How does all this tie in with the thread last month about "mega-associations". A group there was advocating that the current A level needs to be further diluted by forcing the strongest associations to have two equal A teams. This will allow the smaller associations to be more competitive by making other teams weaker, not by making smaller associations stronger.
Tier 1 would make the current A level more balanced because the best teams would lose 2-3 players and the others would lose fewer, if any.
I disagree. The "megas" since they already compete at the AAA level. These associations have proven they can win against AAA teams, Shattuck, at the Fargo tourney, etc. Kids won't leave these programs.
If you are worried about watering down talent by refusing to have 2 A teams for the "megas," (BTW - does anyone really believe you can't develop kids if you field field 2 A teams out of a 175-200 kids?) then allow Tier 1 hockey for kids from other associations to play at that level.
If you want community hockey to thrive, then level the playing field so that winning is based on coaching and development and not the size of your association.
Are associations subsidizing the cost of new skaters in the lower levels such as mites by charging the upper level players more in order to make it easier for new skaters to try hockey ? if yes then having a tier 1 would hurt all associations as they would have less players paying into there association and subsidizing the new skaters. if not I bet there is still some economies of scale that would be hurt by removing players from the associations revenue stream that would hurt the entire association and community
hockeyparent11 wrote:Much to think about and I will add this.
How does all this tie in with the thread last month about "mega-associations". A group there was advocating that the current A level needs to be further diluted by forcing the strongest associations to have two equal A teams. This will allow the smaller associations to be more competitive by making other teams weaker, not by making smaller associations stronger.
Tier 1 would make the current A level more balanced because the best teams would lose 2-3 players and the others would lose fewer, if any.
At the same time, Tier 1 provides another opportunity for those who want to make a bigger sacrifice of time and money.
Tier 1 seems to provide more opportunities for people to get what they want. Why not do this?
good post, some people get it! the sky won't fall fred.
ther fact is we cant please everyone; but we should try to keep improving on what we have. try it; if it doesnt work fine move on subject over.
if it does work mn hockey just made new advancements in its overall program and caters to a bigger population of hockey players.
I think it would be great to see MN boy's representing this state on a national level.
Should Tier 1 be allowed to exist in MN-I think so. Do we need it-I do not think we do.
Doug Riseborough has stated on numerous occasions that the best youth hockey in the world is being played in MN. So we must be doing something right. I think the difference today is that people who have played at a high level (college and Pro) are starting to integrate themselves into the associations and are starting to influence them in a positive way. I think the USA hockey efforts to get drills and philosophies also has helped a lot.
Looking back when I was growing up, there was not the quality instruction we see today, just kids thowing the puck out there and playing. Most of us did not understand edges, knee bend, wrist roll and all the other skills we teach our 5+ year olds now (though one of my buddies was still drafted and played a couple NHL games). You can't go 10 feet in these mega-association arenas on a winter weekend without running into someone who played college or pro. Therefor, there is a tremendous number of role models out there which give the Minnesota kid the feeling they can make it. How many NBA, MLB, and NFL players come from this area? Not many, which I think influences the parents of good athletes to steer them towards hockey where making it big seems more achievable.
Looking at 5 of the top Minnesota kids from the 2006 NHL draft: All got there in a slightly different way-
Erik Johnson - HS, NTDP
Peter Mueller, HS, NTDP, WHL
Kyle Okposo, Shattuck, USHL
David Fischer, HS
Carl Sneep, HS (some ushl).
I do not see the need for Tier 1 below the highschool level. Some would argue that HS for extremely talented 8th and 9th graders would suffice as Tier 1. If kids want to play Tier 1 in HS, then they can go to the USHL, NTDP, Shattuck, WHL, etc. They would travel a lot as a Tier 1 HSer anyway, so choosing these other options is not that much different. Traveling the county in the winter for top competition(14 and under) seems to be a waste of money, but let people make the choice.
The summer AAA (Machine and Blades) teams that are formed seem to fill a big void for those who desire the Tier 1 experience. I would not prevent the people who desire the Tier 1 experence in the winter from doing it-its their time and money. Competition is good and it can only push the association in providing a better experience for their top players.
Minnesota's advantage is all the ex-players and knowledgeable hockey people who come back and contribute and positively influence the associations (you need other people in the associations to execute the strategies and plans). Try finding that depth of knowledge in CA, TX, MO, or GA.
