Choice Squirt League

Tenoverpar · Post by **Tenoverpar** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:34 pm

Didn't we have this debate last summer/fall about "when does the Mite league at MM end?". When does MINNHOCK step in and put down some guidelines or is this the future? Guess we know the answer:

CHOICE LEAGUE
WINTER HOCKEY LEAGUE
A REAL CHOICE THIS WINTER FOR MITE and SQUIRT HOCKEY

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Please click on the links for full details on each league.

MITE Leagues SQUIRT League

You will need Adobe Acrobat Reader to view these files. If you don't have Adobe download the free software from this link - http://acrobat.s0ftwarez.com/

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As you already know when it comes to options for the development of your child as a hockey player during the winter season there are almost no choices. Development would depend on the strength and policies of the local association.

This may be good for some parents and players, but this is rarely a good fit for the older Mites, elite or potential elite players. This is due to very limited amount of ice time, shortage of quality coaches, lack of competition and a wide gap in ability between the top and bottom players on the same team.

CHOICE LEAGUE IS ABOUT DEVELOPMENT
Choice league is a skill based program. Each team will receive 100 hours of indoor ice for the Mites and about 145 hours of indoor ice for the Squirts. The focus will be will be on skating, edge work and stickhandling. It takes this level of ice time and high repetition to develop the fine muscle and motor skills needed to someday achieve an elite level. THE GOAL is to help prepare each player to make their A team when they return to their association.

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HOCKEY IS BEHIND
When you look at other skilled sports like gymnastics, figure skating or even the performing arts hockey is behind. These sports and the arts try and identify potential elite children at a young age and start their training early. When the athlete reaches the age of 15 they are world class or are well on their way. How do they do this? By using a focused methodology, including an incredible amount of quality repetition.

Where hockey falls short is that there is not the kind program in place for the athlete that wants to or has the potential to one day become world class. Instead, most players go along without the direction they need to have a real chance to reach their goals. Then when the players reach the age of 15, they are separated over one summer through the Select 15 program. The hope is that then they can be developed into world class players. With the right training these players could already be world class.

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No need to rely on outdoor ice.!!!!!

CHOICE LEAGUE OWNS THE RINK.
That's right! We own our own rink. All play will take place at the new Minnesota Made Ice Center. The rink is located on the border of Edina and Bloomington.

RARELY ANY SUNDAY MORNING TIMES
To make it easier for families to attend church we will rarely have any ice times that start before noon on Sundays.

DATES AND LOCATION
League starts early October and runs through mid March.
All ice times are at the Minnesota Made Ice Center

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Please click on the links for full details on each league.

MITE Leagues SQUIRT League

You will need Adobe Acrobat Reader to view these files. If you don't have Adobe download the free software from this link - http://acrobat.s0ftwarez.com/

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REGISTRATION PROCESS
1. Fill out application form from the league link above.
2. Include $400 deposit with registration
(Deposit will be refunded completely if player is not selected for league.)
3. Mail to:
Minnesota Made Hockey
7300 Bush Lake Rd
Edina, MN 55439

We invite and encourage you to call with any questions you may have.
Please call 952-746-9033

Pucknutz69 · Post by **Pucknutz69** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:49 pm

I wished he would have started this years ago, my boys are too old. Maybe he will get a Bantam league going next year.

DMom · Post by **DMom** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:04 pm

the thing that I found most interesting about the whole flyer is that they are using Minnesota Hockey birth dates. Why not go birth year if the kids end up playing that way together in the spring? I know most of parents I have met who are most dissatisifed with Minnesota Hockey, it is because their kids are being "held back" due to birth date issues. They'll have the same issues.

DMom · Post by **DMom** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:05 pm

and the second biggest complaint I have heard is that squirts don't get to play enough games. These squirts are looking at about the same amount Minnesota Hockey squirts are getting. I think the parallels stop with those two examples though.

