. Why are there so many AAA spring teams? (because parents want little jonny to play more with better kids against better teams?) Because the parents have the money and believe it helps the player develop. I would hope the players are also involved in other summer sports also.
2. Why do kids leave Minnesota to play juniors in high school? (more games, better competition?) Some feel it is their best chance, or a dislike of the high school coach or program, more games and a tougher life style
If there was AAA in Minnesota would kids play it? (yes, they do in masses all spring and summer, the winter would follow suit) If approved I doubt there would be that many teams.
. Why does the elite league exist , why is it exciting and what's the purpose? (it's basically Midget Major AAA hockey, it has the majority of the best high school kids from each area, together. Go to an elite league game this summer/fall) The elite league was started to give High school players another alternative than leaving for juniors and has worked well.
5. Why is it that Minnesotans think the Fargo Squirt tournament is so great? In reality it is a really large tournament and the Fargo folks do a really good job in putting it on.
To America, The comment made about the Affiliates by the USA Hockey President; to clarify was that if some Affiliates had to start over they would follow the example of Mn Hockey with community based teams and no Tier I AAA hockey. USA Hockey probably will not change the registration requirements, but the affiliates can and some will, Ill. for one and now maybe Wisc. or strongly enforce what is in place right now.
I might be wrong but until a group approaches Mn Hockey with a proposal, back round and what else might be needed to convince the Mn Hockey Board to approve, the only place Tier I will be discussed will be on line. I also believe that if people truly want this they will work hard to get it and follow all procedures, if it is expected to be handed out in any other fashion, I doubt it will happen, nor should it.
My opinion (for what it is) is that Mn Hockey does not need Tier I during the winter. I have had the privilege of witnessing first hand how some parents and coaches behaved during the Tier I national tournaments held in Mn. In all the years(over 30) I have either watched or been involved in youth hockey I have yet to witness anything that has been as ugly. I have also had the chance to meet other Tier I teams and was not to impressed with their organizational processes.
Tier 1 Hockey in Minnesota, is it coming or already here?
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
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frederick61
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:54 pm
1. In order for a person to play poker, he has to “ante up”. For an “organization” to operate a Tier 1 AAA team, they have to operate a minimum of three teams and show facilities and solvency at the start of the season. This is more then just selecting players and buying ice.
2. Tier 1 hockey is a means for a state with few arenas and few people interested in their sons/daughters playing hockey to participate by widening the region from which a organization can draw players to form a team. The problem that I think USA hockey has to deal with is that once Tier 1 is introduced, the communities have little interest in spending millions of dollars to build and maintain arena’s for a select few. Hockey associations no longer have the edge in developing programs because opponents of hockey (they exist) point to Tier 1 as the answer to avoid spending money.
3. The rules also allow for Tier 1 hockey teams less then AAA, but you never hear about them. Why?
4. The reason for any AAA team existing in this state has to be driven by meeting criteria for facilities-this is more then just buying ice. Minnesota Made is the only non-community built rink that I know of in the Twin City area. Shaddock owns its own sheet also. The rest are community owned and operated.
5. A number of Minnesota associations are already suffering because of a lack of interest in the sport. Introducing Tier 1 would only hurt these association’s ability to survive and maintain the youth hockey base so important to the state (provides future players, coaches and fans).
6. Wisconsin has six regions and six AAA organizations. Region 1 has no AAA team, Region 2 has three, Central Wisconsin, Nothern Wisconsin Thrashers, and the Wisconsin Flyers, Region 4 has the Madison Capitals, Region 5 has the Milwaukee Junior Admirals, and Region 6 has the Fire. Since each organization must have a minimum of three teams, Wisconsin then has 18 AAA teams.
The Capitals and Junior Admirals used to play in local Peewee A tournaments when they had the age advantage over the Minnesota kids. They were tough teams, but they still struggled to win the tourneys. Some years they would have a great team, the following year a weak team. Note the comments on the Colorado AAA team that didn’t fair so well in their December swing through Minnesota-we are down this year. Last year a Florida team came through and they were down last year.
