for improving things.