Doglover · Post by **Doglover** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:01 pm

Most of us saw this coming last year and I hate to say we were right. The major difference in my opinion is Association Hockey with your community, is non-profit and #1 priority is all the kids. Minnesota Made is a business - no one can or would argue that point. They are in it to make money - #1 priority. Parents - it's up to you. Either buy their big promises or work with your community to improve the things you have concerns about in your own organization. Either way, you son will still end up where he belongs by HS. If he doesn't grow or doesn't have the love and passion of the game in his heart, it won't matter how much money you throw at Bernie - chances are the others will pass him up.

Neither is the wrong choice - just understand what you are doing and why you're doing it. I think MN Hockey and the association boards better stop pretending that Bernie is not a threat to our MN hockey tradition. If they don't take steps to address the issue (and part of me thinks the competition for players may only help improve our association hockey structure), they will only have themselves to blame in the end.

sorno82 · Post by **sorno82** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:34 pm

I guess the promise of 1st year squirt "a" doesn't work when you have 20 kids from the same association doing mite choice. That is my jab, but in reality, I like this option. The problem I have noticed is the number of unbalanced games during the year. If MM can keep the teams balanced and make it fun, this will be a great option for 1st year kids.

Since this is essentially a squirt "b" league, there is admission that squirt "b" is a good option for kids to develop and have fun. There is nothing wrong with "b" hockey when it comes to development, and he is proving it by establishing an alternative "b" league for first year players. I feel that those kids playing with the 2nd year players, even though they are "b" players is better for the kids, but to each his own.

In the end, it doesn't matter. The cream will rise to the top regardless if you have a couple thousand hours of ice before you are 10 or several hundred.

CoachJ · Post by **CoachJ** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:47 pm

Since this is essentially a squirt "b" league, there is admission that squirt "b" is a good option for kids to develop and have fun. There is nothing wrong with "b" hockey when it comes to development, and he is proving it by establishing an alternative "b" league for first year players. I feel that those kids playing with the 2nd year players, even though they are "b" players is better for the kids, but to each his own.

.[/quote]

Bernie is saying elite level 1st year player. Wants players that can keep up with each other. Nice way of saying not B- player. Sounds like the player he is talking about would have no problem making A-Team Already.

I think he is going after the 1st year player only so MN HOCKEY doesn't feel like a take over is taking place. Buckle up MN HOCKEY IT COULD GET BUMPY DOWN THE ROAD.

sorno82 · Post by **sorno82** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:57 pm

Not enough 1st year players who are good enough to make squirt "a" to form a league. No, this is a "b" league. Edina, EP, Minnetonka, and Wayzata first years who can make squirt "a" will, those who don't will have the choice league to fall back on since they will undoubtably feel like they were discriminated against.

Next year the promotion for squirt choice 2nd year will be that the associations will discriminate against you since you have been doing the choice league. Then he will teach first year peewees to check the right way and so on.

At least that is what I would say if I were trying to build a business for the disenfranchised-us against the world.

CoachJ · Post by **CoachJ** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:11 pm

sorno82 wrote:Not enough 1st year players who are good enough to make squirt "a" to form a league. No, this is a "b" league. Edina, EP, Minnetonka, and Wayzata first years who can make squirt "a" will, those who don't will have the choice league to fall back on since they will undoubtably feel like they were discriminated against.

Next year the promotion for squirt choice 2nd year will be that the associations will discriminate against you since you have been doing the choice league. Then he will teach first year peewees to check the right way and so on.

At least that is what I would say if I were trying to build a business for the disenfranchised-us against the world.

I guess I agree to some of the things.

Won't these players need waviers?

Tryouts are before most associations Tryouts?

I think you could get about 8 teams of Squirt A talent. Look at the super series, Elite Classic and so on . Lots of kids missing from those teams. They don't have to be the top player on there team.

Lily Braden · Post by **Lily Braden** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:24 pm

sorno82 wrote:Not enough 1st year players who are good enough to make squirt "a" to form a league. No, this is a "b" league. Edina, EP, Minnetonka, and Wayzata first years who can make squirt "a" will, those who don't will have the choice league to fall back on since they will undoubtably feel like they were discriminated against.

Next year the promotion for squirt choice 2nd year will be that the associations will discriminate against you since you have been doing the choice league. Then he will teach first year peewees to check the right way and so on.

