Hockey and Football overlapping

[muckandgrind]

And yes, hockey has generally started in September for as long as I can remember (and as long as there were indoor rinks). People seem to think the seson gets longer and longer every season, it doesn't. If you don't believe me, stroll over to Phalen Arena is St. Paul and look at the photo of the 1982-1983 Johnson A Bantam Team. Their record that season was 75-5-1. If they didn't start skating until November, their season would have went unto May or June. I played youth hockey in the early and mid 70's and we started skating in mid to late September every year, and there were the same conflicts with football even back then. This is nothing new.

I think you just illustrated the problem, quite well, Muck.
Perhaps Bantam's shouldn't be playing 81 freaking games, on the season!!??
High schools typically don't start skating, as a team, until November. Why should Bantams be any different?
Overlaps seem to be occuring more and more, between seasons, across most sports. It is really too bad that some kids have to choose between sports to accomodate this.
There is little to no coordination, anywhere, between associations, schools, and park and rec administrations, to help mitigate these issues. Each one of them seems to believe they take priority.

Like I said before, our hockey association gave advance warning to the football program as to what dates the tryouts would be held and the football program ignored them. Whose fault is that? Not the hockey program.

One way to avoid any conflict is to hold tryouts and the end of the previous season instead of the beginning of the current season.

As far as playing 81 games. That's pretty rare nowadays, but it just proves the point that playing lots of games is not something new. It has been going on for quite some time. Some people always like to claim that kids are playing more games and practicing less these days, which is a completely bogus statement.

[WayOutWest]

Like I said before, our hockey association gave advance warning to the football program as to what dates the tryouts would be held and the football program ignored them. Whose fault is that? Not the hockey program.

Oh, I might not be quite so fast to lay blame on the football program.
Your tryouts were when? September? That's prime football season, and you cannot expect the football program to adapt to you just because you provided dates to them. At what point would it become ridiculous that hockey is even approaching other sports programs for such? July? September may be ridiculous enough, such that it is merely laughed off.
Surely, you'd like to see all programs cooperate on such things, but if hockey is going to start looking for dates in September, that is going to be a tough row to hoe.

[muckandgrind]

Like I said before, our hockey association gave advance warning to the football program as to what dates the tryouts would be held and the football program ignored them. Whose fault is that? Not the hockey program.

Oh, I might not be quite so fast to lay blame on the football program.
Your tryouts were when? September? That's prime football season, and you cannot expect the football program to adapt to you just because you provided dates to them. At what point would it become ridiculous that hockey is even approaching other sports programs for such? July? September may be ridiculous enough, such that it is merely laughed off.
Surely, you'd like to see all programs cooperate on such things, but if hockey is going to start looking for dates in September, that is going to be a tough row to hoe.

If I sound like I'm repeating myself, I'm sorry....but Hockey starting in September is NOTHING NEW!!!!!! It's been starting in September for as long as I can recall. Football is only shooting themselves in the foot for not accomodating as players WILL skill football to go to tryouts, they always do.

[WayOutWest]

If I sound like I'm repeating myself, I'm sorry....but Hockey starting in September is NOTHING NEW!!!!!! It's been starting in September for as long as I can recall. Football is only shooting themselves in the foot for not accomodating as players WILL skill football to go to tryouts, they always do.

You ARE repeating yourself. And, unfortunately, your point isn't making any more sense with each time you lay it out there.
Youth hockey does frequently start in September. It will go through March. That's up to seven months. Why on earth would a youth sports season need to be that long?
Youth football seasons are frequently less than half that length. Somehow, prime football athletes are still produced. How DOES that happen?
Still, you think football organizations should adjust to accommodate hockey association dates. How very odd. How about having hockey associations start the cooperation by shortening their season's by a month or two? Maybe then, football organizations would begin to take them seriously?
Overlapping seasons do not solely affect a single sport, Muck. It isn't a benefit to either.

[goldy313]

Muck, you need to get a grip. Football is a fall sport, it always has been a fall sport. Hockey is a winter sport that has moved to a year around sport. You gave football notice when yor trypouts were and since fotball didn't move their season that's their fault? That's awfully presumptious of you, what next Christmas should move because it takes up time in December when kids should be practicing?

Hockey is shooting itself in the foot, not the other way around, all hockey does is further hurt itself and its popularity by continuing this presumptious attitude that is the end all of sports, this our way or the highway attitude is wrong.

[hocmom]

I would love the hockey season to start a bit latter. I don't know if it is the same in the whole state, but here in District 4 the time frame is pretty much mandated by the district.

