AAA hockey coming to Minnesota

[muckandgrind]

My own opinion is that kids in this age group are really missing out by not playing with their friends in their own association at this young age. I have heard that at Minnesota Made the squirts and mites play 30 games and 3 or so tournaments against their other 3 in house teams. You can say what you will, but the overwhelming majority of the kids playing with their associations at the squirt age are having more fun traveling and playing with friends from school then the kids who play the same 3 teams day in and day out. Right or wrong, this is what others are saying when they state what experience kids are missing out on when they don't play for their associations. I have seen it first hand, and in the end there will be little or no difference between the squirt age kids who stayed with their associations versus those who did their own thing, when they get to bantams and high school. What I think fools some parents is that because they think their child looks more advanced at this young age, that it will continue as they get older. As many of you know with older kids, it won't. The kids who are athletically talented will be there regardless of where they played growing up. The only difference is how each child got there. To each his own when it comes to that.

That's your opinion and you are certainly entitiled to it, but what if your kids went to a private school outside of your local association boundaries and all your kid's friends played for a different association than the one you were forced to play for....would your opinion change then?

Muckandgrind - in that case, wouldn't the kid benefit from the many varied friendships and experiences he and his parents would develop with kids from all over, not just his school? At least that's the argument for AAA that's been advanced on the board in the past.

Now that we all know that you "get it", why don't you answer the question - why are you doing it? Starbuckmom asked that several times, respectfully, not preaching, and you still haven't answered.

Many of us, myself included, would like the answer. Judgeandjury answered it, why not you?

My son's team just played a Tier I team from outstate. One of the parents told us that they spend upward to $30k a year with fees, travel, etc., not to mention the time involved and impact on the families. The siblings in the stands did not look so thrilled that they were there. Also, they start their season in August, so no fall sports for those kids.

Why?

When Sally's mom spends exorbitant fees for piano lessons for Sally's hopes to reach Carnegie Hall or to be the next Lorie Line, or just to say she's an accomplished pianist, that doesn't effect Sally's other piano playing friends.

When the AAA proponents push Minnesota Hockey to allow Tier I during winter season, it effects all the kids playing winter hockey. The fees/time/travel involved preclude the great majority of kids in Minnesota from participation. It also takes away the opportunities and development from those kids that are good enough to play at that level but can't participate because of cost, time and travel.

What would you do if your kid didn't make the cut for the Tier I MN Team? Would you stoop so low as to have him return to Association hockey in the winter or push for more Tier I teams?

You may be tired of the preaching so-called do-gooders, but I can tell you there are just as many hockey parents who are tired of the arrogance of the parents sending the message that "my kid (and me) are better than to have to put up with association hockey (and the rest of you).

So rather than dodge the question, why not answer it. Maybe then you and your like-minded friends won't be so misunderstood.

Another guy who wants to presume he knows what's best for my kid. And yes, Starbuck mom WAS preaching. She was telling me that kids should only have hopes and dreams that are "realistic" Also, filling me in on "what's really important in life" as if she knows me and what I think. Sounds an awful lot like preaching to me. And for you to claim you know what's best for all kids (including mine) and have the nerve to call me "arrogant" really takes the cake.

Why does my son like to play AAA? Answer is incredibly simple. He likes to compete, play with his friends and play on competitive teams. When my kid tells me that he looks forward to summer so he can play AAA "with his buddies" again, that tells me something. When he says that winter hockey is just something do to until summer hockey starts, that tells me something. It's not that he doesn't get along with the players on his winter team, he does. He just has more fun playing AAA. I think coaching and skill level of his teammates are the biggest factors that make it an enjoyable experience, though.

As far as your $30K figure...not sure where you got that number. I'm good friends with a guy whose son played on the 93 Fire a few years ago and he payed less than a 1/3 of that cost.

What if he didn't make a Tier I team? Answer is simple, than he doesn't. But at least he would have the opportunity to try out. He's a Bantam and will be playing HS in a couple of years anyways. But even if my kid doesn't make a team, I still think the idea of more Tier I teams in this state is long overdue and should (and probably will) happen.

You see, it's not just my kid I'm thinking about. I know there are many others like me believe that "whole over the few" argument spewed by those against Tier I is completely hypocritical when the way that Minnesota Hockey is currently set up does just the opposite: favors the few over the whole. It's the same few associations every year competiting with each other for no other reason than numbers.

You said: When the AAA proponents push Minnesota Hockey to allow Tier I during winter season, it effects all the kids playing winter hockey

HOW??? I don't see any significant impact on the rest of Minnesota Hockey if this were to happen. For arguments sake, if three Tier I teams were to form, that would be roughly 50 kids max from each brith year playing outside of community hockey. 50 kids from the ENTIRE state!!! Really, how will that impact you and everyone else?