The Wisconsin Fire (U12) won the Wisconsin Tier 1 tourney in early March to go to nationals. They had to beat two teams to get there. I will bet you there was more fan interest in the D2 finals I attended, then in any of the three Tier 1 tourneys played in Wisconsin.
But the real question is how many Wisconsin Tier 2 associations have a division 1 (needed to equate to Peewee A) rating in these regions. Region 1 has one-Superior and it plays D11 hockey in Minnesota (that creates interest), Region 2 has two-Marathon County and Portage, Region 3 has two, Appleton and Green Bay, Region 4 has six, Beliot, McFarland, Madison Patriots and West Madison Polar Caps, Sun Prairie and Southwest, Region 5 has three, Fond du Lac, Milwaukee Winter, and Waukesha County and Region 6 has two, Hudson and it plays D8 hockey in Minnesota and Eau Claire. These 15 teams played for the Peewee 1A title with Eau Claire wining. If your son or daughter had played on the Eau Claire team, they would have skated 30 hours home ice (10 games) and played in 2 tourneys. When communities cap their interest in the sport, they do not invest in facilities to expand the sport. There were 15 Minnesota D8 teams competing for the D8 title to go to regions.
7. Because of the community interest in funding facilities and maintaining them and their respect organizations, all the Minnesota Hockey associations are considered the equivalent of Tier 2, Division 1. This allows for added emphasis at the B1 and B2 levels in the state and expands opportunities for kids to compete and allows the individual associations and teams to chose how they compete based on their own assessment.
If this didn’t happen, then associations would have to submit documentation to establish that they were Division 1 and if they failed to show compliance, could be designated Division 2, 3 or 4 and then could only compete with other Division 2, 3 or 4 teams. They would have no choice based on talent.
2. Tier 1 hockey is a means for a state with few arenas and few people interested in their sons/daughters playing hockey to participate by widening the region from which a organization can draw players to form a team. The problem that I think USA hockey has to deal with is that once Tier 1 is introduced, the communities have little interest in spending millions of dollars to build and maintain arena’s for a select few. Hockey associations no longer have the edge in developing programs because opponents of hockey (they exist) point to Tier 1 as the answer to avoid spending money.
3. The rules also allow for Tier 1 hockey teams less then AAA, but you never hear about them. Why?
4. The reason for any AAA team existing in this state has to be driven by meeting criteria for facilities-this is more then just buying ice. Minnesota Made is the only non-community built rink that I know of in the Twin City area. Shaddock owns its own sheet also. The rest are community owned and operated.
5. A number of Minnesota associations are already suffering because of a lack of interest in the sport. Introducing Tier 1 would only hurt these association’s ability to survive and maintain the youth hockey base so important to the state (provides future players, coaches and fans).
6. Wisconsin has six regions and six AAA organizations. Region 1 has no AAA team, Region 2 has three, Central Wisconsin, Nothern Wisconsin Thrashers, and the Wisconsin Flyers, Region 4 has the Madison Capitals, Region 5 has the Milwaukee Junior Admirals, and Region 6 has the Fire. Since each organization must have a minimum of three teams, Wisconsin then has 18 AAA teams.
The Capitals and Junior Admirals used to play in local Peewee A tournaments when they had the age advantage over the Minnesota kids. They were tough teams, but they still struggled to win the tourneys. Some years they would have a great team, the following year a weak team. Note the comments on the Colorado AAA team that didn’t fair so well in their December swing through Minnesota-we are down this year. Last year a Florida team came through and they were down last year.
The Wisconsin Fire (U12) won the Wisconsin Tier 1 tourney in early March to go to nationals. They had to beat two teams to get there. I will bet you there was more fan interest in the D2 finals I attended, then in any of the three Tier 1 tourneys played in Wisconsin.
