The Exiled One wrote:I don't know what they're thinking when they vote, but Spehar and Guyer were undrafted. Pohl went 255th overall in the 9th round in the same year that Pat O'Leary was taken in the 3rd round at 73rd overall. Just sayin' there's precendent for a player like Hanowski to win it.
I never brought up draft status as the main factor. Nor did I mean to imply that the guy who is likely to be picked highest would be the winner. Obviously we know that isn't always the case.
I simply stated they don't get caught up in the stats as a main factor like some fans do. Fans get caught up in box scores. Scouts don't tend to look at it quite that shallow.
As for some of the names you mentioned, you also have to remember that Spehar and Pohl were the main figures on state championship teams in their junior year. Right or wrong, that is going to have some influence on voters since it gives them a leg up from the get go as a senior.
PS - Guyer was a 5th rounder for Dallas.
Doh! (though Backes went in the 2nd round)
I think you're right about the top players on the top teams, and I think that will definately come into play. It's unlikely, but possible, that Jefferson knocks off both Edina and AHA. Eden Prarie could possible get dusted by Minnetonka or Wayzata. Little Falls has a much easier road to state. Sure, the odds are against that exact scenario, but you'd have to admit that would significantly increase Hano's odds, right?
breakout wrote:If Lee is that good of a player the U would have offered him a deal. Mr. Lucia & Mr. Hill have seen him many times. Mr. Guentzel has seen him many times. He was draft eligible last year and went un-drafted. Not sure if he is the best forward on Edina. Mr. Everson would probably argue that one.
The U doesn't have infinite scholarships either. There are good players that go elsewhere without an offer from the hometown team. Gorowsky was a similar style player (physical player, top team, good production)... yet no offer from the U but won it. He was anything but a high pick too.
I am not saying Lee should win. I am simply stating the circumstances he is in (tough schedule, top team, good production) will make him a strong candidate.
I am a big Everson fan. Very nice sniper. I just feel Lee is the more valuable player of the two and he certainly has garnered more attention because of his overall athletic endeavors.
The knock on Gorowsky is that he is not a good skater. That is why his PT has suffered with the Badgers. Not sure he would have been a good fit for the U.
My ten finalists for '08-'09 Mr. hockey:
Ben Hanowski, Little Falls
Aaron Jamnick, Hibbing
Tyler Pitlick, Centennial
Marshall Everson, Edina
Anders Lee, Edina
Danny Mattson, Academy of Holy Angels
Nick Leddy, Eden Prairie
Tyler Zepeda, Hill-Murray
Max Tardy, Duluth East
Sam Coatta, Minnetonka
It's hard to choose one from that list. For me it comes down to Hanowski, Lee and Leddy. I like Forbort in '09-'10 and Bjugstad in '10-'11 if they stay, which I doubt.
breakout wrote:Disagree on exposure being the answer. Top forwards are out every other shift like top D. Was Baker out on the ice more than Everson, Budish and Lee in State Tournament last year? If so, not by much.
First, I didn't say it was "the answer". I believe it is a part of the equation.
Most teams I watch play three lines (though they shorten the bench when the situation warrants it). A top defenseman that can play both ends of the rink well tend to play more (in my experience watching HS hockey over the years).
Baker and Gleason were out there every other shift, every period in the state tournament. Edina went three lines for the first two periods of every game and then made changes, but only went 2 defense pairings.
MNHockey75 wrote:My ten finalists for '08-'09 Mr. hockey:
Ben Hanowski, Little Falls
Aaron Jamnick, Hibbing
Tyler Pitlick, Centennial
Marshall Everson, Edina
Anders Lee, Edina
Danny Mattson, Academy of Holy Angels
Nick Leddy, Eden Prairie
Tyler Zepeda, Hill-Murray
Max Tardy, Duluth East
Sam Coatta, Minnetonka
It's hard to choose one from that list. For me it comes down to Hanowski, Lee and Leddy. I like Forbort in '09-'10 and Bjugstad in '10-'11 if they stay, which I doubt.
