AAA hockey coming to Minnesota

[puckboy]

Judge:
MN Made would be an option for ice time. That could possibly solve the ice rental issue. If they are still around in a few years. I have heard rumblings about how long they will be up and running.

You still have to get sanctioned.

[hockeyboys]

I have experienced both. And i can guarantee the grass is not always greener on the other side. I have talked to so many people who envy the MN model - we do have an outstanding system that does develop the most number of players to the next levels of hockey.

That does not mean the system is perfect. There are many issues that can be fixed by MN hockey without having to reinvent hockey in this state by introducing winter AAA hockey. Everyone does know that introducing AAA hockey in MN does affect association hockey. Those on this bored who make the arguement that it does not affect everyone else is clearly not seeing the whole picture.

That being said, there does need to be something done to address kids stuck in an associaiton that doesn't field an A team - and they are A players. That is absolutely not fair that there development is curtailed because of the waiver process.

The waiver process in general is unfair as each association and district are not consistent with granting them.

There is much that can and should be done to fix the problems in MN hockey, but AAA winter hockey does not fix all the problems, and creates just as many as it solves. There needs to be a more universal fix to this issue that is good for all of MN hockey, not just a few who think spending $15,000 to $20,000 a year is going to get their kid to play Division I hockey.

I don't want to make this a personal attack as 5th grader seems to want to do when he declares the rest of us are living in the past. This is not the case. But some of us do have players that have already been through the system, have seen our kids compete against the rest of the country, and realize other than a couple of teams like Honeybaked and Little Cesaers, we do an incredibly good job developing more players that end up playing Jr. and College Hockey.

Someone should start a post to discuss the European model. Canadian and US Hockey have both fallen behind the Europeans in developing players drafted to the NHL. In Europe - they don't even place kids on teams and play real games until they are 12-13 years old. They work on skill development - not full ice games. Their games are played on 1/3 of rinks to teach kids how to control the puck, pass and shoot.

If this discussion of AAA hockey is about development, lets start talking about how players are really developed to play in the NHL.

[O-townClown]

Someone should start a post to discuss the European model. Canadian and US Hockey have both fallen behind the Europeans in developing players drafted to the NHL. In Europe - they don't even place kids on teams and play real games until they are 12-13 years old. They work on skill development - not full ice games. Their games are played on 1/3 of rinks to teach kids how to control the puck, pass and shoot.

But that doesn't support their thesis.

[breakout]

Judgeandjury wrote:

Interesting! I wonder what these numbers would look like if Minnesota went the AAA route?

The numbers would probably go the way of the other states that have Tier I drastically down!
I have to repeat this again that according to the President of USA Hockey and I quote" If the states that now have TIER I had there chance they would follow the model that Minnesota has used for all of these years".
****** 2008***2007***2006***2005***2004***2003
MINN.** 203****211****214****205****208****204
MICH***128****146****150****144****130****122
MASS***125****110****124****149 ****159****185
N.Y.*****87*****93****103*****98*****91****101
ILL.*****58*****63*****59*****46*****43*****51
PA.*****51*****37*****40*****43*****45*****47
CAL.****39*****35*****32*****27*****23*****20
CT******31*****26*****30*****29*****31*****34
WIS.****39*****29*****27*****27*****25*****25
N.J.*****27*****23*****25*****23*****19*****19

One would think that the larger number states with Tier I would actually show a very large increase due to the better competition;but they haven't. Mn Hockey Youth numbers have been on the decline for a number of years yet the number of players moving to D 1 has been constant.You can not increase the numbers at the top with out increasing the numbers at the incoming years and Tier 1 teams do not care if that happen or not.They only worry about their team and not the community if a player has problems they usually cut them and get another player. Yes I have witnessed Tier 1 at a few national tournaments and at invitational tournaments in this state and Wisconsin and their actions and sometimes quality of play has made me believe that Minnesota is doing it right.
If you have time go to the AHL and IHL and the ECHL and check the rosters for Mn players, you will find quite a few from some very small associations and a few that played B level till High school a lot more than the states with Tier 1.

Thanks Greybeard

Certainly Minnesota model is not perfect. However, the stats illustrate that MN Hockey is still the best hockey opportunity available.

[MoreCowBell]

Greybeard you can compare D1 attendance per state, but that is only part of the story. Many other states top players are forgoing D1 and playing canadian jr's feeling that prepares them better for the pro's. Patrick Kane is a good example. A better comparison would players from each state that are in the NHL and I'll think you get a completely different result.

[muckandgrind]

before we welcome AAA there are 2 points that are serious barriers.

1) Who is going to sanction these teams in Minnesota. MN hockey, I doubt it.