But the real question is how many Wisconsin Tier 2 associations have a division 1 (needed to equate to Peewee A) rating in these regions. Region 1 has one-Superior and it plays D11 hockey in Minnesota (that creates interest), Region 2 has two-Marathon County and Portage, Region 3 has two, Appleton and Green Bay, Region 4 has six, Beliot, McFarland, Madison Patriots and West Madison Polar Caps, Sun Prairie and Southwest, Region 5 has three, Fond du Lac, Milwaukee Winter, and Waukesha County and Region 6 has two, Hudson and it plays D8 hockey in Minnesota and Eau Claire. These 15 teams played for the Peewee 1A title with Eau Claire wining. If your son or daughter had played on the Eau Claire team, they would have skated 30 hours home ice (10 games) and played in 2 tourneys. When communities cap their interest in the sport, they do not invest in facilities to expand the sport. There were 15 Minnesota D8 teams competing for the D8 title to go to regions.
7. Because of the community interest in funding facilities and maintaining them and their respect organizations, all the Minnesota Hockey associations are considered the equivalent of Tier 2, Division 1. This allows for added emphasis at the B1 and B2 levels in the state and expands opportunities for kids to compete and allows the individual associations and teams to chose how they compete based on their own assessment.
If this didn’t happen, then associations would have to submit documentation to establish that they were Division 1 and if they failed to show compliance, could be designated Division 2, 3 or 4 and then could only compete with other Division 2, 3 or 4 teams. They would have no choice based on talent.
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cutanddrive
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:43 am
Re: same questions
and to echo someone else...You can't make a valid argument worth listening to if you don't have the experience and perspective of both sides.[/quote]
Speaking from Outstate AAA, Mn for over 5 years perspective.
Which is it?
* You can take the skater out of the community, but you can’t take the community out of the skater?
* You can take the community out of the skater, but you can’t take the skater out of the community?
* You can go wherever you want because your skater is better than everyone else.
Go with Tier 1 the “trickle up” affect will mess with the great success of the Minnesota State HS tournament. You think HS/A level coaches are a little frustrated with the private school kids that develop within the association only to leave? How about the kid who comes back to their community for their HS hockey, even though the association program was not “worthy?”
Obviously coaches want to win, but are you willing to bank on that? Give me a hard working, “home grown” multi-sport athlete with a great attitude any day. If you think your superstar will be able to do it all on his own – maybe you should look at one of the individual sports like, oh I don’t know, maybe FIGURE SKATING.
Final question - why do you think districts make it so difficult to waiver out of your own association?
Association youth hockey + summer AAA (for those who choose that) = a great formula. (And while I’m at it, your HS coaches summer programs as well.)
Usually there is only one sandbox at the playground.
Speaking from Outstate AAA, Mn for over 5 years perspective.
Which is it?
* You can take the skater out of the community, but you can’t take the community out of the skater?
* You can take the community out of the skater, but you can’t take the skater out of the community?
* You can go wherever you want because your skater is better than everyone else.
Go with Tier 1 the “trickle up” affect will mess with the great success of the Minnesota State HS tournament. You think HS/A level coaches are a little frustrated with the private school kids that develop within the association only to leave? How about the kid who comes back to their community for their HS hockey, even though the association program was not “worthy?”
Obviously coaches want to win, but are you willing to bank on that? Give me a hard working, “home grown” multi-sport athlete with a great attitude any day. If you think your superstar will be able to do it all on his own – maybe you should look at one of the individual sports like, oh I don’t know, maybe FIGURE SKATING.
Final question - why do you think districts make it so difficult to waiver out of your own association?
Association youth hockey + summer AAA (for those who choose that) = a great formula. (And while I’m at it, your HS coaches summer programs as well.)
Usually there is only one sandbox at the playground.
