State Tournament Idea

[wannagototherink]

Need to be careful, don't want to screw it up for all like basketball has done.

I agree move up to AA won't have problem with tournament there will be no talk then about A vs. AA.

Plus can chat all you want MSHSL controls tournament.

What gets lost in this whole discussion regarding the tournament is...The A tournament was created so teams like Mankato West, Virginia, Greenway, and other small communities could compete on a level playing field with schools from communities of similiar size. Unfortunately, STA or Duluth Marshall isn't a "community" school. they don't draw their players from a town of 2 - 3 thousand people (if that) like a true single A team does. Infact I would be interested to see how many different communities made up the STA or DM teams. This BS about school enrollment is garbage. If I start a school and have only 50 students that attend and of those 50 students 20 are the top players hand picked from several different communities than does it really matter what my schools enrollment is?


Private schools should either be in their own tournament or forced to play AA. If not, you should expect to see the A tournament consist of the same teams every year........Duluth Marshall, STA, Breck, Blake, Totino, Lourdes....am I missing any? I'm sure I am, and I'm sure some of these teams play in the same section, but I think you can get my point. That is not what the A tournament was intended for....

As far as the start of this post...Penalty Shot, I don't like. I would rather see the tournament go back to Tier I/Tier II. At least that way teams matchups were decided based on performance.

[mainefan]

Need to be careful, don't want to screw it up for all like basketball has done.

I agree move up to AA won't have problem with tournament there will be no talk then about A vs. AA.

Plus can chat all you want MSHSL controls tournament.

What gets lost in this whole discussion regarding the tournament is...The A tournament was created so teams like Mankato West, Virginia, Greenway, and other small communities could compete on a level playing field with schools from communities of similiar size. Unfortunately, STA or Duluth Marshall isn't a "community" school. they don't draw their players from a town of 2 - 3 thousand people (if that) like a true single A team does. Infact I would be interested to see how many different communities made up the STA or DM teams. This BS about school enrollment is garbage. If I start a school and have only 50 students that attend and of those 50 students 20 are the top players hand picked from several different communities than does it really matter what my schools enrollment is?


Private schools should either be in their own tournament or forced to play AA. If not, you should expect to see the A tournament consist of the same teams every year........Duluth Marshall, STA, Breck, Blake, Totino, Lourdes....am I missing any? I'm sure I am, and I'm sure some of these teams play in the same section, but I think you can get my point. That is not what the A tournament was intended for....

As far as the start of this post...Penalty Shot, I don't like. I would rather see the tournament go back to Tier I/Tier II. At least that way teams matchups were decided based on performance.

[ap4mvp]

Need to be careful, don't want to screw it up for all like basketball has done.

I agree move up to AA won't have problem with tournament there will be no talk then about A vs. AA.

Plus can chat all you want MSHSL controls tournament.

What gets lost in this whole discussion regarding the tournament is...The A tournament was created so teams like Mankato West, Virginia, Greenway, and other small communities could compete on a level playing field with schools from communities of similiar size. Unfortunately, STA or Duluth Marshall isn't a "community" school. they don't draw their players from a town of 2 - 3 thousand people (if that) like a true single A team does. Infact I would be interested to see how many different communities made up the STA or DM teams. This BS about school enrollment is garbage. If I start a school and have only 50 students that attend and of those 50 students 20 are the top players hand picked from several different communities than does it really matter what my schools enrollment is?


Private schools should either be in their own tournament or forced to play AA. If not, you should expect to see the A tournament consist of the same teams every year........Duluth Marshall, STA, Breck, Blake, Totino, Lourdes....am I missing any? I'm sure I am, and I'm sure some of these teams play in the same section, but I think you can get my point. That is not what the A tournament was intended for....

As far as the start of this post...Penalty Shot, I don't like. I would rather see the tournament go back to Tier I/Tier II. At least that way teams matchups were decided based on performance.