Does a team based out of Minnesota, practicing out of Minnesota need Minnesota Hockey's endorsement in order to play TIER 1?
Do they need to be endorsed or sanctioned by USA hockey in order to compete nationally at TIER 1?
Would USA hockey sanction them w/out Minnesota Hockeys backing?
Why is there not a team right now based out of the metro area? They could probably get a ice contract at numerous places : St Thomas, SPA, MnMade, Breck, St Louis Park, Parade, and Richfield.
What is holding them up from having one?
I have read a few comments about "the kid from the smaller association" If Mn Hockey had a tier 1, would they be competitive with 4 teams? South, West, East, and North... if 70% of the players live in the twin cities, then we could expect 50 % of the best players. How many are willing to drive a great distance for tier 1? Perhaps the 1st tier 1 team would be based in the cities, that doesn't leave the small association or town relevant...does it? But maybe I am underestimating that.
I do like the comments offered by all, and Frederick61 did point out a few items. Including financial support... that maybe more difficult the more rural your team goes. Would Wisconsin hockey have more association teams without tier 1? Would Wisconsin hockey have more registered players without tier 1 ? Would Wisconsin hockey make a bigger deal about their youth and high school hockey tournament with out tier 1?
Minnesota hockey is in a class by itself and should be setup to feed the masses.. Don't stop tier 1 from happening on its own, but find ways to continue to increase the numbers of youth participating in hockey in Minnesota. The top 2 % will always find a way to the top. Creating a program to compete with Ann Arbor, or USHL is not what Mn Hockey should be focused on... something else will always seem like the next best thing. Increase the numbers from ground up and make the whole program more beneficial for the whole. Open up more avenues for all kids to play the game.
If it's about the kids let's make up a scenario. Johnny plays hockey. signs up for AAA winter team and plays for two years. Travels to new york, chicago, canada, all over, very successful, leading goal scorer. Dad has major heart attack, can't work anymore. Mom doesn't make enough (okay, or vice versa) to pay for AAA hockey. Johnny has to go back to association hockey. But that's so unfair, Johnny should get to play against kids who will "make him better", not hold him back, but who pays?
Mythical Kid in Pine City is a phenom at hockey. Everyone agrees that he should be on THE winter AAA team. It's based out of Edina, as it probably should be. How does he make those practices? Who pays for all of that gas? How does he keep up with his schoolwork? And yet, if these two mythical kids aren't on the team, is it really an elite team? If you don't have the best of the best, why bother? That's the basis for only one A team at the mega associations. Can't have it both ways though can we?
you lost with that whole rant, makes no sense at all. Who said AAA was elite hockey? It isn't. It doesn't have the best of the best. It's simply another avenue for development that just so happens to be offered all over the country. The need for AAA in the rest of the country doesn't exist here, but at the same time why is AAA hockey so popular in the spring? Why are there 22 94 birth year AAA spring teams?
The whole point about AAA and Minnesota is "Should it be an option or not?"
In the real world, Minnesota Hockey would be considered a Monopoly by holding the trump card as the governing body in the state and not allowing the growth of competition.
I believe that MNHOCK is thinking of the masses and is doing what is in the best interest of the whole by thwarting off the AAA supporters. At the same time, I guarantee that if it were an option, teams would easily fill and have no issues. And that less that 1% of the total hockey playing population would find their own way to make it work while you and the association players find your way to do what you want to do.
COEXISTENCE is very real because of the number of players playing hockey. Period. Nobody will suffer from any Tier 1 allowance. Do you put down your daughter friends and families because they dance at studio C instead of studio A, no, because who are you to care.
In your scenario, you are only pointing out the obvious...YOU KNOW NOTHING about true Tier 1 as it exists all over the country. You are using the often heard Minnesota terminology of "play against kids who will make him better". Who said this doesn't happen in association play?
Why do families move into the Edina school district? (if you say this doesn't happen for hockey reasons, you're clueless)
I'll go back to my earlier questions:
1. Why are there so many AAA spring teams? (because parents want little jonny to play more with better kids against better teams?)
