St. Cloud Youth Hockey Split

[Blue&Gold]

Gotta run and do some business at my first job.

Anyone who wants to visit, please wait for me to respond until later or call me on my cell -- 320-260-8387 and leave a message. My e mail is mikek@mainstreetcom.com if you want to send it in private. I promise to respond as quickly as possible. Thanks.

Did you get my PM? (technology, who knows...)

[zippitydoda]

Loose Goose:

At least some have the guts to step forward and reveal their names. Why don't you? What HS does your kid go to? Where do you live? Easy to accuse others of having an agenda when you shoot your mouth off without revealing yourself.

[wickedshot]

Hi Blue and Gold:

I am checking this on my web on my cell phone -- you're right, technology is wonderful when it works. I didn't get the PM on this forum, but try it again or send it to my above e mail and I'll make a connection with you tonight (before the Wild game or in between periods). Maybe we can meet up for coffee.

[George Blanda]

Loose Goose:

At least some have the guts to step forward and reveal their names. Why don't you? What HS does your kid go to? Where do you live? Easy to accuse others of having an agenda when you shoot your mouth off without revealing yourself.

But that works both ways. Who are you? Where do you live? Etc.

Personally, I don't care. If someone wants to hide behind a name, so be it. That's there choice.

I haven't been shy to admit who I am and where my allegience lies. But that's my choice.

[frederick61]

Elliott70

“Wicked” commented as follows: “Yes, I am concerned about the Cathedral kids. One of my kid's best friends is a CHS varsity player and I almost consider him a family member. I would like to see CHS, Apollo and Tech have its own teams at each level and leave it up to them to each to decide if they want to play at each level at A, B1 or whatever. But that's up to MN Hockey. We still will bring it up at the meeting for discussion.”

Can a Hockey Association split or re-form in some to accommodate a private, religious based, school? If it is allowed by Minnesota Hockey, what must that association do to assure Minnesota Hockey that the portion of the program associated with the private school is viable (community approval, available facilities, etc).

[zippitydoda]

GB:

I don't have a stake in this one way or another. What I'm saying is that if one guy reveals his name, why should a guy who takes a shot at him not reveal his?

[George Blanda]

GB:

I don't have a stake in this one way or another. What I'm saying is that if one guy reveals his name, why should a guy who takes a shot at him not reveal his?

Well, then. I have revealed my name and you have taken countless jabs at me in the past. So...like I said, it works both ways...

[Blue&Gold]

Hi Blue and Gold:

I am checking this on my web on my cell phone -- you're right, technology is wonderful when it works. I didn't get the PM on this forum, but try it again or send it to my above e mail and I'll make a connection with you tonight (before the Wild game or in between periods). Maybe we can meet up for coffee.

I'll send an email. Keep in mind tonight I'll be booked watching the USHL playoff game as well, but we will talk. (watching on the B2 network)

[elliott70]

Elliott70

“Wicked” commented as follows: “Yes, I am concerned about the Cathedral kids. One of my kid's best friends is a CHS varsity player and I almost consider him a family member. I would like to see CHS, Apollo and Tech have its own teams at each level and leave it up to them to each to decide if they want to play at each level at A, B1 or whatever. But that's up to MN Hockey. We still will bring it up at the meeting for discussion.”

Can a Hockey Association split or re-form in some to accommodate a private, religious based, school? If it is allowed by Minnesota Hockey, what must that association do to assure Minnesota Hockey that the portion of the program associated with the private school is viable (community approval, available facilities, etc).

Fred
The local association can 'subdivide' and allow a team to be formed from certain groups. DAHA (Duluth) does that.
My initial comment at the first discernment committee meeting was something to that effect.
We need a definition of 'association' with verbage on how they are formed, how they are ended, how they are split and how they can accomodate diverse groups that come under their umbrella.