Tier I would have less of an impact on Minnesota Hockey than Junior Hockey has on Minnesota High School Hockey.

Since you and others like to presume about me, I'm presuming that your son or daughters play for a larger well run association, thus are happy with your situation. Good for you. I'm truly happy for you...just remember that there are many who are not in your situation.

[Jimbo99]

Minnesota hockey has been in flux for a long time. The state tournament was pretty cool when there was one champion and before the private schools were allowed in. It's still pretty cool and the fact that Roseau was able to win it is awesome, but they are the exception anymore - not the rule. I'd love to go back but we can't.

Economics has driven almost all the change. The price of hockey has risen at a far greater clip than inflation. Indoor ice, more and better equipment, year-round play, professional coaching, summer camps and clinics, governance and officiating, travelling and the cost of fuel, account for most of it. There are a lot of good athletes out there who can never dream of even giving it a shot.

I don't like change either, but AAA IS coming. I'm really not sure what will be the trigger, I don't follow it that closely. Will AAA spell the end for HS hockey in MN? Or, is the declining economy hastening the end of HS hockey in MN and the "need" for AAA? Opinions?

What I find hard to imagine, is a place where no one plays anything but "elite hockey". If it's all California and Colorado and $500/hour rinks and few if any kids on ponds or at parks, who is going to grow up and watch D1 or the NHL? As I see it, the "elitists" should never forget that in a very real way, they are dependent upon nurturing and preserving the sport at all levels.

In the end, I hope that MN Hockey finds a way to accomodate AAA hockey while preserving as many avenues for as many kids as want to - to play. B & C hockey can be brutal to watch, but it IS about the kids playing, NOT us and they all DO deserve to dream.

ALL of the opinions expressed in this thread are relevant. But remember that this board undoubtedly leans a bit toward the elite players and hyper-enthusiasts. Just because there are fewer people here who post about the need to keep things in perspective doesn't mean they're a minority in the real world. There are way too many parents out there who need to take a step back and think for a minute.

Keep it available, accessable, and fun for everyone, or the sport dies.

[elliott70]

As stated there is nothing on the horizon for AAA 'in season' hockey in MN.
When the agenda is relesed for the January meeting I will let you know if someone has made some sort of request.

[O-townClown]

Wow Jimbo, were your first 39 points as interesting as the 40th! Great job of explaining your thoughts.

[Cardiackid]

Lots of great points made both pro and con in regards to AAA in season hockey. Elliott makes the statement that there is nothing on the table at this time regarding AAA hockey. While that may be true and if Elliott says it is I am sure it is. However, (you knew it was coming) there is discussion about forming a AAA league for high school age players. Of course it is just discussion, or is it. I am pretty confident in the person who informed me, he has no reason to manufacture such a story. What I know at this time is the idea is to have 12 teams throughout the state, have them play in league play in the neighborhood of 50 games. The theory is having the best high school kids playing against the other good players will avert the blow out stats and give the Minnesota player a better start at the Jr level by giving him more games against solid competition. I know this has been a comment by more than 1 college and Jr coach how Minnesota players could use more games to help make the transition to the Jr level, and how midget hockey doesnt really have that issue. This could be all smoke and mirrors but I have the distinct feeling this is being seriously discussed. I always thought of myself as a purist but after hearing some of the details I have to admit this is a pretty good idea. You take out the top 250 kids which is roughly the top 5%, you have them play in a league against each othe which allows them to showcase their talent. This also allows development of some younger talent that might not see varsity until senior year. I have been chewing on this for a couple of days, lets hear what the "bored" have to say.

[elliott70]

Lots of great points made both pro and con in regards to AAA in season hockey. Elliott makes the statement that there is nothing on the table at this time regarding AAA hockey. While that may be true and if Elliott says it is I am sure it is. However, (you knew it was coming) there is discussion about forming a AAA league for high school age players. Of course it is just discussion, or is it. I am pretty confident in the person who informed me, he has no reason to manufacture such a story. What I know at this time is the idea is to have 12 teams throughout the state, have them play in league play in the neighborhood of 50 games. The theory is having the best high school kids playing against the other good players will avert the blow out stats and give the Minnesota player a better start at the Jr level by giving him more games against solid competition. I know this has been a comment by more than 1 college and Jr coach how Minnesota players could use more games to help make the transition to the Jr level, and how midget hockey doesnt really have that issue. This could be all smoke and mirrors but I have the distinct feeling this is being seriously discussed. I always thought of myself as a purist but after hearing some of the details I have to admit this is a pretty good idea. You take out the top 250 kids which is roughly the top 5%, you have them play in a league against each othe which allows them to showcase their talent. This also allows development of some younger talent that might not see varsity until senior year. I have been chewing on this for a couple of days, lets hear what the "bored" have to say.