[packerboy]

What gets lost in this whole discussion regarding the tournament is...The A tournament was created so teams like Mankato West, Virginia, Greenway, and other small communities could compete on a level playing field with schools from communities of similiar size...............................................................................

This BS about school enrollment is garbage.

Thats typical of the circle we go in whenever the topic is brought up.

"Class A was meant for small schools but remember enrollment size means nothing in hockey"



But thats the nature of the beast. There is no way u are going to have a class system in hockey that makes any sense so long as you have arbitrary criteria for class assignment.

Adding arbitrary stuff like "All privates should play in AA" is just as bad. Really, so St Bernards should play in AA because they are private and Roseau can play A?

If you are going to have a 2 class system in hockey that makes sense, you have to have a hybrid type of class assignment criteria that was originally proposed but rejected by the MSHSL because it would have required thought.

[wannagototherink]

What gets lost in this whole discussion regarding the tournament is...The A tournament was created so teams like Mankato West, Virginia, Greenway, and other small communities could compete on a level playing field with schools from communities of similiar size...............................................................................

This BS about school enrollment is garbage.

Thats typical of the circle we go in whenever the topic is brought up.

"Class A was meant for small schools but remember enrollment size means nothing in hockey"



But thats the nature of the beast. There is no way u are going to have a class system in hockey that makes any sense so long as you have arbitrary criteria for class assignment.

Adding arbitrary stuff like "All privates should play in AA" is just as bad. Really, so St Bernards should play in AA because they are private and Roseau can play A?

If you are going to have a 2 class system in hockey that makes sense, you have to have a hybrid type of class assignment criteria that was originally proposed but rejected by the MSHSL because it would have required thought.

Yes ALL Private Schools should be required to play AA hockey. St. Bernards or any private school that may not have the resources to recruit now, but who's to say they won't next year or the year after. Again, if you are drawing kids from an unlimited area you should be required to play AA. There is nothin arbitrary about it. Hell, here is an even better idea, we (society) could work toward the timeless goal of getting everyone a trophy if you had the private schools in one tournament, than AA and A for the public schools. Can you imagine, all those extra trophies getting to those kids whose parent just can't live with being told their little jimmy and johny's just aren't quite champions. Three tournaments all those lives you could change by getting 160 more kids to the "special" event?


...Give me a break. It won't happen, but the only good option is going back to one tournament.

[mainefan]

A two tier tourney is not so every kid can get a trophy. Why should-in pb's words-the "witto" schools be denied a chance to play on a level playing rink? Talk about a way to loose fans, interest and supprt for high school hockey in the regions beyond the metro. Who wants to watch the same schools year in and year out. It may be "jv" hockey to you big guys and privates but the small communities take pride in their teams as much as you do -win or loose. And don't even bring up open enrollment as being akin to privates recruiting-it's not. It just doesn't happen that often in the smaller communities. The kids want to play with their friends, for their community and most parents are not going to schlep them to a different school when there is a perfectly good one in there own town (my mother speaking now )! The arguement that a school like St. Bernards should not be in AA does not hold water they can draw from any where they want at any time. Just leave us alone in A. Privates should be in AA.

[Doug Mackenzie]

With open enrollment, ANY school can draw players from an unlimited area.

Many public schools get players from outside their district as well. (Warroad? Elk River?) So to say private schools have an advantage in this sense is innaccurate. In fact public schools may have an advantage here. How? Let's look at this scenario:

Jimmy in a very good hockey player that lives in St. Paul. He wants to play hockey with other players that are at his level and have his same passion for the game. He and his parents don't see the local public school as a good option, so they start looking at other local schools. He could go to; Roseville for FREE, White Bear for FREE, or say Tartan for FREE. Also, he could attend Hill-Murray for $8,000 a year or Cretin for $8,200 a year.

or even if they were looking for a "second tier" program....St. Paul Johnson (Free), North St. Paul (Free)....St. Bernard's ($7,200)

tell me how the private school has the advantage here?