2. Why do kids leave Minnesota to play juniors in high school? (more games, better competition?)
3. If there was AAA in Minnesota would kids play it? (yes)
4. Why does the elite league exist , why is it exciting and what's the purpose? (it's basically Midget Major hockey)
5. Why is it that Minnesotans think the Fargo Squirt tournament is so great? Because it's the closest thing to a AAA tournament, HELLO people
D-Mom not sure I follow you. Both of the scenerios you desribe involve personal family decisions. They have absolutly nothing to do with Tier 1 vs Association hockey. The point is both families would have either option available to them. Which one they choose is strictly a personal decision. I know there were kids that played on current Fire teams that drove over 1 hr to practices 3-4 days a week. If they felt it was worth the time then so be it. If little Johnny Pine City decides it is not, again so be it.
The point remains the same, the option was there for them if they wanted to take advantage of it.
As far as the team not being worth having because 2 of the best kids choose not to participate, well that is just dumb. There are plenty of kids that could fill said spots and the team would still be just fine.
I still go back to the same thing- why not try Tier 1 at some level and see how it works.
As far as the team not being worth having because 2 of the best kids choose not to participate, well that is just dumb. There are plenty of kids that could fill said spots and the team would still be just fine
my question is, why would you want to travel to New York to represent Minnesota if you are not really the best the state has to offer. That's not even addressing the kids in Roseau and Moorhead. If plenty of kids could fill the spots, than guess what? they could get competition right here in Minnesota, under the current system.
And if you aren't considering the mythical pine city kid, than you aren't building "opportunity for kids whose associations don't have an A team".
You're building opportunities for kids who don't make their own A teams due to "politics", or they are on their A teams, but no one recognizes them as "the best on that team".
I have witnessed some of the club teams from Wisconsin, I have some relatives over there. Frankly, we are definitely doing a better job than they are.
Ten years ago if you saw a kid with a AAA jersey on at an association hockey practice, they were probably the best kid on the ice. That is no longer true, because there are almost as many AAA teams in the metro area as there are A teams (especially when you combine the age groups). In the off-season you now have association hockey with the kids scrambled up. Isn't that what we would end up with in the winter?
My own family would love a move to AAA winter hockey (they love their off season teams and the buddies they have made on them) but what does that leave? Don't we have a duty to look ten years down the road? Our kids only have a small amount of time in youth hockey, but the people before us built the program we have for us, we owe it to the next generation of hockey players to make the right choice for them, whatever form that takes, it deserves to be well-thought out and debated.
I am sure the arguments were the same before they allowed private schools into the state hockey tournament. I don't really have knowledge of tournaments prior to that, so people with more experience can tell me, did it hurt or help the tournament and competition in Minnesota overall? Basically, Tier one hockey is the same. Look at history and use that to help make the decision.
For those of you that think AAA Winter hockey is the answer I feel are willing to throw the baby out with the bath water. Large association or small association the fact that it is community based is what makes it so great and why when you go ask the MN players that have excelled at the game will refer back to youth hockey experiences as their favorite.
So if everyone focused on their association hockey programs and made them a little better for the next group we will see sustained progress and will continue to distance ourselves from the rest of the country - not saying that are kids will become better players than a AAA player but their experiences and enjoyment will continue to become a larger point of envy to the rest of the country...I don't want my kids or the kids I coach to be so focused on whose team they will be on in five years - I want them to have a great time during their current season and playing for his community (in the winter) I believe is the best way to have fun.
Cutanddrive- From the information that I have heard, there is a very good chance that there will not be a Fire program next year. At least not one that is run the way the current teams are run. I think they will be watched a lot closer than they have in the past. Some of the loop holes that they have used in the past to their advantage may not exist anymore.
I think the WAHA meeting are in the not to distant future and there should be a more exact answer after that.
jancze5 wrote:
The whole point about AAA and Minnesota is "Should it be an option or not?"
In the real world, Minnesota Hockey would be considered a Monopoly by holding the trump card as the governing body in the state and not allowing the growth of competition.
Interesting point this monopoly. It is not a MN Hockey monopoly.
It is a USA Hockey monopoly granted by the US Congress.
AAA hockey in MN or any other affiliate fo USA Hockey is governed by the affiliate and USA Hockey. They are not in competition with, but part of.
MH Hockey have created policies based on the power granted it by USA Hockey. Included in that policy is how teams are formed.
MN Hockey allows certain teams to be formed without regard to residency, but very few. Some (in my opinion) are formed contrary to current policy (rightfully or not).
So the question becomes should MN hOckey change its policy to allow for some or limited 'AAA' teams?
If they say yes, then how will it be done?
