MSHL eligibility after drinking

[aceinthehole]

I'm not at all saying 2nd chances aren't a good thing. The part of the human brain that thinks through consequences of one's actions isn't fully developed until around age 25; just about every high school student, athlete or not, will screw up in some way or another. 2nd chances are a must. What I am saying is that the athlete's ability shouldn't be a factor in their punishment. If anything, it should make the penalty worse to set an example.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying the 1st liner who gets caught drinking (which is holding him back from being even better, and is breaking a rule) should have a lesser punishment than the 4th liner who gets caught drinking because he is more of an asset to the team? Maybe on a professional team if everyone is okay with it while it is purely their job to win, but in high school that is different. If the punishments aren't going to be equal, I say have the 1st liner's be worse to set an example and hopefully prevent it from happening in the future. If the consequences are clear to the students, then the 1st liner made a much bigger mistake as they are affecting their whole team, not just them, while the 4th liner is only negatively affecting them and probably helping someone else, in giving someone else a chance to play up.

no not at all im not saying having a lesser punishment but i am saying that the 4th liner could be cut from the team if for example he is a senior or late in the year junior who cannot develop anymore only because there is more risk than the reward....i think its a catch 22 i know what your talking about happens more often than not where a firsrt liner is caught doing whatever and the punishment is harsher than that of somone of lesser status and it makes sense.....its a really touchy issue and could go either way depending on all the variables.. In this case the question is should it be fair for the player to resume his spot on the team at someone elses expense after he completes his consequence.

My answer is no its not fair... if the coach has him remain captain on the team that is bs..but other than than what do you complain about its not fair to the kid who gets sent back to jv as it sounds was the case...its sad for that kid but really there is nothing you can do as a parent if you complain you will really make matters worse...if you take the high road it will be better off for the kid in the long run if he is a soph or freshman if he is a jr or sr on jv that really sucks and i would almost consider taking my kid out of that assoc just because he probably wouldnt want to play anymore

[Visa]

but one question remains.... how fair do you think it is that the athlete that gets caught gets his same spot back? The kid who fills in because he or she was an idiot gets dumped.

I do believe in 2nd chances - and kids will make mistakes... but part of that I think should be the bump down to JV, loosing their captain status etc.

Not sure how fair it is but it becomes up to the coach at that point. As the previous post wrote: The coach can extend the punishment but not cut it short. In my area the coach here has done just that....

[Papa Bergundy]

I think after one you are done! zero tolerance!
You have your whole life to drink. Wait!!

Which leads perfectly into my next point. Rochester in fact doesn't have the harshest punishment.

Those darned Wayzata Trojans do. Zero tolerance, meaning one chemical offense in season and you are done.

But onward, cause I love this topic and feel very strongly about it. And I disagree alot with upset dad.

"You are right about my kid getting extra time in while the others are at AA - or while they are in jail for a minor."
Jail time for a minor, really?

Kids who wanna have a good time every once in a while? You have to equate that to chemicals?This is not someone from a redneck show, read a Health book before you say that. Don't "turn the other cheek" and dismiss the fact that drugs and alchohol are damn near an epidemic right now. The majority, and this is factual, of high school students try drugs or alchohol prior to graduation. So we're all happy and proud your little Jimmy didn't, but this is reality this is high school.

to answer a future question you're sure to ask in your future profession young man - yes, I would like fries with that.
So kids who "have a few beers on saturday nights" are limited to jobs at fast food restaraunts? You're trying to show maturity on these issues but argue like a child

And no, my kid is obviously not as talented as the trouble maker (or two) on our team...
you already proved your coaches point for him. He sits out two weeks, and comes back. He did his time so now it's time for the coach to put the best team on the ice. If the bad behaivor persists, maybe your kid will see the varsity ice, but no sense in punishing the kid twice by making him sit then play JV. That makes no sense.

how fair do you think it is that the athlete that gets caught gets his same spot back? The kid who fills in because he or she was an idiot gets dumpedHe or She is not getting dumped, they are getting put on the team they made. Again the kid did his time so let him play. Criminals do there time and we let them live. Actually, the gov't usually has a program to help them get back on there feet. So coaches should be doing extra work with this student to get him back up to speed.

In conclusion, this is how I feel, but it really is on a case to case basis. If the kid learns his lesson, which some kids do and some don't, then it should be handled accordingly. But a kid shouldn't lose his spot on a team over a few beers on a Saturday night. Unless it's alot of beers on a Monday morning.

[Visa]

I did not say that Rochester School District was the harshest in the state. I do not know all the MN school districts policies. What I said was it is more severe than the MSHL.