This year the team registration meetings were held on 10/29 and 10/30. At these meetings you have your rosters certified. You really have to have tryouts a week or so in front of this in order to get the paperwork done.

I think moving youth tryouts to AFTER high school tryouts would be the best idea. In smaller associations it is even hard to know if you will field one or two bantam teams until after the high school team is set. If you have 50 or 60 bantams this is never an issue. Imagine having 24 total and not knowing if 2 or 3 will end up at high school 3 weeks AFTER bantam tryouts?

Because district play starts on the 1st of November in District 4 they want to know how many teams and at what level they are playing by mid October. I would like to see District play start December 1.

[muckandgrind]

If I sound like I'm repeating myself, I'm sorry....but Hockey starting in September is NOTHING NEW!!!!!! It's been starting in September for as long as I can recall. Football is only shooting themselves in the foot for not accomodating as players WILL skill football to go to tryouts, they always do.

You ARE repeating yourself. And, unfortunately, your point isn't making any more sense with each time you lay it out there.
Youth hockey does frequently start in September. It will go through March. That's up to seven months. Why on earth would a youth sports season need to be that long?
Youth football seasons are frequently less than half that length. Somehow, prime football athletes are still produced. How DOES that happen?
Still, you think football organizations should adjust to accommodate hockey association dates. How very odd. How about having hockey associations start the cooperation by shortening their season's by a month or two? Maybe then, football organizations would begin to take them seriously?
Overlapping seasons do not solely affect a single sport, Muck. It isn't a benefit to either.

Like I said, the current format is nothing new...why should hockey shorten it's season to accomodate the few over the many? No matter how much you bang your head against the wall, things will not change. It's been this way for years and it will always be this way.

You ask why should football change to accomodate hockey? Simple answer, it's much simpler to adjust the date or time of a football practice than switching an hour of ice. You can hold football practice just about anywhere...

Besides, we are only talking about a month overlap, tops. Players may have to miss a football practice or game to attend a hockey tryout. Big freakin' deal or vice versa, a player might have to miss a hockey practice to attend a fotball game. Most tems don't start their district schedules until November anyways. There is a little bit of a juggle there, but big deal. We are always having to juggle things. Homework, band concerts, family trips, sports...

And whoever said hockey is a "winter sport" has it wrong. Basketball and soccer play year round, so does hockey. You can play baseball from April - October now as well.

[WayOutWest]

You ask why should football change to accomodate hockey? Simple answer, it's much simpler to adjust the date or time of a football practice than switching an hour of ice. You can hold football practice just about anywhere...

Now you're just making it worse.........for yourself.

[keep skating]

The reason hockey has to start early in alot of programs is because of ice time. Once high school girls and boys start, alot of ice is not there for the youth anymore. Communication between the football and hockey is the key. Have the hockey tryouts later on Sat. or Sun. can avoid the conflict alot. Let the youth girls tryout on Sat. morning or when the football times are. If football is on certain dates its usually not a problem. Just my two cents

[WayOutWest]

The reason hockey has to start early in alot of programs is because of ice time. Once high school girls and boys start, alot of ice is not there for the youth anymore.

That might be true in some cases, but it is not in most. In most associations, youth programs still find a way to log plenty of ice time, games and practices, October-March. They may have more competition for ice time once high schools kick in, but that doesn't stop them from finding it...............at whatever hour of the day or night.

Have the hockey tryouts later on Sat. or Sun. can avoid the conflict alot. Let the youth girls tryout on Sat. morning or when the football times are. If football is on certain dates its usually not a problem. Just my two cents

Great ideas. Cooperation between sports programs would be ideal. It's rather odd that it rarely occurs, however. I think there may be a bit too much of a narcissistic attitude going on, with most programs. That's unfortunate.

[muckandgrind]

You ask why should football change to accomodate hockey? Simple answer, it's much simpler to adjust the date or time of a football practice than switching an hour of ice. You can hold football practice just about anywhere...

Now you're just making it worse.........for yourself.

Have you ever had the job of trying to reschedule ice times? I have, and it ain't easy. Much harder than moving a football practice from this park, to that park.

I don't see why the football program can't factor in the hockey tryout schedules when they set up their football schedules? Is it that difficult to do? Instead of complaining about kids missing football practice, or threatening to bench them if they choose to go to hockey over football...adjust the schedule to allow them to do both.