I agree with Hanowski, Lee, and Leddy. If Hanowski breaks the point total he wins. If he doesn't he won't and I would give it to Leddy.
The Exiled One wrote:I think the scouts will favor Leddy. Without Budish, Nick probably has the best projected pro upside. However, I don't think anybody would cry foul if Hano or Mattson won it. Lee and Everson are right there too, but they kind of cancel eachother out. This isn't my vote, but in my opinion, I think the votes will play out this way...
1a. Hanowski (45th)
1b. Leddy (25th)
3. Mattson (57th)
4. Lee (70th)
5. Everson (123rd)
6. Pitlick
A top flight defensemen can play the vast majority of the game (even more so than a lot of top forward) and I think the added opportunity to show their stuff doesn't hurt. That is probably one big reason why there has been a bit of a trend. Of course, you also have to consider the defensive talent as a whole has been excellent.
I think the big issue for Hanowski is that scouts don't focus on stat lines like the fans do. Even if he breaks the state scoring record, scouts don't get caught up in the numbers when they break down player attributes.
Fair or not, the competition variable will also likely play a part in the voting (which probably plays a role in the lack of Class A winners). It is easier for a scout to justify voting for a guy that plays/excels against a more difficult schedule than it is a guy that plays/excels against a mostly weak schedule.
Personally, I think Leddy and Mattson have a better chance at winning it than Hanowski. Maybe even Lee depending on how Edina continues to play. It is hard to deny the best player on the best team (which Edina clearly is to this point). His candidacy probably wouldn't be hurt by the overall athlete angle either.
nikebauer_07 wrote:
Did not winning Mr. Hockey make you this angry?
Don't you think if you let players decide they'll all vote for their teammates and friends? There are going to be politics however you look at it and I think they've been doing a good job the way it is. Get over it.
Mr Hockey --Me? No. I couldn't wear the jock of the top 50 players in this state. But I do know good ones when I see them. Maybe that is my problem. I'm impressed with too many of them.
I think the players might surprise you with their votes (and wouldn't that be the point). Hockey players are pretty level headed that way. Let's do both for a few years and see who does a better job. It might be interesting.
So who do you think deserves Mr. Hockey? Or has in the past? Just curious.
I'm sure you expected this, but, I think it's irrelevant. I think there are 10 at least who could and should be awarded this. I don't think there is just one. Like I said, six positions with dynamic measurements at each, many that we don't even measure. And, there are at least 5 deserivng players at each position. That is why I don't like the award, in addition to it being influenced by NHL scouts. The Goalie from Eastview is a good example. He may be every bit as deserving but won't even get mentioned. The NHL will dismiss him because of height, but does that mean he isn't Mr. Hockey? I thought this was a high school award not a draft preview. His team loses 3 or 4 to nothing instead of 8 or 9 to nothing and I didn't see his name on any ofthe lists you guys put together. Not even a mention. Like many of you said, he can't control where he plays but you guys all sure give the high scorers with easy schdules a pass and add them to your list but he is somehow not even in the conversation. That is why I think the award needs work.
Danny Mattson is the most valuable player to his team,but based on stats and how good the team will be i'd have to say Anders Lee will win it this year
cctndr30 wrote:
Mr Hockey --Me? No. I couldn't wear the jock of the top 50 players in this state. But I do know good ones when I see them. Maybe that is my problem. I'm impressed with too many of them.
I think the players might surprise you with their votes (and wouldn't that be the point). Hockey players are pretty level headed that way. Let's do both for a few years and see who does a better job. It might be interesting.
So who do you think deserves Mr. Hockey? Or has in the past? Just curious.