[GoldThorpe]

What if the player was a goalie on the Varsity squad? Would or should the coach view this issue differently even if the the player abused the guidelines set forth multiple times? This would have an adverse effect on the entire team if the player was the best option in goal for the HS coach and the team to win.

Much different than if the player was a 4th line player or bubble kid - should there be special circumstances? A sweep under the rug approach...

Personally, I don't think so...rules are rules and coaches should be mandated to follow them as MHSL has established the guidelines. If a head coach does not follow them and establishes special circumstantial treatment for any player should be held accountable themselves. I respect the head coaches that understand that punishment needs to be established for ALL players no matter what their ability or position on the team. Kudos to the coaches that establish even stronger NO TOLERANCE policies within their programs and have enough backbone to actually follow through with each and every player that is not responsible to the team and their goals.

[Visa]

What if the player was a goalie on the Varsity squad? Would or should the coach view this issue differently even if the the player abused the guidelines set forth multiple times? This would have an adverse effect on the entire team if the player was the best option in goal for the HS coach and the team to win.

Much different than if the player was a 4th line player or bubble kid - should there be special circumstances? A sweep under the rug approach...

Personally, I don't think so...rules are rules and coaches should be mandated to follow them as MHSL has established the guidelines. If a head coach does not follow them and establishes special circumstantial treatment for any player should be held accountable themselves. I respect the head coaches that understand that punishment needs to be established for ALL players no matter what their ability or position on the team. Kudos to the coaches that establish even stronger NO TOLERANCE policies within their programs and have enough backbone to actually follow through with each and every player that is not responsible to the team and their goals.

The coach has to adhere to the MSHL rules and impose those rules, no exceptions. In your senerio, multiple offenses, do you mean two or three times? At this point based on the MSHL a third offense the player would have to sit out 12 games in a row or four weeks, which ever is greater. This is not in the hands of the coaches it is a state rule. After awhile, a multiple offender would not play because of lack of eligability. No option here and coach must hold ALL players to the state rules. Are you trying to say that there are coaches that do not uphold the state rules because I am not following your post? Does not matter if it is a starting goalie, mute point because the MSHL applies the rules to all players regardless of the position they play. The goalie would be suspended from play just like any other player and the coach has no say over this.

[justus]

Check the MSHSL policy, players can play after the third violation after completing treatment. But some schools, like Lakeville South, don't apparently need to follow the MSHSL policy.

MN High School League

3. Third and Subsequent Violations: After confirmation of the third or subsequent violations, the student shall lose eligibility for the next twelve (12) consecutive interscholastic contests in which the student is a participant or four (4) weeks, whichever is greater. If after the third or subsequent violations, the student has been assessed to be chemically dependent and the student on her/his own volition becomes a participant in a chemical dependency program or treatment program, then the student may be certified for reinstatement in MSHSL activities after a minimum period of six (6) weeks. Such certification must be issued by the director or a counselor of a chemical dependency treatment center.


Lakeville High School


3. Third and Subsequent Violations: After confirmation of the third
or subsequent violations, the student shall lose eligibility for one
calendar year. The penalty may be reduced to the MSHSL
guidelines (12 consecutive interscholastic contests in which the
student is a participant or four (4) weeks, whichever is greater) if
the student on their own volition enters and satisfactorily
completes a treatment program from a certified chemical
treatment facility. Written confirmation of participation and
satisfactory completion of the treatment program by the
director/certified counselor of that program is required.
With each violation, ISD 194 requires the following steps:
a. Students participate in an initial meeting to discuss the
violation with the student, parent, Dean of Students, and
Athletic Director to set a course of action.
b. Students participate in a meeting prior to resuming
eligibility with the student, parent/guardian, coach,
Activities Director, Dean of Students, and the Chemical
Prevention counselor.
c. The coach may have the option to require service hours to
directly benefit the team.

[hockeyhair15]

I think after one you are done! zero tolerance!
You have your whole life to drink. Wait!!

Which leads perfectly into my next point. Rochester in fact doesn't have the harshest punishment.

Those darned Wayzata Trojans do. Zero tolerance, meaning one chemical offense in season and you are done.

But onward, cause I love this topic and feel very strongly about it. And I disagree alot with upset dad.

"You are right about my kid getting extra time in while the others are at AA - or while they are in jail for a minor."
Jail time for a minor, really?