[wannagototherink]

With open enrollment, ANY school can draw players from an unlimited area.

Many public schools get players from outside their district as well. (Warroad? Elk River?) So to say private schools have an advantage in this sense is innaccurate. In fact public schools may have an advantage here. How? Let's look at this scenario:

Jimmy in a very good hockey player that lives in St. Paul. He wants to play hockey with other players that are at his level and have his same passion for the game. He and his parents don't see the local public school as a good option, so they start looking at other local schools. He could go to; Roseville for FREE, White Bear for FREE, or say Tartan for FREE. Also, he could attend Hill-Murray for $8,000 a year or Cretin for $8,200 a year.

or even if they were looking for a "second tier" program....St. Paul Johnson (Free), North St. Paul (Free)....St. Bernard's ($7,200)

tell me how the private school has the advantage here?

Seriously???? Thats your argument? Well for starters, everyone in the Private schools are there from somewhere else. Community based teams are not going to have the top to bottom talent a private school is going to have on a regular basis. At the MAHA Bantam A tournament a couple of weeks ago, I saw coaches from.....Benilde, Blake, Holy Angels, STA, Cretin, Hill Murray, Breck and Providence. I did not see coaches from any other high schools there, other than the ones who had their community teams playing. Of course Eric Aus was there, Centennial was playing, Giles was there cause Edina was playing. I didn't see South St. Paul or St. Paul Johnson, or Henry Sibley, or Burnsville, or Woodbury and countless other schools. Those guys don't show up at that event but coaches from almost 10 private schools were there and that is only the ones I saw. Give me a break...You can't compare community/public schools to private schools.

How many of the kids playing on STA this year live with in a five mile radius of that school? How many playing for Edina live within a five mile radius of Edina High School? I bet the numbers are staggering. What do you think the furthest away someone drives to go to school at Woodbury? How about Hill....actually, how many kids driving to Hill have to cross the state border to get to school from Wisconsin. How about Duluth Marshall, they have kids on their team that grew up 3 hours away. Alexandria, Virgina, Moose Lake...It is a joke. I would love to see how many of these people would be sending their hockey players to these schools for "education" if they weren't top hockey programs. Do public schools recruit...absolutely, do they have kids move in to play...absolutely. Is there roster made up of kids from 15 different community programs.........no, and that is the difference.

I think once this new transfer rules has taken hold for a couple of years, you'll see a lot of private schools go away never to be seen from again. The bottom line is not everyone is playing on a level playing field.

Your argument about public schools being free so they have a better chance of getting kids in may make sense in a rationale world, but the hockey world is far from a rationale one.

[mainefan]

With open enrollment, ANY school can draw players from an unlimited area.

Many public schools get players from outside their district as well. (Warroad? Elk River?) So to say private schools have an advantage in this sense is innaccurate. In fact public schools may have an advantage here. How? Let's look at this scenario:

Jimmy in a very good hockey player that lives in St. Paul. He wants to play hockey with other players that are at his level and have his same passion for the game. He and his parents don't see the local public school as a good option, so they start looking at other local schools. He could go to; Roseville for FREE, White Bear for FREE, or say Tartan for FREE. Also, he could attend Hill-Murray for $8,000 a year or Cretin for $8,200 a year.

or even if they were looking for a "second tier" program....St. Paul Johnson (Free), North St. Paul (Free)....St. Bernard's ($7,200)

tell me how the private school has the advantage here?

Don't whine about tuition if the kid has talent the privates will find the scholarships for him/her. This happens all the time. So then, who would you choose if a bunch of monies became available to send your superstar hotshot hockey player to let's say Hill-Murray or would you send him to St. paul Johnson for free?

[packerboy]

wanango, Forget the level playing field. There never has been nor will there ever be a level playing field. Certain areas have advantages over others for a number of different reasons and that changes over time. No team in the metro area besides Johnson ever won a tournament until 1969 when Edina did it.