Hopefully, we will work on that in the upcoming meeting, though I do not see enough time allocated to us. Again hopefully, some if not all of the committee guys will be willing to work before and after our assigned time.

Feel free to come over to the meeting for some or all.

Mark

[Mac15]

My sons used to play for District 281 hockey when they were mites. Most of you probably never heard of District 281 but know them by their current names of Armstrong Youth Hockey and Cooper Youth Hockey. Program separations can and do occur. Cooper and Armstrong are both interested in feeding their high schools and who can blame them. Players from both association end up skating at private high schools so their situation is very much like St Cloud's.

MK, Good luck with your new association. (yes, you do know who I am)

[Stealth]

Mike & Elliot

How worried are you that MN Hockey will like your idea, BUT!
BOTH St. Cloud Association will now be moved to District 5 along with Sauk Rapids.
They would take Mound and Buffalo and shift them to District 3 and place Maple Grove/Osseo in 10?

Or some adjustments like that?

This could help MN Hockey create a whole new central Minnesota district altogether? Eliot, Could this acttully HELP solve some past headaches??

[elliott70]

Mike & Elliot

How worried are you that MN Hockey will like your idea, BUT!
BOTH St. Cloud Association will now be moved to District 5 along with Sauk Rapids.
They would take Mound and Buffalo and shift them to District 3 and place Maple Grove/Osseo in 10?

Or some adjustments like that?

This could help MN Hockey create a whole new central Minnesota district altogether? Eliot, Could this acttully HELP solve some past headaches??

Yes.

It was brought up about 5 years ago, but was not accepted by some of the DD's.

[BlueGoose5]

Mike & Elliot

How worried are you that MN Hockey will like your idea, BUT!
BOTH St. Cloud Association will now be moved to District 5 along with Sauk Rapids.
They would take Mound and Buffalo and shift them to District 3 and place Maple Grove/Osseo in 10?

Or some adjustments like that?

This could help MN Hockey create a whole new central Minnesota district altogether? Eliot, Could this acttully HELP solve some past headaches??

Yes.

It was brought up about 5 years ago, but was not accepted by some of the DD's.

Well this would be just great. The Tech faction is trying to destroy SCYHA in the hope of building up Tech HS boys hockey (a lot of good it did Cooper and Armstrong--see above reference). Now in District 5, Tech youth hockey wouldn't face nearly the competition it would in District 10. Although they'll still be able to compete with Sartell and Cambridge, they'll be inadequately prepared to face Roseau and Moorhead in a sectional play-off game.

[elliott70]

Mike & Elliot

How worried are you that MN Hockey will like your idea, BUT!
BOTH St. Cloud Association will now be moved to District 5 along with Sauk Rapids.
They would take Mound and Buffalo and shift them to District 3 and place Maple Grove/Osseo in 10?

Or some adjustments like that?

This could help MN Hockey create a whole new central Minnesota district altogether? Eliot, Could this acttully HELP solve some past headaches??

Yes.

It was brought up about 5 years ago, but was not accepted by some of the DD's.

Well this would be just great. The Tech faction is trying to destroy SCYHA in the hope of building up Tech HS boys hockey (a lot of good it did Cooper and Armstrong--see above reference). Now in District 5, Tech youth hockey wouldn't face nearly the competition it would in District 10. Although they'll still be able to compete with Sartell and Cambridge, they'll be inadequately prepared to face Roseau and Moorhead in a sectional play-off game.

Short-sighted.

If you are grouped with 6 or 7 other bantam A teams you play 12 or 14 district games.
If you are scheduling 40 games in season, yuo have the ability to pick 25 or 30 games to match your current year level of ability to get the most out of games as a development tool.

Playing Centennial, Blaine, Anoka, Elk River is fine most years, but if you have a choice of those teams or 2 with Edina, Moorhead, Duluth East, White Bear Lake, and Centenial may be more productive for your team.
And some years it maybe better to have Brainerd, Bemidji, Grand Rapids and Hutchinson on your schedule.
Take a couple of minutes and think about it. More flexible schedule, greater chance to advance to regiosn/state, and can be adjusted to fit your current talent level vs. mandated trips to 15 other district games which may or may not be good competition.