I also don't have a problem with the hockey association scheduling tryouts around football IF the football program has their schedules done first and send them to the people scheduling ice. However, it seems to me that ice is usually scheduled before football practices are.

[goldy313]

Have you ever had the job of trying to reschedule ice times? I have, and it ain't easy. Much harder than moving a football practice from this park, to that park. .

Do you have pull with the rotation of the Earth? Because I sure don't and it's a bugger trying to make that darn sun stay up longer so I can run my football practice until 10 pm so those hockey players can have their precious primetime ice at 6 or 7.

You really have a hard time with this don't you? School goes until a set time, at best football practice can start at 4 but because most coaches have jobs 5 is about the best we can do, we're volunteers after all. By mid September it's dark by 7:30, by the end of September it's prior to 7:00.

Your argument is flawed, moving practice from one place to another is easy, all you need is a patch of grass, getting the daylight is the bigger issue. That's the problem, football's schedule is done first and it's set years in advance, in fact I can tell you when the sun is going set on any given day for the next 100 years. Anyone doing ice scheduling can figure it out as well, it's not that hard.

[WayOutWest]

I also don't have a problem with the hockey association scheduling tryouts around football IF the football program has their schedules done first and send them to the people scheduling ice. However, it seems to me that ice is usually scheduled before football practices are.

I am quite sure that most football folks would be more than happy to tell you when football practices are scheduled. Expect M-F, after school, until 5 or 6 p.m..............annually...............mid-August-ish, through mid November, at most. (with some playoff success.) That's truly a modest time period (three months), and a reasonable time allotment, for a sport that is in its prime season.
Feel free to pass that information around the ice time scheduling circles.
Your argument is akin to football organizers complaining about conflicts with the baseball schedules..........in June.

You understand that, don't y.............uh..............never mind.

[muckandgrind]

I also don't have a problem with the hockey association scheduling tryouts around football IF the football program has their schedules done first and send them to the people scheduling ice. However, it seems to me that ice is usually scheduled before football practices are.

I am quite sure that most football folks would be more than happy to tell you when football practices are scheduled. Expect M-F, after school, until 5 or 6 p.m..............annually...............mid-August-ish, through mid November, at most. (with some playoff success.) That's truly a modest time period (three months), and a reasonable time allotment, for a sport that is in its prime season.
Feel free to pass that information around the ice time scheduling circles.
Your argument is akin to football organizers complaining about conflicts with the baseball schedules..........in June.

You understand that, don't y.............uh..............never mind.

The problem with that is most kids that I know who play football don't play every day, and also another flaw in that is that the kids, especially the younger kids generally HAVE to skate in the early evening: Squirts (5:30 - 6:30, Pee Wees 7:40 - 8:40, Bantam 8:50 - 9:50). Generally, they don't schedule 9 and 10 year olds to skate the late hours (for obvious reasons).

It looks to me as if the football people are the ones being the most stubborn here and don't want to work with the hockey people.

Let's face it...this is the way it is and this is the way it always will be. Is there really any use in complaining about it? Do you REALLY think that all this b!tching and moaning will somehow shorten the hockey season so a couple of kids don't have to choose between hockey tryouts and football practice? I don't think so.

[WayOutWest]

The problem with that is most kids that I know who play football don't play every day, and also another flaw in that is that the kids, especially the younger kids generally HAVE to skate in the early evening: Squirts (5:30 - 6:30, Pee Wees 7:40 - 8:40, Bantam 8:50 - 9:50). Generally, they don't schedule 9 and 10 year olds to skate the late hours (for obvious reasons).

It looks to me as if the football people are the ones being the most stubborn here and don't want to work with the hockey people.

Dude...........there are spring sports, summer sports, fall sports and winters sports. Football is a fall sport. Hockey has traditionally been a winter sport. I think football sticks to it's side of the bargain by keeping football pretty much within its parameters..........Fall...........predominantly Late August (at the earliest) September, October, and perhaps some of November.
If each season is approximately 3 months, and hockey goes for 6-7, how does that work for ya? You are going to have possible overlaps on BOTH ends of that stretch. That "extended season" thing is predominantly a hockey thing. Now, that's fine, but hockey organizers have to go into their season realizing these overlaps will exist, and be okay with them, or they are just setting themselves up for aggravation. It makes NO sense to whine about a 3 month sport overlapping with your 7 month sport.
The losers in this whole problem are the kids. I am sure that most kids don't want to miss a tryout or a practice in either sport. Yet, the organizers set up the situation for them to do so.
Absolutely, there should be some cooperation between sports, but if you were an unbiased judge looking at the situation, there is no way you are deciding in favor of hockey.