Does any one seriously suggest that CDH, AHA, or HM has an advantage over Edina today? Now, its poor witto Edina? Silly.

If all of the private school phobics got there way and all of the Catholics were thrown out or put into one section, does that leave the playing field level? Do you think that Johnson and Henry Sibley would feel that they are now on a level playing field with Edina and EP because the Catholics are gone?

We need to stop worring about 'leveling the playing filed' and start recognizing that some schools and / or communities are better at hockey than others regardlees of how we might categorize them.

Not all privates are going to be hockey powers. Not all poor witto schools like Roseau and GR are going to be door mats.

Once we stop stereotyping and arbitrarily assigning teams to classes based on irrelevant chararcteristics, we could actually put something together that makes sense.

Until such time, it aint gonna happen and I agree, lets go back to one class.

[Doug Mackenzie]

With open enrollment, ANY school can draw players from an unlimited area.

Many public schools get players from outside their district as well. (Warroad? Elk River?) So to say private schools have an advantage in this sense is innaccurate. In fact public schools may have an advantage here. How? Let's look at this scenario:

Jimmy in a very good hockey player that lives in St. Paul. He wants to play hockey with other players that are at his level and have his same passion for the game. He and his parents don't see the local public school as a good option, so they start looking at other local schools. He could go to; Roseville for FREE, White Bear for FREE, or say Tartan for FREE. Also, he could attend Hill-Murray for $8,000 a year or Cretin for $8,200 a year.

or even if they were looking for a "second tier" program....St. Paul Johnson (Free), North St. Paul (Free)....St. Bernard's ($7,200)

tell me how the private school has the advantage here?

Don't whine about tuition if the kid has talent the privates will find the scholarships for him/her. This happens all the time. So then, who would you choose if a bunch of monies became available to send your superstar hotshot hockey player to let's say Hill-Murray or would you send him to St. paul Johnson for free?

Show me an instance of this happening. Not something you heard third hand, but something you know for a fact (can be proven). If you can give me a name, a school, who the donor was and an amount of $, I just might change my mind on the subject.

BTW, I'm not whining about the tuition. What I was saying is that any kid can go to any school. I don't see how a school that costs thousands, has a built in advantage over a school that is free.

[Doug Mackenzie]

Seriously???? Thats your argument? Well for starters, everyone in the Private schools are there from somewhere else.

There's no chance that you'd take into account kids that have been going to private school since elementary?

Community based teams are not going to have the top to bottom talent a private school is going to have on a regular basis.

[/quote]

You mean the top end talent like Minnehaha and SPA?

Or the lack of depth like Edina, Centennial, or Eden Prairie?

At the MAHA Bantam A tournament a couple of weeks ago, I saw coaches from.....Benilde, Blake, Holy Angels, STA, Cretin, Hill Murray, Breck and Providence.

Again, no chance that none of these guys had kids who are already enrolled at their school playing No chance one of those EP kids already goes to BSM? None of those WBL kids alredy go to Hill?


Also funny that you saw the Breck coach there, when as of right now, they don't have a coach.

I did not see coaches from any other high schools there, other than the ones who had their community teams playing. Of course Eric Aus was there, Centennial was playing, Giles was there cause Edina was playing. I didn't see South St. Paul or St. Paul Johnson, or Henry Sibley, or Burnsville, or Woodbury and countless other schools. Those guys don't show up at that event but coaches from almost 10 private schools were there and that is only the ones I saw.

Again, these guys didn't have palyers there, maybe the guy at Blake did.

Give me a break...You can't compare community/public schools to private schools.

Community Schools? Like the community of Henry Sibley, never heard of it. Is it by Centennial? Because I've never seen that community on a map either.

How many of the kids playing on STA this year live with in a five mile radius of that school? How many playing for Edina live within a five mile radius of Edina High School? I bet the numbers are staggering. What do you think the furthest away someone drives to go to school at Woodbury?