2) If they get sanctioned, which I don't see how that will happen, where will they get ice. I have read comments that ice is available. Good luck finding it on a consistent basis during the week.

There is PLENTY of available ice...not an issue, whatsoever. I have experience in this area, I could schedule ice for an entire association with a few phone calls. There are metro area arenas with plenty of ice to sell.

[muckandgrind]

Someone should start a post to discuss the European model. Canadian and US Hockey have both fallen behind the Europeans in developing players drafted to the NHL. In Europe - they don't even place kids on teams and play real games until they are 12-13 years old. They work on skill development - not full ice games. Their games are played on 1/3 of rinks to teach kids how to control the puck, pass and shoot.

This is SUCH a false statement, I don't EVEN know where to begin. North America is still, BY FAR, the best at developing young hockey players. Somehow, there is this notion going around that Europe is better...that couldn't be ANY further from the truth. Spend some time looking at the draft and get back to us.....

But, for arguements sake, let's say what you said is correct. Is that what we want? How much fun would that be for the kids? NO GAMES UNTIL THEY ARE 12-13? Ask your young player if that is what they want....People need to remember that kids sign up TO PLAY HOCKEY, not just to practice.

WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO US? There are people who actually believe that kids should only play half ice or practice...no games for them. WHAT A JOKE!!!

[muckandgrind]

Greybeard you can compare D1 attendance per state, but that is only part of the story. Many other states top players are forgoing D1 and playing canadian jr's feeling that prepares them better for the pro's. Patrick Kane is a good example. A better comparison would players from each state that are in the NHL and I'll think you get a completely different result.

Good point.

But let's say they are right...who cares? The percentage of kids who will ever play D1 or Major Junior is incredibly small...why should we tailor a system for just them? Myself, I think allowing Tier I is is a good thing, if for no other reason, than some of the kids may want to play Tier I for the fun of it and no other reason....isn't that reason enough??

[MoreCowBell]

NHL players birthplace; Canada- 399
Europe - 201
Mich. - 27
Minn. - 26
NY - 23
Mass. -14
Wisc. - 7
Alaska - 7
Ill. - 7
Conn. - 6
Penn. - 4
Indiana - 4
Ohio - 3
Mo. - 3
ND - 2
NJ - 2
Calif. - 2
NC - 2
R.I. - 2
Others - 8

[breakout]

Greybeard you can compare D1 attendance per state, but that is only part of the story. Many other states top players are forgoing D1 and playing canadian jr's feeling that prepares them better for the pro's. Patrick Kane is a good example. A better comparison would players from each state that are in the NHL and I'll think you get a completely different result.

Good point.

But let's say they are right...who cares? The percentage of kids who will ever play D1 or Major Junior is incredibly small...why should we tailor a system for just them? Myself, I think allowing Tier I is is a good thing, if for no other reason, than some of the kids may want to play Tier I for the fun of it and no other reason....isn't that reason enough??

How many Minnesota kids between the ages of 6 and 14 know what Tier 1 is? In my opinion, over the top parents drive the notion.

Keith Ballard developed up at Lake of the Woods. He kept playing and playing. Snowmobiled to play with his friends.

How about getting the kids outside and developing at the parks? Anyone for that?

[Bruins]

DMom wrote
They didn't get crushed, the score was 2-1 thanks to excellent goaltending on their part. You've just made my point for me, there is AAA hockey in Wisconsin. All you do is move the problem away from yourself and your kid, or so you think, the problem still exists for those 'left behind'.[/quote]

So we have to keep playing little league so some kids dont get left behind, I didnt know that was part of the deal. How touchy feely. DMom I am still trying to figure out what AAA team your son plays for that beat the 97 Blades which you say "was the most fun you ever had at a youth sporting event". Were the Blades parents really standing around in shocked horror because they lost to no-names? What team are you talking about? I think if your child was in a weak association you would be singing a different tune when it comes to AAA.

[3 boys]

I have been reading some of this. AAA hockey coming to your winter leagues. I know what AAA is in the summer, But what is the cost in the winter? And how would you divide the teams? Maybe regional.
Or maybe big cities? Any ideas

[elliott70]

AAA is not coming to MN.

No one has brought a plan or request to MN Hockey Board.

Even if someone brought something to the winter meeting it would be darn near impossible to have it in place by next season.

[buttend]

Have you ever played a regular "little league" Wisconsin team. Just recently had the experience of playing their PeeWee A state championship team from last year, we, a small association, outshot them 37-4. There are no competitive teams in Wisconsin except for Hudson and Superior and that's because they play in Minnesota, you'd have that happen to Minnesota?