[muckandgrind]

The problem with that is most kids that I know who play football don't play every day, and also another flaw in that is that the kids, especially the younger kids generally HAVE to skate in the early evening: Squirts (5:30 - 6:30, Pee Wees 7:40 - 8:40, Bantam 8:50 - 9:50). Generally, they don't schedule 9 and 10 year olds to skate the late hours (for obvious reasons).

It looks to me as if the football people are the ones being the most stubborn here and don't want to work with the hockey people.

Dude...........there are spring sports, summer sports, fall sports and winters sports. Football is a fall sport. Hockey has traditionally been a winter sport. I think football sticks to it's side of the bargain by keeping football pretty much within its parameters..........Fall...........predominantly Late August (at the earliest) September, October, and perhaps some of November.
If each season is approximately 3 months, and hockey goes for 6-7, how does that work for ya? You are going to have possible overlaps on BOTH ends of that stretch. That "extended season" thing is predominantly a hockey thing. Now, that's fine, but hockey organizers have to go into their season realizing these overlaps will exist, and be okay with them, or they are just setting themselves up for aggravation. It makes NO sense to whine about a 3 month sport overlapping with your 7 month sport.
The losers in this whole problem are the kids. I am sure that most kids don't want to miss a tryout or a practice in either sport. Yet, the organizers set up the situation for them to do so.
Absolutely, there should be some cooperation between sports, but if you were an unbiased judge looking at the situation, there is no way you are deciding in favor of hockey.

Dude...since when? Maybe in the days when hockey was only played outdoors....

I'm not sure where you grew up, but where I grew up, hockey as always started around mid-to-late September. I've NEVER heard of a hockey association in Minnesota waiting until November to kick off the season.

You're acting as if the overlapping of seasons is something new....IT'S NOT!!! And it's not unique to football and hockey. Our local baseball association has their tryouts in February, when hockey is still going on.

And another thing, most hockey coaches are usually ok with kids missing hockey practice to attend football. I've never heard of a kid being punished for that reason. The only dates they are required to be there is for the tryouts. Usually, football ends before the games start.

[WayOutWest]

Dude...since when? Maybe in the days when hockey was only played outdoors....

I'm not sure where you grew up, but where I grew up, hockey as always started around mid-to-late September. I've NEVER heard of a hockey association in Minnesota waiting until November to kick off the season.

You're acting as if the overlapping of seasons is something new....IT'S NOT!!!

Do you find it the least bit ironic that you are posting this on a HighSchoolHockey Forum? When does high school hockey begin? Mid-November, Skippy.
Now perhaps the youth programs have started well before that, in the past couple of decades, but they haven't "always been that way." It was a mere generation ago when indoor rinks were far less common, and youth hockey was predominantly played outdoors.
The question really is "why do they now HAVE to begin in September?" How is it that high school programs can begin in mid-November and still achieve success? Weird, huh?
If you want to avoid overlaps, cutting hockey back to a more reasonable schedule is the obvious fix.

[muckandgrind]

Dude...since when? Maybe in the days when hockey was only played outdoors....

I'm not sure where you grew up, but where I grew up, hockey as always started around mid-to-late September. I've NEVER heard of a hockey association in Minnesota waiting until November to kick off the season.

You're acting as if the overlapping of seasons is something new....IT'S NOT!!!

Do you find it the least bit ironic that you are posting this on a HighSchoolHockey Forum? When does high school hockey begin? Mid-November, Skippy.
Now perhaps the youth programs have started well before that, in the past couple of decades, but they haven't "always been that way." It was a mere generation ago when indoor rinks were far less common, and youth hockey was predominantly played outdoors.
The question really is "why do they now HAVE to begin in September?" How is it that high school programs can begin in mid-November and still achieve success? Weird, huh?
If you want to avoid overlaps, cutting hockey back to a more reasonable schedule is the obvious fix.

This is the Minnesota YOUTH Hockey category, Skippy.

You're not seriously trying to say the HS teams don't start skating until mid-November, are you??? I hope you aren't THAT dense. Theire tryouts might not be until mid-November, but they are certainly skating together in September and October, not to mention the STPs.

[WayOutWest]

You're not seriously trying to say the HS teams don't start skating until mid-November, are you??? I hope you aren't THAT dense. Theire tryouts might not be until mid-November, but they are certainly skating together in September and October, not to mention the STPs.