How many kids on Elk River lived within 5 miles of that school?

How about Hill....actually, how many kids driving to Hill have to cross the state border to get to school from Wisconsin. How about Duluth Marshall, they have kids on their team that grew up 3 hours away. Alexandria, Virgina, Moose Lake...It is a joke.

Yeah, because Eastview has never had kids from other states on their team

I would love to see how many of these people would be sending their hockey players to these schools for "education" if they weren't top hockey programs. Do public schools recruit...absolutely, do they have kids move in to play...absolutely. Is there roster made up of kids from 15 different community programs.........no, and that is the difference.

Wouldn't that put them at a disadvantage? Kids having to all come together under one new system?

I think once this new transfer rules has taken hold for a couple of years, you'll see a lot of private schools go away never to be seen from again. The bottom line is not everyone is playing on a level playing field.

We agree, to a point, here. I hope all the "free agent" type teams go away. Public and private.

Your argument about public schools being free so they have a better chance of getting kids in may make sense in a rationale world, but the hockey world is far from a rationale one.[/quote]

That we can agree on

[wannagototherink]

With open enrollment, ANY school can draw players from an unlimited area.

Many public schools get players from outside their district as well. (Warroad? Elk River?) So to say private schools have an advantage in this sense is innaccurate. In fact public schools may have an advantage here. How? Let's look at this scenario:

Jimmy in a very good hockey player that lives in St. Paul. He wants to play hockey with other players that are at his level and have his same passion for the game. He and his parents don't see the local public school as a good option, so they start looking at other local schools. He could go to; Roseville for FREE, White Bear for FREE, or say Tartan for FREE. Also, he could attend Hill-Murray for $8,000 a year or Cretin for $8,200 a year.

or even if they were looking for a "second tier" program....St. Paul Johnson (Free), North St. Paul (Free)....St. Bernard's ($7,200)

tell me how the private school has the advantage here?

Don't whine about tuition if the kid has talent the privates will find the scholarships for him/her. This happens all the time. So then, who would you choose if a bunch ofShow me an instance of this happening. Not something you heard third hand, but something you know for a fact (can be proven). If you can give me a name, a school, who the donor was and an amount of $, I just might change my mind on the subject monies became available to send your superstar hotshot hockey player to let's say Hill-Murray or would you send him to St. paul Johnson for free?

.

BTW, I'm not whining about the tuition. What I was saying is that any kid can go to any school. I don't see how a school that costs thousands, has a built in advantage over a school that is free.

If you want to contact me personally on here I can give you the name of one donor who has paid the tution of several players at a certain school. I know it because I've talked with him about it. But like he says "who's gonna prove it, it's not like the high school league has any authority to get my finacial records and statements" Plus I'm not going to blurt any names out over this message board because there is nothing good that could come from it. But I'd be happy to tell you if you contact me.

[Doug Mackenzie]

Well then my stance would be that that school should be punished. Something like a 2-3 year ban on post season play, similar to how the NCAA handles infractions.

But I still don't think we should punish all private schools for the sins of a few.

Punishing Holy Family Catholic or SPA by making them play AA because of what (dirty private school) does seems a little unjust to me.

Punish the guilty (public or private), leave those that have committed no infractions alone (public or private).

[Penalty Shot]