[Stealth]

Elliot,

Start with a Thank You to you and all past/present individuals that step up to make a difference. Always been fun having your ear and eyes on here.

Mike and his group are doing the same, trying to make a difference. Nothing wrong with it. Heck of allot of energy here.

This sure helps from a business side of making a decision that benefit everyone around the company you volunteered to help direct in a growth of the sport.

Things change in that growth and MN Hockey can change with them. That 94 corridor is busting with growth.
Just a thought or idea.

District 10 who rumbles they don’t like to travel north to Sauk Rapids and possible BOTH St. Clouds go to District 5

Could move Mora, Braham, Pine City, Cambridge, St. Francis, Princeton and North Branch go to District 2 (only has 8 associations now)

Mound is next to Orono (Orono moved to District 3 from 5) and Buffalo wants out of District 5 go to District 3.

How long till Osseo and Maple could some day be separated, I think they play separate today? Move to 10?

That would make the following associations represented in each District the following respectfully.
District 2 -- was 8, now 15
District 3 ---was 9 now 10 (here Wayzata could make two “A” teams? To make it 11 at that level. I think they have multiple B and house teams which help play? They are a BIG plate of teams.
District 5 – was 12, now 13 (two St. Cloud association)
District 10 – was 21 now 13 association, but 14 if Osseo and Maple grove play separate?

Thoughts?

[elliott70]

Elliot,

Start with a Thank You to you and all past/present individuals that step up to make a difference. Always been fun having your ear and eyes on here.

Mike and his group are doing the same, trying to make a difference. Nothing wrong with it. Heck of allot of energy here.

This sure helps from a business side of making a decision that benefit everyone around the company you volunteered to help direct in a growth of the sport.

Things change in that growth and MN Hockey can change with them. That 94 corridor is busting with growth.
Just a thought or idea.

District 10 who rumbles they don’t like to travel north to Sauk Rapids and possible BOTH St. Clouds go to District 5

Could move Mora, Braham, Pine City, Cambridge, St. Francis, Princeton and North Branch go to District 2 (only has 8 associations now)

Mound is next to Orono (Orono moved to District 3 from 5) and Buffalo wants out of District 5 go to District 3.

How long till Osseo and Maple could some day be separated, I think they play separate today? Move to 10?

That would make the following associations represented in each District the following respectfully.
District 2 -- was 8, now 15
District 3 ---was 9 now 10 (here Wayzata could make two “A” teams? To make it 11 at that level. I think they have multiple B and house teams which help play? They are a BIG plate of teams.
District 5 – was 12, now 13 (two St. Cloud association)
District 10 – was 21 now 13 association, but 14 if Osseo and Maple grove play separate?

Thoughts?

My plan and presentation to the discernment committee back in November was to start with defining an association including the 'how to's'- formation, termination, splitting, and examples of how to structure board, get 501c3 status etc....
Next would be define a district with the idea that you keep them balanced in number of associations (A & B level for boys) (girls, C level, Jr gold can all be handled by league operation, as is pretty much the case know). Keep them balance competitively, strong program, mediums, and weak or new programs, and the big thing travel, also traditin and rivalries.

Once these are in place, adjustments can be looked at every two, three or four years and make changes based on what is pre-established without worry of protecting territory. It is just done.

So we are on the same wave length.

[elliott70]

And Stealth, you're welcome, but we all do what we can, I believe.

[greybeard58]

Fred,
If you chose not to believe me on the associations mentioned go to the D10 web site and contact the District Director or his assisant, I believe they will tell you the same.
Mora in D2 what a nice drive to St Mary's point.

