Post-Tournament Rankings

[TKO_81]

Sorry everyone for not staying on the topic here but I want to hopefully make a point here and its gonna take a little explaining to set it up. I know exactly what you are saying roseauveratted, but you may have missed the point? Roseau plays who they play for reasons other than they don't want to mix it up with the better teams and therefor it may be a bit harder when it comes to ranking teams like them. Last year and the year before, Roseau won a ton of games without a loss or tie which is difficult each and every game (yes it helps if they aren't all top ranked teams but there was a BIG SCHOOL State Champion Banner for Roseau leading into the no loss season as well). I believe Blaine was ranked and Roseau got them by like 6 goals in the STATE tourny last year??? Edina, Roseau, or Hill could have skated to the top on a given weekend but Hill did it when it was time. My point is, the rankings were not far off and that is normally about as close as a ranking gets. I ususally don't get too caught up in the rankings but for the most part they are fairly accurate per the time and performances as a season progresses throughout the year. Rankings change all year as wins/losses pile up. In the end, teams may be a few places from where they actually end the season but rankings do give everyone a feel for who has it going at a given time. I personally feel you are not accurate in your thinking if you feel teams like Roseau and Edina (especially Roseau since they don't get tested in your opinion) shouldn't have been ranked where they were even though they were beat by Hill in the end (look at the big picture). So rank Roseau 4th (last year) instead of 1st, that doesn't mean they weren't a solid team and in my opinion still proved their ranking to be fairly accurate. Oh, you may want to think about what you are saying when you take a swipe at all the less fortunate teams your deserving tested teams do play (I don't think they would appreciate the NOBODY coments) many of them are normally pretty darn good teams that work darn hard. I am done on this one, sorry everyone. Back to topic and I do feel Karl(east) summed it up pretty well initially for this point in the season.

[karl(east)]

Re: why I ranked EP and Jefferson where I did, in spite of their lack of quality wins.

First off, by far the hardest part of these rankings to put together was from spots 2-7. Edina on top is obvious, and 8-15 fell in pretty easily.

The reason I put Jefferson and EP ahead of all the others was mostly because, while they may not have the gaudy wins of some of the others, they've also avoided having a letdown, which is a lot harder to do than people tend to give it credit for. Duluth East got embarrassed by Breck; Centennial lost to a White Bear team that it should have beaten on paper. Going undefeated is very hard, even with an easy schedule. Every team has off-nights, and even the best will look silly at times...just look at Hill last year. I give Jefferson and EP a fair amount of credit for avoiding that so far. While Hill doesn't have any truly embarrassing losses this year, I had to draw the line somewhere; a top-3 team shouldn't go into a premier tournament and finish 6th. And though they may look good, until AHA gets a win against another top team (which they don't have yet), I can't bring myself to put them in the top 5. EP played Edina better than AHA did.

And these teams are close enough that these rankings can change quickly. The loser of tommorow's Jefferson-EP game should probably drop into the 7-10 range.

The obvious question this invites is "so if Jefferson is in the top 5 for being undefeated with a weak schedule, why isn't Maple Grove?" I justify this by noting that even in a down year, the Lake is still a good bit better than what Maple Grove has been beating up on. I also may not be giving them enough respect, as they're pretty new to top-15 discussions in hockey...but these are my rankings, so I can get away with that.

It may not be fair, but if Maple Grove proves it belongs when it takes on Centennial and Blaine in the next two weeks, they'll shoot up the rankings accordingly. But the limitation of any human poll is knowledge about the given teams. Right now, we know that EP and Jefferson are and will continue to be consistently good teams, and that they have excellent players like Herbert and Faust and Leddy. But the same can't be said about MG at this point, so they aren't given the benefit of the doubt.

[cctndr30]

AHA and WBL. Based on what I saw against good competition, it looked like AHA and WBL were equal and should have tied. Both were below average. Bottom half top conference teams. Both would have 5 losses in a good conference. I'm not sure but wasn't that shown on the ice this weekend?

[Roseauverrated]

Sorry my posts kind of came off like I thought Roseau was absolute crap last year. By no means do I think that, obviously they were a good team, I just don't think they were the #1 team everyone here had hyped them up to be all year long simply because they were undefeated. People were even trying to say they were better than the '93 Jefferson team. I think Edina, Hill, Benilde, and Tonka were all better teams last season.

[cctndr30]

Roseau;
you are right on target. The point is, we don't know how good Roseau really was since they didn't play near the schedule of the Elite city teams. If they played Eden prairie's schedule last year they may have had 3-5 losses, and still may have done well at state. And, their players all would have had many less points to brag about but may not have been any less talented. Ness was really good, but he wouldn't have had 50 points with a full city schedule, and that still doesnt' mean he wasn't Mister Hockey. This is the issue in Minnesota hockey. We measure the simple stuff and need to spend more time in deeper analysis. For instance: Full strength Points per Game against top 20,10,5 teams per minute played. Want to know who the best player or team is? Get the answer to that question. Example, you have a kid with 7 goals all 5 on 5 with 15 minutes per game and no power play. Is he better or worse than the teams top scorer who has twenty goals (but 10 PP goals)with 27minutes per game? The D1 schools are now opting for the 5 on 5 guy.