Heh guys this was one of my reasons for posting my idea (first post on page 1). No one can get it perfect. There are arguments in every post that hold water and arguments that are far from what the actualities are. My suggestion that to get to state where each section would have the (smaller, tier1, single A whatever you want to call that class) play down to two teams and then play the (larger, AA, or whatever) two teams for two births at the tourney provides a format where every team that has been at state the last 5 years whether A or AA would still have a dream game to get there. How much more would a victory over Duluth East to get to state mean to Duluth Marshall (Dont start the argument they should be playing each other anyway. They SHOULD be but dirty politics are there and I do not blame East for not scheduling Marshall and I also understand what a great game it would be. Again there is no right answer when politics are involved). 16 teams could be tough to handle but could be a lot of fun, create at least as much revenue, and potentially take a great event and add substanially to it. Someone mentions that the single A tourney was meant for teams like Mankato West. They would have had a legitimate shot at the AA tourney this year especially if they would have had 2 teams from their section (Again the 16 team format). In addition when smaller less competitive teams come to state they are still getting drilled, and probably would be by most teams that play Friday afternoon in the Semi-Finals. Marshall, St. Thomas, Warroad would not be accused of being "trophy hunters". Talk about the time when if your team made it to state it was a cause for a major celebration let Warroad get their every 5 years and bring the party wagon down instead of every year and having people question the integrity of one of the most storied programs in the state. It has been mentioned that program supporters have paid kids way into private schools (there have been abuses in the public schools as well). Has it happened? I know it has and sometimes there are great reasons that truly benefit a kid both for hockey as well as for more important reasons. And there are times where it is flat out a hockey scholorship which is unfortunate as there are kids who need and deserve the help alot more. I do not beleive there has been a lot of recruiting by coaches in the last 5 years but I do beleive parents have recruited, I think coaches have been open to accecpting and encouraging open enrollment kids when contacted, but I think the biggest recruiters are the programs themselves and the traditions some of the teams and coaches have. Forget the arguments that cant be won. Could the 16 team format take alot of that away? I don't know. In addition all people that want to talk about the popularity of the A tourney, what do you think attendance would be like if it were held on a seperate weekend? Not trying to be nasty but I think they should recognize a tremendous amount of the A tourney's success comes from piggybacking on the AA tourney. Ask scouts how many would go to the single A tourney on a seperate weekend? The answer might surprise you.

[wannagototherink]

Heh guys this was one of my reasons for posting my idea (first post on page 1). No one can get it perfect. There are arguments in every post that hold water and arguments that are far from what the actualities are. My suggestion that to get to state where each section would have the (smaller, tier1, single A whatever you want to call that class) play down to two teams and then play the (larger, AA, or whatever) two teams for two births at the tourney provides a format where every team that has been at state the last 5 years whether A or AA would still have a dream game to get there. How much more would a victory over Duluth East to get to state mean to Duluth Marshall (Dont start the argument they should be playing each other anyway. They SHOULD be but dirty politics are there and I do not blame East for not scheduling Marshall and I also understand what a great game it would be. Again there is no right answer when politics are involved). 16 teams could be tough to handle but could be a lot of fun, create at least as much revenue, and potentially take a great event and add substanially to it. Someone mentions that the single A tourney was meant for teams like Mankato West. They would have had a legitimate shot at the AA tourney this year especially if they would have had 2 teams from their section (Again the 16 team format). In addition when smaller less competitive teams come to state they are still getting drilled, and probably would be by most teams that play Friday afternoon in the Semi-Finals. Marshall, St. Thomas, Warroad would not be accused of being "trophy hunters". Talk about the time when if your team made it to state it was a cause for a major celebration let Warroad get their every 5 years and bring the party wagon down instead of every year and having people question the integrity of one of the most storied programs in the state. It has been mentioned that program supporters have paid kids way into private schools (there have been abuses in the public schools as well). Has it happened? I know it has and sometimes there are great reasons that truly benefit a kid both for hockey as well as for more important reasons. And there are times where it is flat out a hockey scholorship which is unfortunate as there are kids who need and deserve the help alot more. I do not beleive there has been a lot of recruiting by coaches in the last 5 years but I do beleive parents have recruited, I think coaches have been open to accecpting and encouraging open enrollment kids when contacted, but I think the biggest recruiters are the programs themselves and the traditions some of the teams and coaches have. Forget the arguments that cant be won. Could the 16 team format take alot of that away? I don't know. In addition all people that want to talk about the popularity of the A tourney, what do you think attendance would be like if it were held on a seperate weekend? Not trying to be nasty but I think they should recognize a tremendous amount of the A tourney's success comes from piggybacking on the AA tourney. Ask scouts how many would go to the single A tourney on a seperate weekend? The answer might surprise you.