At least that is what I would say if I were trying to build a business for the disenfranchised-us against the world.

I wonder what the impact will be on Edina? There are a ton of parents driving their kids MM during the off-season, before school, after school, choosing grinders/snipers over the usual spring leagues. I'm guessing we see an exodus of the top B players, the ones who skated with the A group until the bitter end during tryouts. Or at least, an exodus of the players whose dads and moms can afford the team.

sorno82 · Post by **sorno82** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:30 pm

You could not get 8 teams of first year players who were equivalent to squirt A. At least if you use the better associations as a measuring stick. He is marketing to these kids parents, the big D6 and D3, teams that usually only have a couple of first year "A" players. One could argue, and many have, that most of the Edina "B" players could have played "A" in some associations. That holds true of Wayzata, Minnetonka, EP and others.

I like the concept that you could even out the teams so all games are competitive with rivalries forming.

There are a lot of really talented "b" players that end up playing on these AAA teams.

I doubt you could find 120 families who would buy into this, however, if he even gets 60 families to do this, it will significantly dilute the "b" pool of players.

CoachJ · Post by **CoachJ** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:54 pm

sorno82 wrote:You could not get 8 teams of first year players who were equivalent to squirt A. At least if you use the better associations as a measuring stick. He is marketing to these kids parents, the big D6 and D3, teams that usually only have a couple of first year "A" players. One could argue, and many have, that most of the Edina "B" players could have played "A" in some associations. That holds true of Wayzata, Minnetonka, EP and others.

I like the concept that you could even out the teams so all games are competitive with rivalries forming.

There are a lot of really talented "b" players that end up playing on these AAA teams.

I doubt you could find 120 families who would buy into this, however, if he even gets 60 families to do this, it will significantly dilute the "b" pool of players.

How many Mite teams did he get?

Edina has at least 2 full Squirt B-teams that could play at A-level for other associations. Fire have 1 team at each age level. He already has 4 teams in his checkbook. This will not be a B-level league. He will get the players unless he needs waviers on all the players. Association hockey is Board member driven. I'am familar with 2 associations that my Child has played for and I have helped coach. Bernie wants to Win and get paid. Board members want Their kids to play and weed out the competition by High school. I have witnessed A-players being put on B-Teams not for bad tryouts but because coach & board didn't want to deal with parents. They want them to get mad and leave.

Bernie wants players and as long as the checks clear. I think he will make it clear that he coaches kids and the parents will have to bite the lip a little otherwise he will find a player to replace their child. Associations have to play everyone. He doesn't.

sorno82 · Post by **sorno82** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:17 am

MM made promises that the mite choice was the best way to prepare their kids for squirts. It now looks like he will take this core group of kids and have a marketing angle for every level as they move up the ladder. From a development perspective, keeping 4-8 evenly balanced teams with above average to very good players going through his system from mite -bantam may be the best way to go. If the kids keep coming back, they must be having fun. ( I think calling any 10 year old elite is off the wall)

I am all for the competition with the associations since it should wake them up and make it better for all. no more status quo if status quo is not working. I just think it is specializing too early and we do not know how these kids will feel about the program after playing hockey year round at age 13. It becomes year round since these players will do the spring/fall AAA and summer camps at MM.

It is a business, so you need to do what you have to do to succeed. I just hope that parents realize that little johnnie may be a better player at age 10 since he may have skated 2 or 3 times as much as the average kid and things may/will change when the kids hit puberty.

jancze5 · Post by **jancze5** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:21 am

I pounded this thing last fall about "when does it end?". The problem I see is that this is NOT Minnesota hockey controlled or mandated. This is a Freelance IN SEASON AAA league. That's the reality of it. It's only a matter of time before the teams in this league are "scrimmaging" local Mite or Squirt association teams. The other issue, if I'm correct in what I've been told, is that the players in this league still can/do play association hockey as well.

Hey, I'm all for MM making all the money they can while developing hockey players. I just think it's laughable that this can be pulled off right under the nose of MINNHOCK.