Kids who wanna have a good time every once in a while? You have to equate that to chemicals?This is not someone from a redneck show, read a Health book before you say that. Don't "turn the other cheek" and dismiss the fact that drugs and alchohol are damn near an epidemic right now. The majority, and this is factual, of high school students try drugs or alchohol prior to graduation. So we're all happy and proud your little Jimmy didn't, but this is reality this is high school.

to answer a future question you're sure to ask in your future profession young man - yes, I would like fries with that.
So kids who "have a few beers on saturday nights" are limited to jobs at fast food restaraunts? You're trying to show maturity on these issues but argue like a child

And no, my kid is obviously not as talented as the trouble maker (or two) on our team...
you already proved your coaches point for him. He sits out two weeks, and comes back. He did his time so now it's time for the coach to put the best team on the ice. If the bad behaivor persists, maybe your kid will see the varsity ice, but no sense in punishing the kid twice by making him sit then play JV. That makes no sense.

how fair do you think it is that the athlete that gets caught gets his same spot back? The kid who fills in because he or she was an idiot gets dumpedHe or She is not getting dumped, they are getting put on the team they made. Again the kid did his time so let him play. Criminals do there time and we let them live. Actually, the gov't usually has a program to help them get back on there feet. So coaches should be doing extra work with this student to get him back up to speed.

In conclusion, this is how I feel, but it really is on a case to case basis. If the kid learns his lesson, which some kids do and some don't, then it should be handled accordingly. But a kid shouldn't lose his spot on a team over a few beers on a Saturday night. Unless it's alot of beers on a Monday morning.

thanks for the back up Mr. Bergundy

[scoreboard33]

I have heard that there is a way to get the MSHSL to commute a drinking sentence to one week provided the athlete meets certain stipulations. I'm not sure if this is a true but a prominent coach told me about this rule, however his team did not have a violation this year, so I'm still not convinced. Anyone know if this is true.

[komada77]

I think after one you are done! zero tolerance!
You have your whole life to drink. Wait!!

Which leads perfectly into my next point. Rochester in fact doesn't have the harshest punishment.

Those darned Wayzata Trojans do. Zero tolerance, meaning one chemical offense in season and you are done.

But onward, cause I love this topic and feel very strongly about it. And I disagree alot with upset dad.

"You are right about my kid getting extra time in while the others are at AA - or while they are in jail for a minor."
Jail time for a minor, really?

Kids who wanna have a good time every once in a while? You have to equate that to chemicals?This is not someone from a redneck show, read a Health book before you say that. Don't "turn the other cheek" and dismiss the fact that drugs and alchohol are damn near an epidemic right now. The majority, and this is factual, of high school students try drugs or alchohol prior to graduation. So we're all happy and proud your little Jimmy didn't, but this is reality this is high school.

to answer a future question you're sure to ask in your future profession young man - yes, I would like fries with that.
So kids who "have a few beers on saturday nights" are limited to jobs at fast food restaraunts? You're trying to show maturity on these issues but argue like a child

And no, my kid is obviously not as talented as the trouble maker (or two) on our team...
you already proved your coaches point for him. He sits out two weeks, and comes back. He did his time so now it's time for the coach to put the best team on the ice. If the bad behaivor persists, maybe your kid will see the varsity ice, but no sense in punishing the kid twice by making him sit then play JV. That makes no sense.

how fair do you think it is that the athlete that gets caught gets his same spot back? The kid who fills in because he or she was an idiot gets dumpedHe or She is not getting dumped, they are getting put on the team they made. Again the kid did his time so let him play. Criminals do there time and we let them live. Actually, the gov't usually has a program to help them get back on there feet. So coaches should be doing extra work with this student to get him back up to speed.

In conclusion, this is how I feel, but it really is on a case to case basis. If the kid learns his lesson, which some kids do and some don't, then it should be handled accordingly. But a kid shouldn't lose his spot on a team over a few beers on a Saturday night. Unless it's alot of beers on a Monday morning.

thanks for the back up Mr. Bergundy

Couldn't have said it better myself

[hockeyhair15]

forgot i had you on my side too komada77, a few more ppl and we can start a posse, riding from town to town showing people the truth.....or get drunk and break stuff

[east hockey]

What does everyone think about coaches and parents who turn the other cheek when a kid gets into trouble with chemicals. You know... kids will be kids.

Wherever this topic heads, if names are named, the topic will be deleted and the person naming names....well, you know....

Lee

Just a reminder, and the only one.

Lee

[REALITYCHECK]

It all boils down to RESPECT. The youth of today have none. We live in a time where if you are a good athlete you are above the rules. The kids will be kids attitude is a joke. Substance abuse among our young people is on the rise. The rules need to change with the times. We to need to think about what will help cut down on these offenses to better serve our children and not what better serves the sport they play.

[Rossbury21]

I just thought i would clear the record that you can go to Jail for a minor, if you have multiple offenses in a certain period of time. I also just wanted to point out that you some of you guys are making yourselves seem extremely immature, and making a discussion into a schoolyard argument, and you know who you are.