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mnticketbroker
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:12 pm
switch from school year to birth year
Taxi43 ( your not bernie are u?) Minnesota Hockey does not use a school grade based program. They use July 1, and allow associations to have a player with a July /August b-day to play with their grade. Just wanted to clarify. Not all associations allow that child with a August/July to play with their grade and not all kids born before July 1 can play with their grade either.
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hockeyparent11
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:38 am
It is not nearly as complicated as F61 makes it out to be. If the age criteria is met, Minnesota Hockey's competition committee can certify any team to compete in Nationals, at any level.
Also, F61 has some facts wrong:
Tier 1 is the rule, not the exception, across the USA. It is not just for places with low interest. Michigan has the same hockey hysteria that Minnestoa has and they also have the best Tier 1 hockey in the USA.
We hear about AA teams all the time. Colorado brought a AA squirt team to the Hopkins tournament this year.
The Colorado Thunderbirds peewee team was very good this year. They beat the eventual State Champions (Edina) in a refereed scrimmage and lost a close one to Wayzata inthe tournament. The only reason they did not advance to the semis of the Edina tournament is that EP and Fire tied. If either team had won that game, Colorado would have advanced.
Buying your ice, as opposed to owning the rink, is the standard way that Tier 1 teams operate. This is true of all Wisconsin teams. For example, Somerset owns the Fire's home rink (they also practice around the Twin Cities). Tier 1 teams have home rinks, but they usually do not own the rink.
Introducing Tier 1 should increase interest for smaller associations. It will pull the best players from the megas and give the others a better chance to win.
[/b]
Also, F61 has some facts wrong:
Tier 1 is the rule, not the exception, across the USA. It is not just for places with low interest. Michigan has the same hockey hysteria that Minnestoa has and they also have the best Tier 1 hockey in the USA.
We hear about AA teams all the time. Colorado brought a AA squirt team to the Hopkins tournament this year.
The Colorado Thunderbirds peewee team was very good this year. They beat the eventual State Champions (Edina) in a refereed scrimmage and lost a close one to Wayzata inthe tournament. The only reason they did not advance to the semis of the Edina tournament is that EP and Fire tied. If either team had won that game, Colorado would have advanced.
Buying your ice, as opposed to owning the rink, is the standard way that Tier 1 teams operate. This is true of all Wisconsin teams. For example, Somerset owns the Fire's home rink (they also practice around the Twin Cities). Tier 1 teams have home rinks, but they usually do not own the rink.
Introducing Tier 1 should increase interest for smaller associations. It will pull the best players from the megas and give the others a better chance to win.
[/b]
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cutanddrive
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:43 am
Say you get your Tier 1, now your hockey season extends (obviously 
) so - What happens to your spring sport? Gone!
Tier 1 hockey is single sport mentality. What does over 99% of the pro athletes (and doctors) say - especially, when the player hasn't even gone through puberty - Do Not Specialize in one Sport at the Youth Level!
) so - What happens to your spring sport? Gone! Tier 1 hockey is single sport mentality. What does over 99% of the pro athletes (and doctors) say - especially, when the player hasn't even gone through puberty - Do Not Specialize in one Sport at the Youth Level!
I would bet that a kid that is good enough to make a teir one team already plays AAA in the summer and might be given more time in the summer to play other sports if teir one was available in the winter. Some of these kids consider the winter association hockey the off season and wish baseball was offered indoors.
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Hobey Faker
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 2:13 pm
Fred61
The Wisconsin Fire (U12) won the Wisconsin Tier 1 tourney in early March to go to nationals. They had to beat two teams to get there. I will bet you there was more fan interest in the D2 finals I attended, then in any of the three Tier 1 tourneys played in Wisconsin.
correction; this advanced them to the Central District playoffs in Chicago
they beat St.louis and the Mission to advance to Nationals.
the final game was very close with the fire winning 6-5 in ot.
the arena was packed!