I guess I mine as well go in and buy all the icetime a few rinks now and start my own Showcase Winter AAA league. What's stopping me or anyone else from doing it? Understanding that MM owns it's own ice sheets, I'm pretty certain if I go into a number of rinks today and inquire about ice for next fall that I'm ready to purchase today, in mass, I'll have luck in securing time.

Maybe I can buy all the ice at the U and have the Junior Gopher Hockey League. It's central to everyone, ice is good, kids get inspired to be Gophers someday. Playoffs at the X.

DMom · Post by **DMom** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:29 am

they won't need waivers because they aren't going to another association and they are no longer members of their old association. According to USA hockey, the kids just aren't playing hockey.

It states right in the brochure that they are looking at players who will not make their A team this year. That makes them B players. Nothing wrong with B. Both of my oldest played B squirts. Made my very oldest decide he wanted to work really hard and he has made every team he has tried out since than. It's his choice though, not mine to have him work harder. These kids will miss out on that motivating factor, but MM doesn't seem to have a problem motivating kids. Argue A or B league, the fact is that by next spring the kids will be A players. It will be an interesting dilemma for those district directors if teams in nearby districts want to scrimmage the Choice teams.

To me it looks amazingly like Association hockey, in terms of number of games and age groups, etc. I do appreciate that the politics are removed from the process.

As strongly as my family supports Association hockey, we have a guy at my younger son's level that is going to make our life miserable for many years. This league may be an option for our youngest that we would find very attractive.

I used to be a believer that the "powers that be" were limiting opportunities for kids who might compete for spots with their kids. However, with the growth of quality off-season options this isn't really feasible anymore. Your kid makes it into a lock spot and all politics are gone. Might have to put in an obscene amount of hours in the off-season, but it can be done. Now that I know the "powers that be" pretty well, I gotta say that I think it just looks that way. If you follow the rules, people are positive you are trying to stop their superstar. I believe I felt that way with my oldest, and I was wrong (or more likely naive). Now that he does the work he has no problems, and amazingly the "politics" have disappeared. Or maybe they were an illusion we create to deal with the fact that our kids just aren't that good.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:33 am

jancze5 wrote:I pounded this thing last fall about "when does it end?". The problem I see is that this is NOT Minnesota hockey controlled or mandated. This is a Freelance IN SEASON AAA league. That's the reality of it. It's only a matter of time before the teams in this league are "scrimmaging" local Mite or Squirt association teams. The other issue, if I'm correct in what I've been told, is that the players in this league still can/do play association hockey as well.

Hey, I'm all for MM making all the money they can while developing hockey players. I just think it's laughable that this can be pulled off right under the nose of MINNHOCK.

I guess I mine as well go in and buy all the icetime a few rinks now and start my own Showcase Winter AAA league. What's stopping me or anyone else from doing it? Understanding that MM owns it's own ice sheets, I'm pretty certain if I go into a number of rinks today and inquire about ice for next fall that I'm ready to purchase today, in mass, I'll have luck in securing time.

Maybe I can buy all the ice at the U and have the Junior Gopher Hockey League. It's central to everyone, ice is good, kids get inspired to be Gophers someday. Playoffs at the X.

Unless something changes drastically; this will not happen soon or otherwise.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:41 am

elliott70 wrote:
jancze5 wrote:I pounded this thing last fall about "when does it end?". The problem I see is that this is NOT Minnesota hockey controlled or mandated. This is a Freelance IN SEASON AAA league. That's the reality of it. It's only a matter of time before the teams in this league are "scrimmaging" local Mite or Squirt association teams. The other issue, if I'm correct in what I've been told, is that the players in this league still can/do play association hockey as well.

Yes, they are eligible. They are getting extra hockey through a private vendor. They are not participating in another sanctioned association.

Hey, I'm all for MM making all the money they can while developing hockey players. I just think it's laughable that this can be pulled off right under the nose of MINNHOCK.

I guess I mine as well go in and buy all the icetime a few rinks now and start my own Showcase Winter AAA league. What's stopping me or anyone else from doing it? Understanding that MM owns it's own ice sheets, I'm pretty certain if I go into a number of rinks today and inquire about ice for next fall that I'm ready to purchase today, in mass, I'll have luck in securing time.