I also agree 100 percent with Realitycheck

[aceinthehole]

It all boils down to RESPECT. The youth of today have none. We live in a time where if you are a good athlete you are above the rules. The kids will be kids attitude is a joke. Substance abuse among our young people is on the rise. The rules need to change with the times. We to need to think about what will help cut down on these offenses to better serve our children and not what better serves the sport they play.

ok right but dont take away it from kids who make mistakes.. what would that serve as we want to help get the youth right is what your saying right...so yeah maybe change the consequences or something but you cannot take something away from them that is healthy...than what would they have school?

[HShockeywatcher]

Possibly. But after that everyone that plays HS hockey in MN would know about that kid and many would then think twice about their actions.

[REALITYCHECK]

aceinthehole you are obviously delusional. A mistake is something that is not meant to happen. Drinking,smoking,drugs...these are choices.

[scoreboard33]

aceinthehole you are obviously delusional. A mistake is something that is not meant to happen. Drinking,smoking,drugs...these are choices.

Reality check, you are the one who is obviously delusional. The youth of today are no different than the youth 40 years ago. Athletes have been and probably always will be favored but that doesn't mean they are above the law. On average, athletes get better grades and have less alcohol and drug violations than non-athletes. Drinking, smoking and drug use has been happening for a while and athletes tend to do it less than non-athletes, so that clearly shows they have no respect? It seems you are forgetting what you were like as a child? Often times, choices are mistakes. You get in a car accident, you still chose to drive. So now was the car accident meant to happen? No. Bad choices are mistakes. You are probably only bitter because some kid wouldn't listen to you just because you are an adult. Let me tell you, kids today don't listen to somebody because they are older, they listen to people because they have something to say and with all you bad points, your high and mighty attitude and your poor use of the english language, its no wonder no kid will listen to you.

[komada77]

It all boils down to RESPECT. The youth of today have none. We live in a time where if you are a good athlete you are above the rules. The kids will be kids attitude is a joke. Substance abuse among our young people is on the rise. The rules need to change with the times. We to need to think about what will help cut down on these offenses to better serve our children and not what better serves the sport they play.

Talk about your all-time biggest over-generalizations

[keepmeoutofit]

in our town the football team are the biggest drunks. the basketball an hockey team are the biggest pot smokers. i dont agree that the athletes are cleaner than the general student population.
now if you said the speech and knowlege bowl kids are walking a more narrow path i'd agree.

[kingklick087]

What exactly is the policy on drugs

[Bigcat99]

All I have to say is that when I played in HS, it was 6 weeks for a first offense, and 18 weeks for a second. If a third one ever occurred, you were done for the rest of your high school career - if the second one didn't already do that for you. But that wasn't in MN either.

[Papa Bergundy]

aceinthehole you are obviously delusional. A mistake is something that is not meant to happen. Drinking,smoking,drugs...these are choices.

K I'm not an expert on English diction, but as Scoreboard33 stated, mistakes and bad choices are synonomous. So what's your point?

You want a reality check, it's not like drugs were invented at the turn of the millenium. I did say that drug use was on the rise, which you and I agree on. However, to generalize the youth of today having no respect makes you the delusional one.

Read a history book and learn about the hippies. They had no respect for upper authority unless its title was LSD. Kids will be kids and kicking them out of a sport for a bad choice is plain wrong.

Hockey is my anti-drug, and I'm sure many other kids are saying the same thing. Take that away and kids won't learn there lesson, they'll just lose all factors restraining them from drug use. I think the two weeks will be sufficient unless the bad behaivor continues.

[tilthewhistle]

aceinthehole you are obviously delusional. A mistake is something that is not meant to happen. Drinking,smoking,drugs...these are choices.

K I'm not an expert on English diction, but as Scoreboard33 stated, mistakes and bad choices are synonomous. So what's your point?

You want a reality check, it's not like drugs were invented at the turn of the millenium. I did say that drug use was on the rise, which you and I agree on. However, to generalize the youth of today having no respect makes you the delusional one.

Read a history book and learn about the hippies. They had no respect for upper authority unless its title was LSD. Kids will be kids and kicking them out of a sport for a bad choice is plain wrong.

Hockey is my anti-drug, and I'm sure many other kids are saying the same thing. Take that away and kids won't learn there lesson, they'll just lose all factors restraining them from drug use. I think the two weeks will be sufficient unless the bad behaivor continues.

reality check i

i have to agree kicking a kid out for making a mistake bad choice whatever should have a punishment but do not take away something that is healthy and could change their life......its called reform its a must in our world or everyone of would be screwed!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BaudetteMN]

The worst thing you can do is kick a kid out for making a bad decision. High school hockey is not just about winning and losing games but building theses kids for life. kicking them off the team is sending a bad message saying we have given up on this particular kid.