The Wisconsin Fire (U12) won the Wisconsin Tier 1 tourney in early March to go to nationals. They had to beat two teams to get there. I will bet you there was more fan interest in the D2 finals I attended, then in any of the three Tier 1 tourneys played in Wisconsin.
correction; this advanced them to the Central District playoffs in Chicago
they beat St.louis and the Mission to advance to Nationals.
the final game was very close with the fire winning 6-5 in ot.
the arena was packed!
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frederick61
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:54 pm
My estimate is over 2,000 attended the D2 finals. How many were at the Wisconsin tourney and the Chicago tourney?Hobey Faker wrote:Fred61
The Wisconsin Fire (U12) won the Wisconsin Tier 1 tourney in early March to go to nationals. They had to beat two teams to get there. I will bet you there was more fan interest in the D2 finals I attended, then in any of the three Tier 1 tourneys played in Wisconsin.
correction; this advanced them to the Central District playoffs in Chicago
they beat St.louis and the Mission to advance to Nationals.
the final game was very close with the fire winning 6-5 in ot.
the arena was packed!
These 15 teams played for the Peewee 1A title with Eau Claire wining.
and Minnesota is guilty of giving out trophies for participation? Eau Claire played two Minnesota teams this winter according to MNhockeyrankings.com; they lost to Hermantown ( 4-1) and lost to Forest Lake (5-1), that would put Eau Claire ranked far below most Minnesota Tier II teams.
and Minnesota is guilty of giving out trophies for participation? Eau Claire played two Minnesota teams this winter according to MNhockeyrankings.com; they lost to Hermantown ( 4-1) and lost to Forest Lake (5-1), that would put Eau Claire ranked far below most Minnesota Tier II teams.
To naswer the question of timiing of a vote...
No, it will not happen anytime soon.
Perhaps at the Fall meeting, no later than the winter (January 09) meeting is my hope, but that is no guarantee as the leader expressly stated this will be a marathon not a sprint, we will take our time.
I hope the recent survey will give all of us the adrenlin shot we need to move faster. But I make no promises.
No, it will not happen anytime soon.
Perhaps at the Fall meeting, no later than the winter (January 09) meeting is my hope, but that is no guarantee as the leader expressly stated this will be a marathon not a sprint, we will take our time.
I hope the recent survey will give all of us the adrenlin shot we need to move faster. But I make no promises.
Elliott- Thanks for the reply on the timing. Please keep in mind that the minority members of kids that would play Tier 1 and their positions, as in any society, are not usually won in the poll of popular opinion but rather on a rule of law or policy already in existence set up for the protection of all individuals. If MN Hockey applies the current rules set forth by the Act of the U.S. Congress (Ted Stevens Act) sec 220524 entitled "General duties of national governing bodies" For the sport that it governs, a national governing body shall . . . (5) allow an amateur athlete to compete in any international amateur athletic competition conducted by any amatuer sports organization or person . . . ." and applies the rules set forth by U.S.A. Hockey Inc., MN Hockey based soley on the Rules in existence cannot deny players the right to play Tier 1 Hockey in the state of Minnesota. I believe one of the survey questions should have been whether or not MN Hockey should abide by the rules and regulations set forth by the U.S. Congress and U.S.A. Hockey Inc. or should MN Hockey be allowed to conduct hockey operations based on public opinion. If looked at in this light, it does not seem like this issue should take very long to decide. Can you explain the process of the inner workings of MN Hockey and how a change is made. How is the proposal made, who makes them, is their a notice sent out and how is the vote made and a decision finalized? Is it similar to getting a bill passed in our form of government? I hope that you will march for the rights of the minority position even if you don't personally agree with the policy but rather look at the current rules already in place with U.S.A. Hockey Inc.. This is America!