Maybe I can buy all the ice at the U and have the Junior Gopher Hockey League. It's central to everyone, ice is good, kids get inspired to be Gophers someday. Playoffs at the X.
Unless something changes drastically; this will not happen soon or otherwise.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:47 am

jancze5 wrote:I pounded this thing last fall about "when does it end?". The problem I see is that this is NOT Minnesota hockey controlled or mandated. This is a Freelance IN SEASON AAA league. That's the reality of it. It's only a matter of time before the teams in this league are "scrimmaging" local Mite or Squirt association teams. The other issue, if I'm correct in what I've been told, is that the players in this league still can/do play association hockey as well.

Hey, I'm all for MM making all the money they can while developing hockey players. I just think it's laughable that this can be pulled off right under the nose of MINNHOCK.

Pull what off? It is similar, and too a larger degree, than Acceleration and all the other programs out there selling and trying to make a buck to hockey parents/players or other sports. Its the good old USA.
And MN Hockey has talked with Bernie. MM investors have taken a large risk in building their site. They need to attract people to use it. they need to generate revenue. They have a good marketing theme and are not going to stop unless they do not get enough and then they will have to sell.

I guess I mine as well go in and buy all the icetime a few rinks now and start my own Showcase Winter AAA league. What's stopping me or anyone else from doing it? Understanding that MM owns it's own ice sheets, I'm pretty certain if I go into a number of rinks today and inquire about ice for next fall that I'm ready to purchase today, in mass, I'll have luck in securing time.

Maybe I can buy all the ice at the U and have the Junior Gopher Hockey League. It's central to everyone, ice is good, kids get inspired to be Gophers someday. Playoffs at the X.

zboni99 · Post by **zboni99** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:34 am

I think Bernie will get a lot of kids for this league. What's not to like? All the ice is at the same place and they probably get good hours. I'd love to go to the same rink all the time instead of driving all over the metro for ice. I hope a lot of Edina squirts join the league and free up more ice at Braemar. It's not like MM sells good ice time to the EHA. There are only so many spots on the A team. What they won't be able to do is play any teams sanctioned by USA hockey because they are not sanctioned by USA hockey. I suppose they could go to Canada for a tournament. When Bernie gets the USA hockey sanction then he will be able to form a club team and keep kids in the system. I hope he gets it soon.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:51 am

zboni99 wrote:I think Bernie will get a lot of kids for this league. What's not to like? All the ice is at the same place and they probably get good hours. I'd love to go to the same rink all the time instead of driving all over the metro for ice. I hope a lot of Edina squirts join the league and free up more ice at Braemar. It's not like MM sells good ice time to the EHA. There are only so many spots on the A team. What they won't be able to do is play any teams sanctioned by USA hockey because they are not sanctioned by USA hockey. I suppose they could go to Canada for a tournament.

CAHA follows the same rules as USA Hockey. They will need a travel permit to play in Canadian tournaments issued by USA Hockey.

When Bernie gets the USA hockey sanction then he will be able to form a club team and keep kids in the system. I hope he gets it soon.

Why would you think he will get a USA Hockey sanction?

zboni99 · Post by **zboni99** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:06 am

I just think it is enevitable that's all. Wasn't there a thread about Bernie joining MN hockey? If he does, don't you think he will have some sort of personal agenda. On another thread I read Watchdog, a supporter of community hockey, saying what a fine organization the Fire was. Maybe that was tongue-n-cheek and I missed it? Didn't know about Canada just threw that out there. You learn something new everyday.

hockey_is_a_choice · Post by **hockey_is_a_choice** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:41 am

Minnesota Hockey is political, but, from a legal perspective, there is no way that Minnesota Hockey can stop Bernie's programs. This is America folks. Capitalism built this country and anyone who has a product or service that is legal should be able to compete with another product, service or organization. Frankly, I have wondered whether Minnesota Hockey can be legitimately sued for antitrust violations or religious discrimination, especially concerning its strict limitations on whether an organization (school, church or some other entity) is allowed to become a Minnesota Hockey affiliate.