Here's the deal with a 16 team tournament.......the MSHSL tried a 16 team tournament with basketball 8-10 years ago and it was a disaster. The small schools got run out of the building, and it went from those small programs getting to the state tourament to, those small schools getting embarrassed. I think that Minneapolis North team with Kalid Al Amid beat some northern school by something like 50 points. How bad did Mankato West lose to D. Marshall this year? Could you imagine what that score would have been if they were opening up against Hill-Murray?

Here is what is really lost in the whole thing.......EVERY TEAM IN THE STATE MAKES THE STATE TOURNAMENT. When you get right down to it, basically it is set up much like the NCAA basketball tournament. No not everyone gets to St. Paul but everyone is playing in the same tournament.

My other question is, under your plan P-Shot, why do we need classes anyway? Wouldn't it just basically be two teams coming out of each section?

The bottom line is the high school league went to a two tier/class tournament to give smaller schools a chance to get there and experience the tournament. The plan has backfired and part of me says good, cause they never should have messed with the tournament in the first place.

[MNHockeyFan]

The bottom line is the high school league went to a two tier/class tournament to give smaller schools a chance to get there and experience the tournament. The plan has backfired and part of me says good, cause they never should have messed with the tournament in the first place.

In what way has the 2 Class plan backfired? They just set an all-time attendance record which would indicate that the interest level is higher than ever.

[packerboy]

In a lot of peoples minds, it has backfired because the poor witto schools that they thought it (Class A) was created for, arent winning it.

The first 6-7 years it was all good. A small northern team won it every year except 1 and then it was Red Wing. Everybody is happy.

Now its been dominated by metro privates and people dont like that because they think that privates have a big advantage and shouldnt be allowed to play in A. So, for those fans it has backfired.

For everybody else, its a growing , successful tournament with maybe some more upside in attendence.

[MNHockeyFan]

In a lot of peoples minds, it has backfired because the poor witto schools that they thought it (Class A) was created for, arent winning it.

The first 6-7 years it was all good. A small northern team won it every year except 1 and then it was Red Wing. Everybody is happy.

Now its been dominated by metro privates and people dont like that because they think that privates have a big advantage and shouldnt be allowed to play in A. So, for those fans it has backfired.

For everybody else, its a growing , successful tournament with maybe some more upside in attendence.

Well as anyone who has followed the Tournament over the years would know, these things go in streaks and nothing remains constant for long. Certain teams and even areas of the State will have a good run and then someone else will step up and do well. You don't change the whole thing around based solely on what's happened in the last few years. These kinds of cycles are inevitable and if you look at other sports you'll see the same thing.

One thing that people overlook is that the recent rise of several metro privates has forced everyone else to try that much harder to improve so they're in a better position to become the best and start a new cycle. The excellence of a few raises the bar for other teams who want to win, and this becomes a good thing for everyone and the game as a whole. This is what will keep the interest level high. As soon as you artificially impose mediocrity, the fans will stop coming. I believe that is why Tier II a few years back was such a dismal failure. Who cares if you are the best of the worst?

[packerboy]

MN Hockeyfan wrote:One thing that people overlook is that the recent rise of several metro privates has forced everyone else to try that much harder to improve so they're in a better position to become the best and start a new cycle

I dunno about that.

It sounds good but is it reality?

Has Crookston, Little Falls and Albert Lea just been lazy?

Will DM and STA inspire those programs to go on to glory?

I dont think so.

[MNHockeyFan]

I dunno about that.

It sounds good but is it reality?

Has Crookston, Little Falls and Albert Lea just been lazy?

Will DM and STA inspire those programs to go on to glory?

I dont think so.