I'm sure you expected this, but, I think it's irrelevant. I think there are 10 at least who could and should be awarded this. I don't think there is just one. Like I said, six positions with dynamic measurements at each, many that we don't even measure. And, there are at least 5 deserivng players at each position. That is why I don't like the award, in addition to it being influenced by NHL scouts. The Goalie from Eastview is a good example. He may be every bit as deserving but won't even get mentioned. The NHL will dismiss him because of height, but does that mean he isn't Mr. Hockey? I thought this was a high school award not a draft preview. His team loses 3 or 4 to nothing instead of 8 or 9 to nothing and I didn't see his name on any ofthe lists you guys put together. Not even a mention. Like many of you said, he can't control where he plays but you guys all sure give the high scorers with easy schdules a pass and add them to your list but he is somehow not even in the conversation. That is why I think the award needs work.
Isn't the Frank Brimsek award for goaltenders? How many goalies have won Mr. Hockey in the past? It's hard to argue many of the past award winners by saying they rack up points against weak teams when many have played for top programs in the state. Sure some kids won't get considered but that's how life is.
nikebauer_07 wrote:
So who do you think deserves Mr. Hockey? Or has in the past? Just curious.
I'm sure you expected this, but, I think it's irrelevant. I think there are 10 at least who could and should be awarded this. I don't think there is just one. Like I said, six positions with dynamic measurements at each, many that we don't even measure. And, there are at least 5 deserivng players at each position. That is why I don't like the award, in addition to it being influenced by NHL scouts. The Goalie from Eastview is a good example. He may be every bit as deserving but won't even get mentioned. The NHL will dismiss him because of height, but does that mean he isn't Mr. Hockey? I thought this was a high school award not a draft preview. His team loses 3 or 4 to nothing instead of 8 or 9 to nothing and I didn't see his name on any ofthe lists you guys put together. Not even a mention. Like many of you said, he can't control where he plays but you guys all sure give the high scorers with easy schdules a pass and add them to your list but he is somehow not even in the conversation. That is why I think the award needs work.
Isn't the Frank Brimsek award for goaltenders? How many goalies have won Mr. Hockey in the past? It's hard to argue many of the past award winners by saying they rack up points against weak teams when many have played for top programs in the state. Sure some kids won't get considered but that's how life is.
You are like a Liberal democrat. You have a view therefore "reading" my comments didn't occur to you, but finding another reason for them not to be valid was the concern. I didn't say that those who have won weren't worthy. On the contrary, they may have been as well as at least 20 others and that is my point. It is because so many are also worthy that I don't like the award and absolutely hate that the NHL is involved. Some players who make their teams respectable versus below average have no chance and that doesn't sit well with me.
You must, based on your comments, also believe that Adrian Peterson shouldn't be even considered for MVP since he can be considered for Offensive player of the year. No sense at all.
I found out the eastview goalie is named O'Shea. Why would he not be on anyone's list when everyone thinks he is a top quality player. Is it because he didn't get to choose who he played for and they are completely crappy and he makes them respectable? Sounds pretty much like why the high scorers with easy schedules get a pass for being worthy only: NOT.
nikebauer_07 wrote:
Isn't the Frank Brimsek award for goaltenders? How many goalies have won Mr. Hockey in the past? It's hard to argue many of the past award winners by saying they rack up points against weak teams when many have played for top programs in the state. Sure some kids won't get considered but that's how life is.
You are like a Liberal democrat. You have a view therefore "reading" my comments didn't occur to you, but finding another reason for them not to be valid was the concern. I didn't say that those who have won weren't worthy. On the contrary, they may have been as well as at least 20 others and that is my point. It is because so many are also worthy that I don't like the award and absolutely hate that the NHL is involved. Some players who make their teams respectable versus below average have no chance and that doesn't sit well with me.
You must, based on your comments, also believe that Adrian Peterson shouldn't be even considered for MVP since he can be considered for Offensive player of the year. No sense at all.