Elliott- It's good to have someone like you willing to listen the rank and file. There have been lots of comments both Pro and Con regarding the issue of Tier 1 hockey in Minnesota. This seems like an endless debate if we make our opinion on emotion and self-interest. The people for Tier 1 hockey say that this is America and let me decide what is best for my situation while those against Tier 1 hockey in MN say MN hockey is great the way it has operated for years and that Tier 1 hockey will hurt hockey in Minnesota. I would hope we could all agree that we don't like anyone or any government body unnecessarily interfering with our personal decisions and that nobody involved in hockey would want to hurt the sport. How, then. does Minnesota hockey resolve this dispute? A good place to start is your citation to the United States Congress and the authority it granted to USA Hockey Inc. in the Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act. Whether people want to call USA Hockey, Inc a monoply or not it is the sole organization charged by the U.S. government to control amateur hockey in the U.S. To find out the rules and policies of U.S. hockey, Inc. we need to simply go to the USA Hockey Annual Guide 2007-08 which is available on the USA web site. This 300 plus page volume is the framework for amateur Hockey in the U.S.A.. I would think that this document was well thought out and has the best interests of U.S. hockey players and teams in mind. In the section entitled Programs & Philophies A. YOUTH HOCKEY, "USA hockey has created 4 distinct catagories within its structure to help meet the needs of the youth player: 1) Skill Development, 2) Recreational, 3)Competitive, and 4) Select." Team objectives for the Competitive category include local, league, state and national championships and the Select level prepares the player to play for the U.S. in international competition. Whether it is called Tier 1 hockey or Competitive or select hockey, USA Hockey Inc. does advocate for Hockey at certain levels for Minnesota youth to be played outside the boundaries of Minnesota. USA Hockey, Inc., further sponsors a National Tournament at the Tier 1 level for Youth age 12 and above. Interestingly, although Minnesota is a U.S.A. hockey district and therefore a Minnesota Team would get an automatic bid to the national tournament, MN Hockey refuses to allow a team to go. There is however one exception in Minnesota and that is Minnesota Hockey does allow Tier 1 hockey for Shattoch St. Mary's. Shattoch for some reason is allowed to play Tier 1 hockey and actually gets to go to the National Tournament automatically. I guess if one can afford the $30,000.00 plus per year and to send your child away you get the right to play Tier 1 hockey in Minnesota. U.S..A. Hockey Inc. grants the right to allow one affiliate member per State. In Minnesota the sole affiliate is Minnesota Hockey. Minnesota Hockey to date has disallowed Tier 1 hockey with just one exception-that being Shattoch. To become an Affiliate Member, the Affiliate must agree to abide by the rules of U.S.A. Hockey, Inc.. The real question is whether or not Minnesota Hockey should follow the rules set out by U.S.A. Hockey or should they be able to create a different structure. Under the U.S.A. rules it seems like Tier 1 Hockey is designed to co-exit with the other levels of hockey currently in place in Minnesota. It seems like some organizations like some of the private schools actively recruit players to compete at a higher level. It would be interesting to see how many great private school hockey teams would exist if Tier 1 was an option. The number of kids that would play Tier 1 hockey would be statistically insignificant as to cause any detriment to their local associations. Maybe, an opportunity to complete at a National level might even spawn more passion among the sport. Elliott, I too grew up playing at the local association and the local public high school and even had the pleasure of playing against the great Bemidji teams. We all know kids today have a lot more opportunity than we did in terms of hockey training. The best thing back then in the summer was the Bemidji Hockey Camp. Times have certainly changed (maybe for the good or maybe for the bad) but it seems like Minnesota Hockey should not have the right to deny a child their right to choose a program outlined by U.S.A. Hockey. Is this issue coming up for a vote in the near future?
To the many others: I've been reading these posts for the past year and cannot for the life of me understand how these seemingly otherwise intelligent people can make these value judgements about Tier One Hockey and it's parents, and have never been a part of the Tier one experience. Doesn't it seem interesting that many of the people that support tier one hockey, are people who have played both Tier One AND Association? Hmmmm...
You can't make a valid argument worth listening to if you don't have the experience and perspective of both sides.
For another view go to the USA Hockey web site, look for the Annual Congress 2006-07 and read the Affiliate Presidents meeting minutes, starting on page 8, 3 affiliate Presidents talk about non-resident and non-USA players and about the recruiting of the players from their state. The report is 13 pages long and is very interesting to read.