[Pucklvr]

Rankings are rankings, last year was a year that proved that. To say that there is an ULTIMATE best team in state is very hard, sometimes the state final isn't played when it should be, sometimes it is played in a section tournament. I guess what I want to prove is that people associate the seedings with the tournament. It doesn't work that way. As for the tourney being the best if the top 8 were there yes. But, it doesn't happen, therefore the rankings are what, wrong??? The top three could come from the same section. #3, could end up at state. AHA is an example, a few years ago (I don't remember the year) they were ranked very high all year. Where were they at tourney time? Watching it in their living rooms. I would like someone to try to figure out how many years it does happen that the #1 and the #2 teams play each other in the championship and it turns out #1 is #1. I can remember 1990 when Roseau and Grand Rapids played each other for the title. End of the season Rapids beat Roseau which gave them the #1 seed. Tourney came and Roseau walked out with the hardware. I think we should do away with rankings and let them play. What really does it prove? Is the best really the best? I think most coaches would agree, it's not the ranking that matters, it is how you play, what you learn, and where your heart is. To bad we couldn't rank teams on how hard they play, best attitudes, or love of the game. Isn't that what the sport is really about? Call me Pollyanna but that is just my view.

[slapstkhound]

Why is everybody putting WB over Woodbury when Woodbury beat them?

I'm going out on a limb here, but possibly it's because people think White Bear is a better team than Woodbury.

Lee

...but they really aren't. My point earlier was that a team is given credit for its past performances whether any of the current players were born when they were powerhouses. WBL is an OK team but they are not top 20, in my opinion. If they make it out of sections, I'll eat my piece of humble pie, but I don't wee that happening. EP is completely unproven but still remains at the top of everyone's list just because they play in the Lake Conference. Lake Schmake....a win over a crappy Lake Conference team (Rosemount 0-9) is no better than a win over any other crappy team from another conference.

[Pucklvr]

one more question I wanted to ask, if #14 beats #2 does that make #14 the second best team in the state for that week of seedings?? Well, they beat them??

Post season seedings are needed. Rakings during the year, do they really tell you much? Everyone can have an off night.

[youngblood08]

Hats off to Karl! Really nice breakdown of the teams at this point in the season. One to save to see how they end up in March.

Have to agree that Edina looked unbeatable last night. Loved how well the camera captured the great speed and moves of the Edina players. Looks like they got the lines right and they now have 2-3 strong lines!! they all moved the puck so well. Looked like good chemistry. Still think AHA is a better team than they showed last night though. The Riley boys, Matteson and Burke are strong players - maybe just an off night. Didn't think they would win but thought they'd give the Hornets a tougher game.

I will say Connor Reilly looked like the hype is justified but the other 2 don't deserve the press time. Didn't see the little Dman out much in the 3rd Edina pushed him around way to easily.

[The51]

i just found this website its pretty good

http://www.geocities.com/minhshockey/

[black sheep]

ewe all missed the point.......rankings and polls were devised to create conversion about sporting seasons until the playoffs begin. based on the anger it often generates, ewe can see it's success.

on to BADH....I'd take Roseaus 2007 ranking over the 2008. The fact remains, if your team is hanging around in the top ten of the rankings, be happy, you can beat any other team on any day. thats why they play the games.

[youngblood08]

What about Northern Lakes? 10-0 and not even a mention in here. Come on show the love.

[Pucklvr]

Red Lake Falls beat them in the Tourney this weekend so, RLF is class A that should at least move them up a bit for beating a class AA school

[karl(east)]

ewe all missed the point.......rankings and polls were devised to create conversion about sporting seasons until the playoffs begin. based on the anger it often generates, ewe can see it's success.

That hits the nail on the head. They're fun to make and fun to talk about, and sometimes some very interesting things come out of the debates.

[northhockey23]

back to the rankings...
1.Edina
2.Centennial
3.Duluth East
4.Bloom. Jefferson
5.Hill Murray
6.EP
7.Holy Angels
8.Tonka
9.Blaine
10.Wayzata

[karl(east)]

A revision, following tonight's results:

1. Edina (7-1)
2. Bloomington Jefferson (2-0)
3. Centennial (1-0-1)
4. Hill-Murray (2-2)
5. Duluth East (3-0-1)
6. Holy Angels (0-1)
7. Eden Prairie (1-2)
8. Minnetonka (1-3)
9. Blaine (0-1)
10. Wayzata (1-3-1)
11. Woodbury (0-1)
12. Maple Grove (0-0-1)
13. Benilde-St. Margaret's (2-1)
14. Moorhead (0-3)
15. Cretin-Derham Hall (0-2)

EP drops five slots after their loss to Jefferson, which asserts itself a bit with the win tonight. WBL, suffering an upset at the hands of Stillwater, drops from the rankings, while CDH jumps in. The records against the top 15 have been changed accordingly (a fair number of wins disappeared now that WBL is no longer up there...)

[Mr.swampdonky]

I still think Ep should be ranked infront of Tonka.

[Papa Bergundy]

I think Karl should be doing the LPH rankings cause they are not very good at all.

[karl(east)]

I still think Ep should be ranked infront of Tonka.

Yes, good catch, I realized that a bit after I posted this. They should be switched.

[Duluth 4]

I think Karl should be doing the LPH rankings cause they are not very good at all.

After all the work he put in to these, just because your team is not in them does not make the rankings bad. You do something remotely as deep and justified as this, then we can talk.

[DmanDad1980]

Thanks for doing this Karl!

You have put a lot of work into this and I like what I see...
Keep it rolling

[scotsmen76]

Hopkins is a top ten team when Fons plays. They have played the back up goalie in 2 of the losses and he is terrible. The one loss Fons played was in Hermantown and it is a tough place to win.

[oneIdmonsta]

u must be kidding? which of those top 10 do you think hopkins would beat out duluth east, hill, EP, Jefferson, edina hopkins isn't even close to the same league as those teams.

and what is the new crap about jefferson gunna be since they have now beaten a really good team why are they so bad now?

[Mr.swampdonky]

oneIdmonsta: I dont see any crap about Jefferson, they're a real good team. I think they're ranked second becasue only Edina has played better teams. It would be awsome to see Jefferson go Undefeated.

[Dazed&Confused]

Jefferson has a cupcake schedule. They most likely will get knocked out in sections