I found out the eastview goalie is named O'Shea. Why would he not be on anyone's list when everyone thinks he is a top quality player. Is it because he didn't get to choose who he played for and they are completely crappy and he makes them respectable? Sounds pretty much like why the high scorers with easy schedules get a pass for being worthy only: NOT.
Because goalies aren't eligible for Mr. Hockey. The top senior goalie is awarded the Frank Brimsek Award.
I was wondering when someone would catch this. Another reason the Mr. Hockey award is broken. A goalie isn't smart enough, classy enough, what could possibly keep a goalie from winning both awards? I'm guessing based on your logic that Robb Stauber is proof enough why a goalie shouldn't be considered the "best" player in the state because he wasn't a forward or defenseman. And let's be clear. Mr Hockey is a "best in state" designation. If you are going to have it at all, it is wrong goalies aren't included.
The Mr. Hockey Award is given to the outstanding senior high school hockey player in the state of Minnesota and is selected by a panel of National Hockey League Scouts, Division One coaches and selected media members from around the state. Ryan McDonagh from Cretin-Derham Hall was the 2007 Mr. Hockey Award recipient. Three other awards will be presented at the banquet: The Frank Brimsek Award, The John Mariucci Award, given to the Class A and Class AA high school coaches of the year and The Cliff Thompson Award, presented to the “Old Timer Coach” of the year.
From the Mr. Hockey Website, also, O'Shea is only a junior.
[quote="scoreboard33"]The Mr. Hockey Award is given to the outstanding senior high school hockey player in the state of Minnesota and is selected by a panel of National Hockey League Scouts, Division One coaches and selected media members from around the state. Ryan McDonagh from Cretin-Derham Hall was the 2007 Mr. Hockey Award recipient. Three other awards will be presented at the banquet: The Frank Brimsek Award, The John Mariucci Award, given to the Class A and Class AA high school coaches of the year and The Cliff Thompson Award, presented to the “Old Timer Coach” of the year.
From the Mr. Hockey Website, also, O'Shea is only a junior. Agreed, does it mean he is not the bes?
cctndr30 wrote:
You are like a Liberal democrat. You have a view therefore "reading" my comments didn't occur to you, but finding another reason for them not to be valid was the concern. I didn't say that those who have won weren't worthy. On the contrary, they may have been as well as at least 20 others and that is my point. It is because so many are also worthy that I don't like the award and absolutely hate that the NHL is involved. Some players who make their teams respectable versus below average have no chance and that doesn't sit well with me.
You must, based on your comments, also believe that Adrian Peterson shouldn't be even considered for MVP since he can be considered for Offensive player of the year. No sense at all.
I found out the eastview goalie is named O'Shea. Why would he not be on anyone's list when everyone thinks he is a top quality player. Is it because he didn't get to choose who he played for and they are completely crappy and he makes them respectable? Sounds pretty much like why the high scorers with easy schedules get a pass for being worthy only: NOT.
Because goalies aren't eligible for Mr. Hockey. The top senior goalie is awarded the Frank Brimsek Award.
I was wondering when someone would catch this. Another reason the Mr. Hockey award is broken. A goalie isn't smart enough, classy enough, what could possibly keep a goalie from winning both awards? I'm guessing based on your logic that Robb Stauber is proof enough why a goalie shouldn't be considered the "best" player in the state because he wasn't a forward or defenseman. And let's be clear. Mr Hockey is a "best in state" designation. If you are going to have it at all, it is wrong goalies aren't included.
I am far from a liberal democrat. Wouldn't a liberal democrat want it to be "fair" and have "everyone" win. And did I not catch the Brimsek award? I guess you must have missed that, too. Why should the goalie win both awards? A forward or defenseman can't win the Brimsek award, therefore, Mr. Hockey is given to a forward or D man. Keep tootin' your horn for Eastview though.
scoreboard33 wrote:The Mr. Hockey Award is given to the outstanding senior high school hockey player in the state of Minnesota and is selected by a panel of National Hockey League Scouts, Division One coaches and selected media members from around the state. Ryan McDonagh from Cretin-Derham Hall was the 2007 Mr. Hockey Award recipient. Three other awards will be presented at the banquet: The Frank Brimsek Award, The John Mariucci Award, given to the Class A and Class AA high school coaches of the year and The Cliff Thompson Award, presented to the “Old Timer Coach” of the year.