I just think that, whenever you get beat, you then MUST work even harder to give your team a better chance the next time around. A good coach will see what the other team is doing to exploit your weaknesses and then do whatever he can to fix them. For example in AA, I think the Roseau team was severely hampered by Hill Murray's physical play, and they should be working hard to overcome such tactics in order to be better prepared next year. If they had walked through the tournament and won every game last year, they wouldn't have the same incentive to work on their weaknesses.

So all I was saying is that the privates, by winning lately in this cycle, have raised the bar for the top public schools to perform even better, and that's a good thing for the high school game in general.

P.S. Probably the best all-time example of this was the 1980 Miracle on Ice team. The Soviets had raised the bar to such a high level that Herb Brooks knew he had to take drastic measures for his team to compete. If the Soviets hadn't been around it's doubtful the U.S. team would have ever been as motivated to achieve that same level of greatness. Their only other option would have been to lobby the IOC for a change in the rules, trying to get them to declare that the Soviets were a "pro" team and shouldn't be allowed to compete in what used to be a tournament for amateurs only. On a far lesser scale, that's what we're seeing here, the privates have all these advantages and are "all star" teams and therefore shouldn't be allowed to compete.

[pistol]

I love high school hockey.

I am blessed that my former high school has been one of the top teams for my whole life.

Hill-Murray is the definition of "community-based," because how much more close can people be who share faith-based values?

What is your "community" based on? The government? Wasted tax dollars? People you never even see? The neighbor you can't stand, because he is Catholic?

It's too bad that bored bigotry encourages shut-ins to slander Catholics with allegations of dishonesty, instead of participating in the so-called "community" to make it as top-notch as Hill-Murray's programs.

[mainefan]

I love high school hockey.

I am blessed that my former high school has been one of the top teams for my whole life.

Hill-Murray is the definition of "community-based," because how much more close can people be who share faith-based values?

What is your "community" based on? The government? Wasted tax dollars? People you never even see? The neighbor you can't stand, because he is Catholic?

It's too bad that bored bigotry encourages shut-ins to slander Catholics with allegations of dishonesty, instead of participating in the so-called "community" to make it as top-notch as Hill-Murray's programs.

I am offended that you would presume this discussion is based on religon. I to am a Catholic and in my community people of all races and religons live together harmoniously working for the good of the community by volunteering to coach sports, volunteering in schools, sitting on our community boards whatever they may be, taking care of our elderly shut ins, providing to the local food banks, etc...... the list goes on and on.
Please don't play that card when this discussion arises it only makes you look like the bigot.

[Indians forever]

I love high school hockey.

I am blessed that my former high school has been one of the top teams for my whole life.

Hill-Murray is the definition of "community-based," because how much more close can people be who share faith-based values?

What is your "community" based on? The government? Wasted tax dollars? People you never even see? The neighbor you can't stand, because he is Catholic?

It's too bad that bored bigotry encourages shut-ins to slander Catholics with allegations of dishonesty, instead of participating in the so-called "community" to make it as top-notch as Hill-Murray's programs.

Pistol you make no sense like usual!!!!!!

[packerboy]

I love high school hockey.

I am blessed that my former high school has been one of the top teams for my whole life.

Hill-Murray is the definition of "community-based," because how much more close can people be who share faith-based values?

What is your "community" based on? The government? Wasted tax dollars? People you never even see? The neighbor you can't stand, because he is Catholic?

It's too bad that bored bigotry encourages shut-ins to slander Catholics with allegations of dishonesty, instead of participating in the so-called "community" to make it as top-notch as Hill-Murray's programs.

Bless you my son.

Brother pistol has once again shown us how to live our faith , even if it isn't popular or cool with other members of the bored.

mainefan, dont be a "Kerry Catholic" and dont be fooled by posters who cant even bring themselves to describe our schools properly and instead attempt to mask their bigotry like KKK members by use of the term "private".

pistol has been devoted to pulling the white hoods off of their heads. He knows how they would answer the question; "Yah , but would you want your daughter to marry one?"