[whockeyguy]

Outsider looking in: How can Mn Hockey prevent this- they cant , under the their by-laws which are community based and giuded by school districts as boundries , there is NO WAY to prevent this, THEY have the right to do this , as long as they get everything else required to be an affiliate for MN Hockey,
As for you people that think different, look at some of the most recent changes similar to this.
Elk River/Rogers
Anoka/ Andover
Anoka/ Champlin Park
Lakeville South, North
Osseo/ Maple Grove
Just a few to name, all were combined at one time and when the schools came along the split was made,,, only difference is that St Clouds were already in place,,, If they deny this well then throw out Mn Hockey handbook because it wont mean a thing, let the recuitment start for the all star teams{AAA} Good luck to you in your venture, i hope they have best interest of the kids in their school district, if not thye will have to live with their decessions which is their RIGHT. It their kids,
TO Mn Hockey, every body in the state is watching this one

And to the One of the last comments made here on how they will be able to compete with the Roseau and Moorheads, well they cant now and it might be that over half the kids that play A Bantams go to other schools afterwards right now, so why not devlelop your own kids that are staying at the school or dont have to go to the north side of town,,

[frederick61]

Fred,
If you chose not to believe me on the associations mentioned go to the D10 web site and contact the District Director or his assisant, I believe they will tell you the same.
Mora in D2 what a nice drive to St Mary's point.

"greybeard58", all I did was count the number of associations listed on the offical Minnesota hockey website under D10. If my count is correct, there are 22 associations listed. If the District Director has a different count, then he should correct that list prior to the start of next season.

[frederick61]

Elliott70

“Wicked” commented as follows: “Yes, I am concerned about the Cathedral kids. One of my kid's best friends is a CHS varsity player and I almost consider him a family member. I would like to see CHS, Apollo and Tech have its own teams at each level and leave it up to them to each to decide if they want to play at each level at A, B1 or whatever. But that's up to MN Hockey. We still will bring it up at the meeting for discussion.”

Can a Hockey Association split or re-form in some to accommodate a private, religious based, school? If it is allowed by Minnesota Hockey, what must that association do to assure Minnesota Hockey that the portion of the program associated with the private school is viable (community approval, available facilities, etc).

Fred
The local association can 'subdivide' and allow a team to be formed from certain groups. DAHA (Duluth) does that.
My initial comment at the first discernment committee meeting was something to that effect.
We need a definition of 'association' with verbage on how they are formed, how they are ended, how they are split and how they can accomodate diverse groups that come under their umbrella.

Hopefully, we will work on that in the upcoming meeting, though I do not see enough time allocated to us. Again hopefully, some if not all of the committee guys will be willing to work before and after our assigned time.

Feel free to come over to the meeting for some or all.

Mark

Elliott,
I agree that Duluth subdivides to allow a team to be formed, but that "subdivison" evolved from the old days starting in the late 50's with the Duluth Stewart, Duluth Zephyrs, Glen Avon, etc becoming in 2000 essentially Duluth East and Duluth Lakers. That is an example of a program maturing and evolving in the face of downsizing. And none of the subdivisions support a private school like a Duluth Marshall (or St. Cloud Cathedral) and all of the subdivisions are tied to a neighborhood.

I believe that the St. Cloud split has growth in the program that supports the idea of splitting. Given that a St. Cloud Cathedral subdivision could be created, what if anything would Minnesota Hockey have to pass on from USA hockey so that all of the other Minnesota hockey associations would not be compromised in some way?

A second question is that the obvious answer to the question above is to allow St. Cloud to form a Tier 1 organization for St. Cloud Cathedral. But then how could they compete. They would have a problem with age differences is they went with Minnesota ages competing outside the state. Could they compete in a district? Doesn't this create other problems?