Whatever we do we do it with guidance and approval from USA Hockey.AMERICAN wrote:Elliott- Thanks for the reply on the timing. Please keep in mind that the minority members of kids that would play Tier 1 and their positions, as in any society, are not usually won in the poll of popular opinion but rather on a rule of law or policy already in existence set up for the protection of all individuals. If MN Hockey applies the current rules set forth by the Act of the U.S. Congress (Ted Stevens Act) sec 220524 entitled "General duties of national governing bodies" For the sport that it governs, a national governing body shall . . . (5) allow an amateur athlete to compete in any international amateur athletic competition conducted by any amatuer sports organization or person . . . ." and applies the rules set forth by U.S.A. Hockey Inc., MN Hockey based soley on the Rules in existence cannot deny players the right to play Tier 1 Hockey in the state of Minnesota. I believe one of the survey questions should have been whether or not MN Hockey should abide by the rules and regulations set forth by the U.S. Congress and U.S.A. Hockey Inc. or should MN Hockey be allowed to conduct hockey operations based on public opinion. If looked at in this light, it does not seem like this issue should take very long to decide. Can you explain the process of the inner workings of MN Hockey and how a change is made. How is the proposal made, who makes them, is their a notice sent out and how is the vote made and a decision finalized? Is it similar to getting a bill passed in our form of government? I hope that you will march for the rights of the minority position even if you don't personally agree with the policy but rather look at the current rules already in place with U.S.A. Hockey Inc.. This is America!
I conversed with USA Hockey president Rod D. last winter abut his very matter. While not committing in either direction he was somewhat surprised but thought it a very suitable discussion. Especially coming from a person representing kids in a very non-tier I type area.
I have no personal concern about AAA other than the following:
1- What will the real effects be and how to quantify them on the programs that currently exist?
2- do we let the free market take charge and determine # of teams, etc...
3- Do we establish geographical areas and assign programs within those areas to those that meet our pre-set specs?
4- How do we monitor it? Via current DD approach? Separate committee? something else?
5- How do we make it available to those that wish to choose it but have barriers to being involved (if we can)?
Maybe not all inclusive but a start.
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myhockeyman
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:37 pm
To answer the critic's question up front, I have experienced both MN hockey and the USA Hockey Tier 1/2 system. I grew in the state, splitting time between a "B" only community and one of the better hockey towns in the state. My son has played against the Toronto Marlies, the Chicago Mission and the Fire, but has never played a game in the state of MN (we played the Fire in WI).
MN is the #1 producer of US hockey talent because of its system, not despite it. Mess with the system and you'll mess with the success. Here's a link to the column I wrote and some of the math I compiled last summer - http://myhockeyrankings.com/blog.php?b=30.
A couple comments:
- MN has the best of both worlds, community based hockey and summer AAA for those who want it too
- The current system, where you have an outlet for the few exceptions at the youth level (Fire) is fine. Some families really need this, but "sanction" more of these and you'll start seeing the beginning of the end. The private HS thing is now part of the tradition and again is probably a "best of both worlds" type thing.
- Tier 1 hockey at the bantam level runs $10-$20k per year when all expenses are taken into account (almost half of that being travel)
- I don't know what MN teams pay for ice, but $250 - $400/hr is common outside the state. I'm pretty sure most MN teams aren't currently paying that.
- Ice rinks as a community center and community asset, I wish someone outside the state of MN understood this concept...
- Michigan Tier 1 hockey produces more NHLers per player than MN hockey, but MN produces more NHLers per youth player and has almost twice as many kids playing per youth in the state. In other words, MN has the best system, but any kids odds of making it big are better playing Michigan Tier 1. Are you interested in the best system or what you perceive is best for your kid?
- Almost no one discusses it, but I believe one of the great parts of the MN system is that you don't play birth year hockey and that the kids who are likely to go somewhere get to play up every other year. Playing up every year usually doesn't work out (I've seen it), but playing up every other year gives those kids perspective that you don't get in birth year Tier 1 hockey.
- Tier 1 requires "professional" coaches. With it comes pay like you haven't seen. Some Tier 1 teams/programs still have dad coaches (who are usually still paid handsomely), but this brings with it lots of problems.