If they are going to be AAA (USA Hockey Tier I), no matter the age midget, junior, bantam etc....
they have to go tthrough tMH to USA Hockey.
There is nothing beign presentted as of right now.
I should have the agenda shortly as we are beyond the 30 days prior to put things on it.

[elliott70]

This is part of the premise for elite 1.

The one thing this misses is practice time. If you have 12 sites throughout the state, once you get by the immediate metro area practice time becomes more difficult and beyond teh Rocherster to St Cloud metro it is almost impossible (without leaving home to move to a more metro area). The best kids in Roseau and Warroad are not really looking to move... playing varsity is what their youth program was about.

It may sound good on paper, but I would see some sort of bantam Tier I program before s high school level. but that is just my opinion and not based on some sort of planning by someone.

[play4fun]

One common thread throughout this and other threads I've read about AAA keeps popping up. There are parents and kids who would prefer to play outside of their local associations -- let's just keep it simple and say for "development" reasons.

For the most part, larger associations tend to be more successful in providing "appropriate" levels of play with numbers to support legitimate teams from A through C. Larger associations also tend to have deeper coaching talent pools to draw from -- so possibly better "development" opportunities through better instruction for their kids. (That's not saying that all smaller associations lack coaching talent. Just that some struggle from time to time, just as they do with having enough players to field teams at all levels.)

Whether AAA is coming, on the distant horizon, or simply hypothetical, is there an opportunity for MN Hockey to be pro-active and explore providing more "development" opportunities through the current community-based system?

I understand that a waiver system is in place to allow for kids to play other than where they live, but is that system working well? From what I've read, it looks as though local associations can be both reluctant to grant, and to receive waivers.

There are families for whom the the one-size-fits-all approach to play-where-you-live isn't working well. They either look for other options (like MM if the cost, time, and/or travel aren't obstacles), OR, the kids quit playing hockey. That's obviously not good for the sport.

For those who might suggest playing on a summer AAA team as another good "development" opportunity, that option can conflict with other good "development" opportunities like baseball, soccer, football, or heck, just enjoying being a kid while school is out.

Let's also skip the "just get involved in your association" comment for those who have and were unable to have a meaningful impact,,, as well as the "just move to a different association" given the difficulty of that option in the current housing market.

So again, is there a way for MN Hockey to improve the current system to provide more flexibility in choice of where to play?

Open enrollment wasn't the mass undoing of small schools in MN as feared, so couldn't a slightly more open system in youth hockey enrollment work as well?

Maybe there should be limits to ease administration. Maybe based on association size? Ability to attend another association's tryouts at a level not offered by the local association?

Just a question. Or two...

[greybeard58]

There are a couple of Districts that have allowed the smaller associations to field cooperative teams.Where each association did not offer the A level before with the coop they are now at the A level along with other levels. Yet there will be some who use the excuse that my association does not field an A level now might say that there is not enough talent on the team that can play with the ability of my child. I use the scenario but that reason was actually given by a parent. He chose to move and open enroll to a different school for the boys 9 and 10 grade and by the time the boy was a senior he was back at his old school playing with the former kids with less talent who now had passed him.Happened over 10 years ago and the father to this day still complains about the shafting his son took at all the schools he attended including the senior year at his original school.

[elliott70]

One common thread throughout this and other threads I've read about AAA keeps popping up. There are parents and kids who would prefer to play outside of their local associations -- let's just keep it simple and say for "development" reasons.

For the most part, larger associations tend to be more successful in providing "appropriate" levels of play with numbers to support legitimate teams from A through C. Larger associations also tend to have deeper coaching talent pools to draw from -- so possibly better "development" opportunities through better instruction for their kids. (That's not saying that all smaller associations lack coaching talent. Just that some struggle from time to time, just as they do with having enough players to field teams at all levels.)

Whether AAA is coming, on the distant horizon, or simply hypothetical, is there an opportunity for MN Hockey to be pro-active and explore providing more "development" opportunities through the current community-based system?

...

Discernemnt committee was to work on this but it is not moving too fast.

The quicker way seems to come from outside the MH board and bring an idea with everything (or most everything) in place and let it be discussed and voted on....