Also for those that have not been the Mn Hockey meetings, in the past, the President of USA Hockey Ron DeGregorio has attended. On more than one occasion the statement has been made by him that if the other Affiliates with in USA Hockey had it to do again they would follow the community based model of Mn Hockey.
The question for those in favor of Tier I, have you developed your proposal, formed a model and business plan and attended and presented your proposal to Mn Hockey at either the Fall, Winter, Spring or summer meetings in the past 3 years?
The next question is Will this be an all Minnesota team or will it be allowed to have out of state or out of country players provided all registration rules of USA Hockey are followed? Mn Hockey can set stricter qualifications.
If Tier I would be set up in Minnesota and your player does not make the team will you push for more teams until your player finally makes one, or go back and play for your association?
Mr Elliott can bring all of this to a Mn Hockey meeting and give to the board members, as he has in the past. The next question I would ask is that if all these people want this ,Where are they?
Greybeard58- It's nice to see someone else actually looking at the rules set forth by U.S.A. Hockey,Inc. when debating this issue. First, although minutes from the Affiliate Presidents meeting are interesting (which I would agree with by the way), U.S.A. to my knowledge has not adopted them yet as a U.S.A. Hockey rule. At the youth level, U.S.A. Hockey still has the 80/20 rule. How would Shattuck fair under the Affiliate Presidents view? If MN Hockey allowed Tier 1, ,logic seems to follow that MN kids would stay in MN to play hockey at a more affordable price than moving away or paying the Shattuck price tag.
Secondly, regarding the remarks by the U.S.A. Hockey President at the MN Hockey meetings, actually, U.S.A. Hockey Inc. does provide for a community based model at the first 3 levels of U.S.A. Hockey's model for youth hockey. I refer you to pages 15-16 of the U.S.A. Hockey 2007-08 Annual Guide. I assume these rules and regulations were debated thoroughly by all the great hockey minds at U.S.A. Hockey, which was then voted on and compiled into our current rules contained in the 2007-08 Annual Guide.
Thirdly, regarding your question of developing a proposal or forming a model of my own, I have not. I would simply suggest that we use the model set forth by U.S.A. Hockey since they are our governing body.
Fourth, in terms of player quotas, the current standards of the 80/20 rule set forth by U.S.A. Hockey, Inc. would apply. It must be working okay for Shattuck, so why would MN need to change the U.S.A. Hockey Inc. standartd?
Fifth, under the U.S.A. Hockey model, it only seems to make logical sense that if a kid wasn't chosen for the Tier 1 team that he/she could then play at a different level. This is really no different then what we have now if the kid doesn't make the A or B team. The real debate should be over how many Tier 1 teams MN Hockey should have. We currently have one (Shattuck) and I would suggest adding one more at all levels to begin with and see how it goes. I'm sure Shattuck could use some local competition.
Finally, you ask if "all these people want this, where are they?" The point is, most people don't want to play Tier 1 and so they are in the minority. Again, if you look at the U.S.A. Hockey model on page 16, Tier 1 Hockey by its very nature is designed for just a few. Do the few kids that are affected, have the right to choose or not is the real question.
To the guys spending their time trying to figure out who's who on this forum I can assure you that this topic has been my first post since I haven't found it particularly useful to give my opinions regarding who the best mite player, squirt player etc. is; or what team will beat who; or personally attack some individual or some organization. Those of you that have the time for these things should spend the time reading the U.S.A. Rules and Regulations and try to make Hockey better for all kids. This is AMERICA!
I still have the same questions that ALL of you aren't answering...
1. Why are there so many AAA spring teams? (because parents want little jonny to play more with better kids against better teams?)
2. Why do kids leave Minnesota to play juniors in high school? (more games, better competition?)
3. If there was AAA in Minnesota would kids play it? (yes, they do in masses all spring and summer, the winter would follow suit)
4. Why does the elite league exist , why is it exciting and what's the purpose? (it's basically Midget Major AAA hockey, it has the majority of the best high school kids from each area, together. Go to an elite league game this summer/fall)
5. Why is it that Minnesotans think the Fargo Squirt tournament is so great? (Because it's the closest thing to a AAA tournament any of them have experienced, HELLO people)
Again, I'll state this...I'm not for AAA hockey in Minnesota. With 6 straight years of AAA experience, from the East Coast, I believe that Minnesota has a special market here for their players. At the same time I'm not against it because I know that it has a place.
and to echo someone else...You can't make a valid argument worth listening to if you don't have the experience and perspective of both sides.