- Michigan Tier 1 numbers are a little misleading because 25-50% of the kids at the older levels are from outside the state to begin with. My state sends kids to Chicago / Detroit every year. Billeting at age 14 is not the answer.
- putting all the best kids in the state on 4 teams means you have 20/24 first liners at the top level of hockey in the state. Leave them in their 100 "A" level youth programs and you have 500/550 first liners with affordable hockey. Develop the masses and more will filter to the top in the end.
- in the end, multi-sport kids are better athletes and more likely to excel. Promote it, don't squash it.
- go to Buffalo on April 6th and watch the USA Hockey National Championship game at the Midget AAA/Tier 1 level and compare it to a MN HS Tournament game. The quality of the hockey might be a little better (in depth) when Shattuck faces off against Belle Tire in the championship game (my prediction), but there is no comparison in the atmosphere.
- if I lived in Pine City, I'd likely feel differently that I do, or I'd have my kid practice his genuflecting and get him lined up for Hill-Murray
- has anyone studied the potential impact a change could have on home prices in the metro area? I say this with tongue in check, but with some seriousness as well.
Each system clearly has its pros and cons. As someone who loves the sport of hockey, I want to see the best system in the country continue.
MN is the #1 producer of US hockey talent because of its system, not despite it. Mess with the system and you'll mess with the success. Here's a link to the column I wrote and some of the math I compiled last summer - http://myhockeyrankings.com/blog.php?b=30.
A couple comments:
- MN has the best of both worlds, community based hockey and summer AAA for those who want it too
- The current system, where you have an outlet for the few exceptions at the youth level (Fire) is fine. Some families really need this, but "sanction" more of these and you'll start seeing the beginning of the end. The private HS thing is now part of the tradition and again is probably a "best of both worlds" type thing.
- Tier 1 hockey at the bantam level runs $10-$20k per year when all expenses are taken into account (almost half of that being travel)
- I don't know what MN teams pay for ice, but $250 - $400/hr is common outside the state. I'm pretty sure most MN teams aren't currently paying that.
- Ice rinks as a community center and community asset, I wish someone outside the state of MN understood this concept...
- Michigan Tier 1 hockey produces more NHLers per player than MN hockey, but MN produces more NHLers per youth player and has almost twice as many kids playing per youth in the state. In other words, MN has the best system, but any kids odds of making it big are better playing Michigan Tier 1. Are you interested in the best system or what you perceive is best for your kid?
- Almost no one discusses it, but I believe one of the great parts of the MN system is that you don't play birth year hockey and that the kids who are likely to go somewhere get to play up every other year. Playing up every year usually doesn't work out (I've seen it), but playing up every other year gives those kids perspective that you don't get in birth year Tier 1 hockey.
- Tier 1 requires "professional" coaches. With it comes pay like you haven't seen. Some Tier 1 teams/programs still have dad coaches (who are usually still paid handsomely), but this brings with it lots of problems.
- Michigan Tier 1 numbers are a little misleading because 25-50% of the kids at the older levels are from outside the state to begin with. My state sends kids to Chicago / Detroit every year. Billeting at age 14 is not the answer.
- putting all the best kids in the state on 4 teams means you have 20/24 first liners at the top level of hockey in the state. Leave them in their 100 "A" level youth programs and you have 500/550 first liners with affordable hockey. Develop the masses and more will filter to the top in the end.
- in the end, multi-sport kids are better athletes and more likely to excel. Promote it, don't squash it.
- go to Buffalo on April 6th and watch the USA Hockey National Championship game at the Midget AAA/Tier 1 level and compare it to a MN HS Tournament game. The quality of the hockey might be a little better (in depth) when Shattuck faces off against Belle Tire in the championship game (my prediction), but there is no comparison in the atmosphere.
- if I lived in Pine City, I'd likely feel differently that I do, or I'd have my kid practice his genuflecting and get him lined up for Hill-Murray
- has anyone studied the potential impact a change could have on home prices in the metro area? I say this with tongue in check, but with some seriousness as well.