[elliott70]

Elliott,
I agree that Duluth subdivides to allow a team to be formed, but that "subdivison" evolved from the old days starting in the late 50's with the Duluth Stewart, Duluth Zephyrs, Glen Avon, etc becoming in 2000 essentially Duluth East and Duluth Lakers. That is an example of a program maturing and evolving in the face of downsizing. And none of the subdivisions support a private school like a Duluth Marshall (or St. Cloud Cathedral) and all of the subdivisions are tied to a neighborhood.

Yes, I agree.

I believe that the St. Cloud split has growth in the program that supports the idea of splitting.

My initial reaction is, yes, they do; but I like to hear from all parties and review info before committing. So, I am undecided.

Given that a St. Cloud Cathedral subdivision could be created, what if anything would Minnesota Hockey have to pass on from USA hockey so that all of the other Minnesota hockey associations would not be compromised in some way?

This issue will be handled at the next meeting. It has been in the discernemtn committee since November.

A second question is that the obvious answer to the question above is to allow St. Cloud to form a Tier 1 organization for St. Cloud Cathedral. But then how could they compete. They would have a problem with age differences is they went with Minnesota ages competing outside the state. Could they compete in a district? Doesn't this create other problems?

I don't think Tier I (ala Shattuck) would work for Cathedral for a variety of reasons.
Mark

[elliott70]

Outsider looking in: How can Mn Hockey prevent this- they cant , under the their by-laws which are community based and giuded by school districts as boundries , there is NO WAY to prevent this, THEY have the right to do this , as long as they get everything else required to be an affiliate for MN Hockey,
As for you people that think different, look at some of the most recent changes similar to this.
Elk River/Rogers
Anoka/ Andover
Anoka/ Champlin Park
Lakeville South, North
Osseo/ Maple Grove
Just a few to name, all were combined at one time and when the schools came along the split was made,,, only difference is that St Clouds were already in place,,, If they deny this well then throw out Mn Hockey handbook because it wont mean a thing, let the recuitment start for the all star teams{AAA} Good luck to you in your venture, i hope they have best interest of the kids in their school district, if not thye will have to live with their decessions which is their RIGHT. It their kids,
TO Mn Hockey, every body in the state is watching this one

And to the One of the last comments made here on how they will be able to compete with the Roseau and Moorheads, well they cant now and it might be that over half the kids that play A Bantams go to other schools afterwards right now, so why not devlelop your own kids that are staying at the school or dont have to go to the north side of town,,

While true that school boundaries have shaped the formation of some local associations, that is not a guiding protocol for establishing a new association. It is a factor.

Our by-laws are very clear on how unclear this matter is: associations are community based. Just what is the definition of community based? This is a HUGE agenda item for MN Hockey and as of yet has not been clarified. Maybe the 2008 annual meeting on April 25-27 will clarify it, but I really doubt it.

However, I do believe that St Cloud, St Thomas and teh other request will be voted on and direction given to the people involved in those efforts.

[elliott70]

Fred,
If you chose not to believe me on the associations mentioned go to the D10 web site and contact the District Director or his assisant, I believe they will tell you the same.
Mora in D2 what a nice drive to St Mary's point.

"greybeard58", all I did was count the number of associations listed on the offical Minnesota hockey website under D10. If my count is correct, there are 22 associations listed. If the District Director has a different count, then he should correct that list prior to the start of next season.

Fred
While the handbook may list the associations; not all associations are active nor are all associations participating at all levels.
Thsoe associations that are not putting teams on the ice are still associations forno other reason than to assure their kids are waived into another association. If at some point in the future there is a spike in numbers they may want to run a mite or squirt program seprate form the other association for a variety of reasons.
What graybeard is telling you is that those listed do not necessarily participate across the board and therefore the 'number of associations' should be adjusted for comparison to other districts numbers. (As should other districts numbers.

That is why I proposed definng associatins and classifying them by the type of assn they are. Again for a variety of reasons.

[Neutron 14]

WHAT? No more St. Cloud in District 10?!?!?! Whose going to tell Neutron 15 that Hooters is no longer on the schedule??? Not Me!