Captain's practices don't even start until November, and those are highly unorganized, Muck. Everything prior to that is entirely optional and skipped by a good percentage of players.
How DO they manage?

[muckandgrind]

You're not seriously trying to say the HS teams don't start skating until mid-November, are you??? I hope you aren't THAT dense. Theire tryouts might not be until mid-November, but they are certainly skating together in September and October, not to mention the STPs.

Captain's practices don't even start until November, and those are highly unorganized, Muck. Everything prior to that is entirely optional and skipped by a good percentage of players.
How DO they manage?

Wrong again......our local HS started their skates in September....September 14th (to be exact). Captain practices started in mid-October. And while they aren't mandatory (although just about every player is there), neither are Squirt and PeeWee practices when a kid has a conflict with football.

Again, I just don't get what you are bitching about. The percentage of players that play both football and hockey is pretty small, yet, you want to delay the start of the hockey season for everyone just so a couple of kids aren't forced to choose? Seems like a pretty weak argument to me, especially when those 1 or 2 kids are more often than not free to miss hockey practice to attend football anyways. Like I've said before, I've never seen a kid punished for missing hockey practice for football. They are only required to show up for tryouts which is about 4-5 hours max over a week or two. Big freakin' deal.

Would you also want to make it mandatory that there not be hockey on nights where kids have confirmation and band/choir concerts?

There are always going to scheduling conflicts no matter what, whether it be football, fall baseball, school and family activities, etc. That's just part a part of life.

[Night Train]

Our Association doesn't penalize kids for missing a hockey tryout session, or two, with a good excuse. A football game, not practice, would be considered a good reason. Do you want to miss a hockey tryout session? No. But the players tryout score isn't reduced for not being there. Tough to post a better score not being there but the score isn't reduced.

[muckandgrind]

Our Association doesn't penalize kids for missing a hockey tryout session, or two, with a good excuse. A football game, not practice, would be considered a good reason. Do you want to miss a hockey tryout session? No. But the players tryout score isn't reduced for not being there. Tough to post a better score not being there but the score isn't reduced.

That's the case with our association also. In fact, we had Bantam age players miss a tryout because they wanted to attend the HS homecoming football game (they didn't even play football) and they still ended up making the A team.

[guilford]

Maybe we just hit on the real issue - not all associations give players a "free pass" during try-outs if they have a football conflict. Many players do have to choose between going to hockey try-outs or their football game. Given that our football teams only play 8 games the entire season, missing one or two is a big deal. When you factor in that these are often the best players, the football team really suffers and the kid feels awful about letting his football team down, but what choice does he have? Missing one football game versus being on a B hockey team for 6-7 months when he really is an A players. And believe me, that is a reality in our association and probably others.

[muckandgrind]

Maybe we just hit on the real issue - not all associations give players a "free pass" during try-outs if they have a football conflict. Many players do have to choose between going to hockey try-outs or their football game. Given that our football teams only play 8 games the entire season, missing one or two is a big deal. When you factor in that these are often the best players, the football team really suffers and the kid feels awful about letting his football team down, but what choice does he have? Missing one football game versus being on a B hockey team for 6-7 months when he really is an A players. And believe me, that is a reality in our association and probably others.

I guess what I would suggest is that you raise some holy hell at the next board meeting and get things changed for next year. If you are holding 5 tryout sessions, missing 1 for football shouldn't negatively impact that players chances. I mean, what if a player has to miss because he is sick? Is he penalized for that?

[guilford]

Maybe we just hit on the real issue - not all associations give players a "free pass" during try-outs if they have a football conflict. Many players do have to choose between going to hockey try-outs or their football game. Given that our football teams only play 8 games the entire season, missing one or two is a big deal. When you factor in that these are often the best players, the football team really suffers and the kid feels awful about letting his football team down, but what choice does he have? Missing one football game versus being on a B hockey team for 6-7 months when he really is an A players. And believe me, that is a reality in our association and probably others.

I guess what I would suggest is that you raise some holy hell at the next board meeting and get things changed for next year. If you are holding 5 tryout sessions, missing 1 for football shouldn't negatively impact that players chances. I mean, what if a player has to miss because he is sick? Is he penalized for that?

If someone is sick, they must have proof of blood from the left pinky of their pediatrician to get a pass.
Several of us have tried for years to get the hockey board to change their ways, but some of them still think that hockey is God's gift to mankind, even though their own kids also play football. Maybe letting them know that other associations give kids a fee pass would help, i don't know. It's worth a try.