Personally, I wish my son could leave his association and skate for Bernie. He missed the cut-off by a couple of months. This one size fits all approach to hockey in Minnesota makes no sense to me. As parents we decide where our kids go to school and church. We decide which doctor and dentist they see. We decide who teaches them how to play piano. Why shouldn't we be able to decide where our kids play hockey and for whom? You should not be forced to sell your house and move to another "community" because you are stuck playing for an association that doesn't share your hockey philosophy.

Although I don't agree with all of Bernie's practices, hats off to him for having the courage to take the risk to build his own business, rink and leagues. Bernie offers a different approach. If you don't like his approach, don't send your kids to his programs. I, however, will exercise my right as my son's parent to choose Bernie's programs over our local association's programs whenever possible.

Further, I will happily continue to write checks to MM. Bernie is not an indentured servant. Like all of us, Bernie is entitled to earn a living. Bernie should be applauded for being a smart, creative businessman, not maligned for figuring out that there are many families who want a choice and are willing to pay for that choice.

mnticketbroker · Post by **mnticketbroker** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:46 am

I would believe most of the league members would join after not being selected to their local association A team. Possibly enough for one full team just from one association very near to MnMade.

The MnMade squirt league would probably start before association tryouts. So do you think BMcBN will allow kids to sign up after not making A? Until the results are in, ( and happy customers) I don't see kids leaving large associations to do this pre tryouts. Perhaps he will get the top players at smaller associations or weaker teams to leave.

It looks like his mite program is doubling in size this year with two groups, last year mites, and 2nd to last year mites.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:49 am

zboni99 wrote:I just think it is enevitable that's all. Wasn't there a thread about Bernie joining MN hockey? If he does, don't you think he will have some sort of personal agenda. On another thread I read Watchdog, a supporter of community hockey, saying what a fine organization the Fire was. Maybe that was tongue-n-cheek and I missed it? Didn't know about Canada just threw that out there. You learn something new everyday.

I don't think Bernie really wants to join right now.
Yes, he has a personal agenda. He is running a business. Nothing wrong with that and usually to be successful you have to have happy customers, so I think the kids have protection in that regared.

No, watchdog has true admiration for the Fire, as do a lot of people.
But the Fire and MM are two separate concepts.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:54 am

hockey_is_a_choice wrote:Minnesota Hockey is political, but, from a legal perspective, there is no way that Minnesota Hockey can stop Bernie's programs. This is America folks. Capitalism built this country and anyone who has a product or service that is legal should be able to compete with another product, service or organization. Frankly, I have wondered whether Minnesota Hockey can be legitimately sued for antitrust violations or religious discrimination, especially concerning its strict limitations on whether an organization (school, church or some other entity) is allowed to become a Minnesota Hockey affiliate.

Personally, I wish my son could leave his association and skate for Bernie. He missed the cut-off by a couple of months. This one size fits all approach to hockey in Minnesota makes no sense to me. As parents we decide where our kids go to school and church. We decide which doctor and dentist they see. We decide who teaches them how to play piano. Why shouldn't we be able to decide where our kids play hockey and for whom? You should not be forced to sell your house and move to another "community" because you are stuck playing for an association that doesn't share your hockey philosophy.

Although I don't agree with all of Bernie's practices, hats off to him for having the courage to take the risk to build his own business, rink and leagues. Bernie offers a different approach. If you don't like his approach, don't send your kids to his programs. I, however, will exercise my right as my son's parent to choose Bernie's programs over our local association's programs whenever possible.

Further, I will happily continue to write checks to MM. Bernie is not an indentured servant. Like all of us, Bernie is entitled to earn a living. Bernie should be applauded for being a smart, creative businessman, not maligned for figuring out that there are many families who want a choice and are willing to pay for that choice.

Why do people think MN Hockey is trying to stop MM?
It has never been on the bopard's agenda. Discussion, both casual and in committee has never spoke to that. A lot of the board members admire Bernie for doing a good job with hockey.

But association hockey was developed to bring hockey to all. No those that can afford it, not just the elite player.

MN Hockey has to do more to make local associations better at developing all players, reducing (or at leat maintaining) costs, recruiting and retaining players. To this end we have not progressed into the 21st century. We need to do better.

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