[wiscobad]

Instead of calling them AAA or Tier 1-- call the new all star teams MN Select and/or MN Super Series. Call them tournament squads and play non MN teams. Simple. This debate is way too hard. Bash AAA/Tier 1 during the regular season and summer... but praise for a weekend in April?

Or maybe, just keep the Blades, Machine, Icemen, etc... together all year round. Let them play Fire and any other non MN team they want. They can pay the $, get their own ice for practices, set up games, and establish tournament participation. How's this idea elitist or complicated? It already exists.

[elliott70]

Instead of calling them AAA or Tier 1-- call the new all star teams MN Select and/or MN Super Series. Call them tournament squads and play non MN teams. Simple. This debate is way too hard. Bash AAA/Tier 1 during the regular season and summer... but praise for a weekend in April?

Or maybe, just keep the Blades, Machine, Icemen, etc... together all year round. Let them play Fire and any other non MN team they want. They can pay the $, get their own ice for practices, set up games, and establish tournament participation. How's this idea elitist or complicated? It already exists.

Sorry it does not already exist as these teams are not sanctioned by MH USAH.
And they would not be under current MH rules.

[play4fun]

wiscobad wrote:
"Instead of calling them AAA or Tier 1-- call the new all star teams MN Select and/or MN Super Series. Call them tournament squads and play non MN teams. Simple. This debate is way too hard. Bash AAA/Tier 1 during the regular season and summer... but praise for a weekend in April?

Or maybe, just keep the Blades, Machine, Icemen, etc... together all year round. Let them play Fire and any other non MN team they want. They can pay the $, get their own ice for practices, set up games, and establish tournament participation. How's this idea elitist or complicated? It already exists."

Some of the teams you mention could form the base for a non-USA Hockey sanctioned winter league at some point. But, I'd question whether kids on those teams would forego playing for their local associations during the winter? I don't think you can assume kids playing at an A level for associations like Wayzata, Edina, EP (insert your own list) that are part of the Blades, Machine, Icemen, etc... would make that choice.

Also, I'd like to think there may be other options within the current community-based system that could compliment what's already in place. I'm not sure what the answers may be, but simply extending some of the summer AAA teams to a year-round format isn't as simple or as straightforward as you've suggested.

[buttend]

I would think Mn Hockey would want to be proactive on this topic rather than reactive. At some point their hands might be forced to do something that may or may not benefit Minnesota hockey.

In my opinion, there is a big hole in youth hockey, its at the Midget level. There really is not a midget level offered through Asociation Hockey. Sure some Assiciations rainbow Jr Gold teams but for the most part the players eligible for this level have the followig options

1) High School Teams ( few 10th graders make this level)
2) JV teams limited to (20-22 games)
3) Jr Gold Teams
4) quit.

This year minor Midget according to USA hockey would be 93 birth years. The majority of these players are 10 graders some 9th graders.

I hypothetically propose that each metro distict field 2 teams under an associations name. All players on the Districts 2 teams must come from that District via tryouts.

Discict 6 Edina, Bloomington
District 8 Lakeville and Woodbury
District 3 OMG, Wayzata
District 2 Roseville WBL

District 11 team ? made up of Kids from Duluth Hermantown, Superior, Proctor Cloquet

Players Outside of the above Districts go to the Fire?

These teams could be registerd as Tier 1 AAA Midget Minor. Play a 50 + game schedule between themselves. Be eligible to play in Chicago , Detriot, Shattuck, and National Tier 1 tournaments if they desire.

I would think this would be a desirable option for 150+ top end players and an attractive playing level that Minnesota hockey stand behind and market. The very best can go HS if they make it, if a player cannot afford it they can tryout for JV or play Jr Gold

Pros
Tier 1 AAA level offered by Minn Hockey
Does not really cut into HS hockey rosters.
High level league that would provide added development level for top end players.
Would keep more youth players playing youth hockey
Does not interfere with the current association structure
Does not intefere with the current "extended " association structure. Most northern Associations do not offer Jr Gold but rather JV or HS.
Should not cost any more than a current Bantam A season unless a team decides to travel to allot of Midget Tier1 events.
High School teams will benefit by getting players coming off a 50+ game Midget team rather than a 20 game JV team.

Cons
Weakens the JV program by a player or 2
Creates an "elite" level in youth hockey
Does not fit into any Associations but falls under a District oversite
Does not fall under "Community Based hockey" as proposed.
may weaken the jr gold level
May weaken private school rosters.

Thoughts??

[Cardiackid]

This sounds an awful lot like the scenario I have heard about. I believe the final count was 12 teams and a 50 game schedule.