From the Mr. Hockey Website, also, O'Shea is only a junior. Agreed, does it mean he is not the bes?
I am not sure he is the bes in his class let alone bes in the state.
If he is, Select camp will be a good place to prove it.
How can you say O'Shea from Eastview should be mentioned more? He plays on a terrible team and he isn't anything special either. Against good teams he'll give up 5 goals.
As for Mr. Hockey, I don't think a defensemen will win it. Leddy is the best D candidate but i don't see him winning it. I like Lee to win it.
As for Nick Mattson and Hanowski, they beat teams by double digits in their weak schedule so they just rack up points.
PrivatePunisher13 wrote:How can you say O'Shea from Eastview should be mentioned more? He plays on a terrible team and he isn't anything special either. Against good teams he'll give up 5 goals.
As for Mr. Hockey, I don't think a defensemen will win it. Leddy is the best D candidate but i don't see him winning it. I like Lee to win it.
As for Nick Mattson and Hanowski, they beat teams by double digits in their weak schedule so they just rack up points.
Why do people seem to leave out Dan DeLisle form Totino-Grace on all these lists? He was an "A" player on the NHL draft list and mid-term he is in top 120 Skaters for the draft. He is going right to the WCHA next year. and not having that bad of a season this year with 37 points in 13 games........
Why isnt he on these lists for Mr.Hockey??
Delisle should definitely be on these lists. I'm certain he'll be a finalist come March.
I don't know a ton about him, where has he committed to for next year?
I will say that with less exposure and a weaker schedule than players like Lee and Leddy, it may be harder for him to win it, but I don't count him out at all.
Not sure when the voting for the award happens, but I'd say he has to have a remarkable second half with a trip to State.
scoreboard33 wrote:The Mr. Hockey Award is given to the outstanding senior high school hockey player in the state of Minnesota and is selected by a panel of National Hockey League Scouts, Division One coaches and selected media members from around the state. Ryan McDonagh from Cretin-Derham Hall was the 2007 Mr. Hockey Award recipient. Three other awards will be presented at the banquet: The Frank Brimsek Award, The John Mariucci Award, given to the Class A and Class AA high school coaches of the year and The Cliff Thompson Award, presented to the “Old Timer Coach” of the year.
From the Mr. Hockey Website, also, O'Shea is only a junior. Agreed, does it mean he is not the bes?
I am not sure he is the bes in his class let alone bes in the state.
If he is, Select camp will be a good place to prove it.
I only have full use of one hand. I'll make a few spelling errors. sorry.
breakout wrote:Disagree on exposure being the answer. Top forwards are out every other shift like top D. Was Baker out on the ice more than Everson, Budish and Lee in State Tournament last year? If so, not by much.
First, I didn't say it was "the answer". I believe it is a part of the equation.
Most teams I watch play three lines (though they shorten the bench when the situation warrants it). A top defenseman that can play both ends of the rink well tend to play more (in my experience watching HS hockey over the years).
I think the people voting on the award are smart enough to vote for a player based on talent and performance alone. The amount of time a player spends on the ice each game improves their chances, but it basically just shows how dominant they really are, meaning if they can dominate for 50% of the game vs. 33%, then they're that much MORE dominant.
I like that the voting is based on a number of different factors, and I believe the award is extremely fair. I also think that the award is completely up for grabs right now, and will be until the very end. There is no front-runner IMO. If I had to pick three finalists it'd be Leddy, Hanowski, Lee.
Not too bad.