DMom,

MN hockey and WI hockey is like comparing apples to oranges because of the difference in birth year. Wi PeeWee are all 96 and 97 birth year. MN its 95,96,97. Take a look at the make up of your team. I will bet that you have something close to (7) 95 players, 8, 96 players, (2) 97 players. Those 7 or so 95 players on your roster make a big difference against a WI PWA team. The WI teams probably are split 60/40 96/97. + its the entire 97 birth year not the first half and those added 97's are a disadvantage against a MN team. Most WI PWA teams play MN PW B1 teams for competition.

BTW Eau Claire are a"Small" Association also, 4 total PW teams

[buttend]

They didn't get crushed, the score was 2-1 thanks to excellent goaltending on their part. You've just made my point for me, there is AAA hockey in Wisconsin. All you do is move the problem away from yourself and your kid, or so you think, the problem still exists for those 'left behind'.

So we have to keep playing little league so some kids dont get left behind, I didnt know that was part of the deal. How touchy feely. DMom I am still trying to figure out what AAA team your son plays for that beat the 97 Blades which you say "was the most fun you ever had at a youth sporting event". Were the Blades parents really standing around in shocked horror because they lost to no-names? What team are you talking about? I think if your child was in a weak association you would be singing a different tune when it comes to AAA.

Last Summer the 97 Blades played 2 scrimmages against the 96 Cyclones

1st Scrimmage No-Check 97 Blades came out on top
2nd Scrimmage was Checking 96 Cyclones came out on top

I believe both scrimmages were 1-2 goal games.

[iwearmysunglassesatnight]

[quote="buttend"][quote="Bruins"][quote="DMom"]
They didn't get crushed, the score was 2-1 thanks to excellent goaltending on their part. You've just made my point for me, there is AAA hockey in Wisconsin. All you do is move the problem away from yourself and your kid, or so you think, the problem still exists for those 'left behind'.[/quote]

So we have to keep playing little league so some kids dont get left behind, I didnt know that was part of the deal. How touchy feely. DMom I am still trying to figure out what AAA team your son plays for that beat the 97 Blades which you say "was the most fun you ever had at a youth sporting event". Were the Blades parents really standing around in shocked horror because they lost to no-names? What team are you talking about? I think if your child was in a weak association you would be singing a different tune when it comes to AAA.[/quote]

Last Summer the 97 Blades played 2 scrimmages against the 96 Cyclones

1st Scrimmage No-Check 97 Blades came out on top
2nd Scrimmage was Checking 96 Cyclones came out on top

I believe both scrimmages were 1-2 goal games.[/quote]


that a boy Butt, you tell em...... 96 Cyclones clearly the dominant one... with checking involved.

[breakout]

AAA is not coming to MN.

No one has brought a plan or request to MN Hockey Board.

Even if someone brought something to the winter meeting it would be darn near impossible to have it in place by next season.

Agree with your first sentence.

Personally, I think there is only a handful of people that feel AAA hockey is a good idea. Certainly the topic stirs up passion from both sides of the debate.

[Bruins]

DMom, your "no-name" AAA team is the Cyclones? I think we have heard of them. I know several people on both teams and they all said checking was in both games. Why would either team play a no check game, sounds like an excuse for someone. That cant really be the most fun you ever had at a youth sporting event, beating a team at the 97 level, is it? Anyway, I think AAA will be here, my guess is less than five years.

[hockeyboys]

All of you who keep "predicting" AAA will be here - its on its way - within 5 years, etc. are obviously not involved with MN Hockey at the state level. I would suggest that if you really feal strongly about this issue - which your posts suggests, you spend your time volunteering, and running for positions with MN hockey, instead of spending so much time yapping nonesense on this bored.

[muckandgrind]

All of you who keep "predicting" AAA will be here - its on its way - within 5 years, etc. are obviously not involved with MN Hockey at the state level. I would suggest that if you really feal strongly about this issue - which your posts suggests, you spend your time volunteering, and running for positions with MN hockey, instead of spending so much time yapping nonesense on this bored.

AAA is ALREADY here. Ever hear of the Fire and SSM? Minnesota Made has started a winter league for Squirts....you don't think that will eventually form into a winter AAA team also?

AAA doesn't necessarily need MN Hockey's blessing. I have a question though, if MN Hockey doesn't sanction AAA, how is it that the Fire and Shattuck can play MN Hockey teams? How would adding another team impact what is already happening?

What is MN Hockey afraid of?

[muckandgrind]

NHL players birthplace; Canada- 399
Europe - 201
Mich. - 27
Minn. - 26
NY - 23
Mass. -14
Wisc. - 7
Alaska - 7
Ill. - 7
Conn. - 6
Penn. - 4
Indiana - 4
Ohio - 3
Mo. - 3
ND - 2
NJ - 2
Calif. - 2
NC - 2
R.I. - 2
Others - 8

Thank you, glad to see that North America is still leading the way and hasn't "fallen behind" as some are suggesting. Canada has almost twice as many NHLers as the entire continent of Europe.