Each system clearly has its pros and cons. As someone who loves the sport of hockey, I want to see the best system in the country continue.
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itsmorefun
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:58 pm
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myhockeyman
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:37 pm
That sounds like East Coast AAA hockey to me. All year long. Mass has more than 30 AAA programs during the winter season, many can't compete with the Pine City B teams, yet still call themselves AAA.itsmorefun wrote:Just for the record...Tier 1 hockey around the country is NOT the same as summer AAA hockey in MN...
AAA summer hockey is completely watered down and anyone who wants to play, pretty much can...
By the way, there development track record has tanked in recent years as AAA programs have proliferated. They were equal to MN when town hockey (which they still have) ruled.
The other great thing about summer AAA is that it gives kids the option of not lacing up the skates and playing Lax, Baseball, Soccer or hanging with the family at the lake, hitting the BWCA or doing whatever they can afford.
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cutanddrive
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:43 am
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cutanddrive
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:43 am
There are only a couple real AAA teams (blades and machine and some others may be alright).
After reading this thread, I am convinced that we should keep it the way it is. It is the best of both worlds, association in the winter, AAA for those select few who can compete with the best, and watered down AAA or summer sports for the rest of us.
That being said, I still think we should allow someone with the resources to support a Tier 1 team to make the case to Minnesota Hockey and let the chips fall where they may.
After reading this thread, I am convinced that we should keep it the way it is. It is the best of both worlds, association in the winter, AAA for those select few who can compete with the best, and watered down AAA or summer sports for the rest of us.
That being said, I still think we should allow someone with the resources to support a Tier 1 team to make the case to Minnesota Hockey and let the chips fall where they may.
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Lowstickside
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:38 pm
The "best of both worlds" creates the problem. Once the "serious" player from the small association goes AAA in the summer, he/she has a hard time going back. By small, I mean the associaton who has a below average "A" team in a weak district. The association who has 3 "A" players on the "A" team and the rest "B", and then throw in a few "C" to round off the brutality. This player spends the spring and fall playing with and against other players like them, then has to return to the "asociation", where players miss practice for birthday parties at the mall and come to games with dull skates! Bring on AAA in the winter for those who need an alternative. The metro could easily have 3-4 AAA teams.sorno82 wrote: After reading this thread, I am convinced that we should keep it the way it is. It is the best of both worlds, association in the winter, AAA for those select few who can compete with the best, and watered down AAA or summer sports for the rest of us.
That being said, I still think we should allow someone with the resources to support a Tier 1 team to make the case to Minnesota Hockey and let the chips fall where they may.
Manys threads and conversations center around the "top" teams; tournaments, regions, state, best players ... This is fine. What about the kids who love hockey but are forced to play in the small and getting smaller associations? In the metro, you sit back and play in an entirely different sub-par league/level, while watching others develop and play at competitive levels. AAA would give choices to those currently lacking development opportunities for the serious player in the winter.
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Tenoverpar
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:40 pm
same place
It's in the same place as the publics...its in the STUDENTS, its in the ALUMNI, its in the PARENTS, its in the PLAYERS, its in the heart of those that grew up playing with those players as 9, 12, 14 y/o's.
Multiple schools
Even if allot of those kids at those schools have moved around and played at multiple schools to find a winner? same same ha, I don't think so, there is no community support, its all about finding a winner[/quote]
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Tenoverpar
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:40 pm
serious
seriously, you've got a very scewed view of Private schools and the small group of players that have the chance to don a jersey sporting the name.
I'd be probably spot on to say that more players have moved inter-public to find a winner than have transferred to a private seeking W's.
You must be a kid, because to have an adult view like that is simply stupid.
I'd be probably spot on to say that more players have moved inter-public to find a winner than have transferred to a private seeking W's.
You must be a kid, because to have an adult view like that is simply stupid.