[DMom]

Have you ever played a regular "little league" Wisconsin team. Just recently had the experience of playing their PeeWee A state championship team from last year, we, a small association, outshot them 37-4. There are no competitive teams in Wisconsin except for Hudson and Superior and that's because they play in Minnesota, you'd have that happen to Minnesota?

DMom,

MN hockey and WI hockey is like comparing apples to oranges because of the difference in birth year. Wi PeeWee are all 96 and 97 birth year. MN its 95,96,97. Take a look at the make up of your team. I will bet that you have something close to (7) 95 players, 8, 96 players, (2) 97 players. Those 7 or so 95 players on your roster make a big difference against a WI PWA team. The WI teams probably are split 60/40 96/97. + its the entire 97 birth year not the first half and those added 97's are a disadvantage against a MN team. Most WI PWA teams play MN PW B1 teams for competition.

BTW Eau Claire are a"Small" Association also, 4 total PW teams

The point is not that we were "great" enough to beat younger kids, I fully understand those differences but thanks for the lesson. Winter AAA in Minnesota is the topic, I was pointing out what may happen to association hockey, but it sets up the question as to what birth age set up would the ficticious teams use? If going with Minnesota ages, as the Choice team do, they won't be eligible nationally, and if going with the USAhockey ages they will still have to play those bigger kids if they were allowed into any Minnesota tournaments.

The Pee Wee Choice may they could have a north, east, west and south, but they won't have anyone else to play. Idon't actually have a problem with where anyone else plays, but I have known many people who were dissatisfied with their associations and I have known quite a few of those who than got involved in the daily goings on. Once they realize why and how decisions get made than it is much easier to support association hockey. I know the training isn't always the best, but there is nothing stopping kids from getting their training in the off season. The one group I feel the worst for are the goalies, because that type of training is so specific and it is such an expensive spot to play. I don't have a goalie child, but I can understand their frustrations with association hockey.

[Dazed&Confused]

I have read the many posts.We did do all three Association , Winter AAA and Off season AAA. AAA in the spring , summer, and fall was deffinately the best. We did play and win against elite AAA teams in the US and Canada. Winter AAA Fire was not by any means better. True AAA or Tier one teams did not want to play us. Not established as a club. There was a a league we played in Mid America I believe. Mission Capitols Indy Blues Etc They for the most part where good competition. But not great
My Point . Even if Minnesota Hockey would allow this to happen it would take awhile to get off the ground. Established Clubs would be the best bet some prior reputation. But These teams will need to travel. They wont come here why would they. other than a few teams in Chicago and Detroit there are not that many really good AAA teams. Shattucks yes But only Bantams and up. So if we have these Tier One Teams playing each other. I guess I dont see the point. Same kids play against each other right now. I agree there should be something done for the kids that need to play for an A team. I really dont think the districts help at all with these situations.

[hockeyboys]

MN teams can play any USA hockey sanctioned teams. Keep in mind - they have rules about playing non-sanctioned teams. There are insurance issues to contend with.
The Fire is sanctioned in WI, and Shattuck is sanctioned by USA hockey, with Minnesota's blessing. So... yes - MN hockey absolutely has a voice in AAA sanctioned hockey in MN.
Also keep in mind that summer AAA teams are not sanctioned (for the most part) by USA hockey. They do not fall under that umbrella unless they go to a USA hockey sanctioned tournament, and then they need to follow certain procedures to roster that particular team.
I have not talked to Bernie about his future plans for his program - have you? From the messages i have read here - i don't see anyone speaking for Bernie and his future plans. Just speculation that he wants to turn it into a AAA program. Would not surprise me - but i have just not heard it from Bernie himself.
I beg all of you - if you are this passionate, please get involved in MN hockey, USA hockey, even your associaiton. If you want change, put yourself and your time towards the effort. We need more passionate people to get involved. I may not necessarily agree with the direction you advocate - but I do want to see people with passion and opinions involved in the process. It will make the sport better for the kids.

[breakout]

All of you who keep "predicting" AAA will be here - its on its way - within 5 years, etc. are obviously not involved with MN Hockey at the state level. I would suggest that if you really feal strongly about this issue - which your posts suggests, you spend your time volunteering, and running for positions with MN hockey, instead of spending so much time yapping nonesense on this bored.

I suspect the majority of people that yap about AAA hockey, complain about their associations, complain about their hockey boards and complain about Minnesota hockey do little volunteering. Why get involved? It's easier to throw stones from a safe distance.