Class A rankings (1-12-09)

[hshckfan08]

hshckfan08, the team's schedule is what makes everything. To use an analogy here, at the beginning of the NCAA season The Air Force Academy went 12-0 then the following weekend beat Colorado, lost to Denver and made it to 13-1. They never cracked the top 9 in this whole time. Why is that? Because of their schedule. They could've probably won out and made it maybe as high as #6. Where as a team like MN can lose both their games in a weekend and only drop a couple spots. Strength of schedule matters.

Little Falls has 18 games tied up in conference games. Scheduling a few section games makes sense and they schedule SCC, then host a tourney, so that leaves one game and they schedule Brainerd. They need to make some decisions, maybe invite better teams to the tourney, or something. I remember two years ago (as I said) when Little Falls was winning a lot of their games and no one was giving them credit because of their schedule. Now they still have the same weak schedule, plus SCC, and we are supposed cut them slack?

Yes, St Thomas does have a tough schedule. They play is a pretty good section, in the Schwan Cup and schedule good A and AA non-conference teams. Shins, you are acting like St Thomas is the only school schedule should matter for. Schedule is the reason Edina is ranked over the undefeated Jefferson. Losses to good teams do matter. Holy Angels is a top 5 team in state. In the two games I saw Centennial play, I wasn't impressed, but they played better than St Thomas did, and that's what matters. Schedule is the reason an 11-1 Hutchinson is no where on anyone's radar. Schedule matters, period.
St Thomas beat Hill before they lost the players, which some could argue would make them play better if they knew something was coming.

In the end, as has been said before, rankings only really matter come March, I just think it's really backwards to be saying the exact opposite thing people have been saying for so long simply because they want two schools to be in a certain spot because of who they are.

Everything?? You are ridiculous...

Obviously if a team plays 10 games in a season and plays 10 top 20 teams and beats all of them, they are undisputedly going to be number 1. What happens when a team plays 1 or 2 top teams and beats them and that same team that plays all the top teams loses to a good number of them. That would be the case in arguing little falls and st thomas (who i think just dropped with their recent tie). Little falls has handled their cake schedule and st thomas has had some hiccups on theirs. Who is to say little falls wouldnt have done better with that schedule? As we have seen in the state tournament in the past few years, little falls has been able to play with all the teams with good schedules, and could have beaten hermantown and sta in the semi's.

And it looks like 11-1 Hutchinson is now on the radar............

[HShockeywatcher]

I'm ridiculous? TheBlizzard agrees with what I was saying. It's what people say every year in every sport at every level.

What are these hiccups you are referring to? The first game of the season or their losses to top 5 AA teams?

Little Falls has played with, you are right, but has yet to beat the top teams.

Oh wow, Hutch is now #15. I'm really confused here, Hutch whose only loss is to AHA playing a cake schedule is at #15 while Little Falls' cake schedule puts them at #1. Good logic there.

[defense]

I have not seen them play. But how does not thinking they should be #1 mean I don't think they should amount to anything? I am simply questioning the logic of people out there. SOS matters. Period. End of Story. And that is being ignored here.

The Gophers won 8-6 last night. You don't need defense to play great every night, if you can put up 11 it's okay to let in 10. I'm simply saying they have yet to prove that they can a. put up 11 against good competition or b. not let in 10 against good competition.
I think it's funny that myFOXhockey has Edina #1 but Little Falls #1 as well in Class A.

Maybe I should clarify: I am not of the opinion that Little Falls has a "cake schedule", that the Central Lakes Conference is "weak". or that their strength of schedule should be a real issue here. its not like they're playing in the Mid State for crissakes as was Wadena a few years ago when they went undefeated. Little Falls has so far rattled off a nice win steak against some solid programs. Is St. Thomas' scheduel tougher??? most likely, but would you tell me that Little Falls wouldn't perform the same or better??? Can you honestly say that St. Thomas would perform the same or better in Little Falls' schedule?? You see, schedule is NOT being ignored here, if Little Falls had lost a few, they likely are not in the top 5, they haven't. Being they haven't lost a game, but St. Thomas has against top teams, people must have seen them play. See what you are forgetting here is that strength of schedule is not EVERYTHING, especially when it is average or better......at least I hope the pollsters or anyone unrelated who choses to ponder this doesn't just look at strength of schedule and record....

[TheBlizzard]

Im really not sure what the argument is here; almost all sports which use "rankings" take strength of schedule into consideration. If Little Falls has played all crap teams this year and has a great record but has yet to be tested against a formittable opponent its hard to tell if they deserve that top spot and its not saying they don't.

Take Red Wing for example; some polls have them at 14 or 15; their record is 9-6 I believe. They are the only ranked team that has that many loses; why? Because their loses are to the Holy Angels, Breck, Lourdes, Totino Grace, Mahtomedi, and South Saint Paul. Furthermore almost all of those games were 1 or 2 goal games that could have went either way. This week they play New Praque so it doesn't get any better.

But that is why they are ranking in my opinion; if they played teams like Shakopee or Farmington all year they would be undeafted too.

I would be willing to bet if Little Falls had a tough schedule like that they would not be undefeated.

[TheBlizzard]

Little Falls is/could be everything they are hyped up to be, but until they beat someone that is decent I think the #1 rank is a bit off. They have had some near mishaps of late against some crap teams, but have bounced back and creamed a few of them.

The proof is in the pudding, wait until the post season, then all this banter doesn't matter; all the teams that schedule is cake will get exposed in the playoffs and then we can all either eat our words or be like "see I told you they are not as good as people thought they were".

[TheBlizzard]

Oh wow, Hutch is now #15. I'm really confused here, Hutch whose only loss is to AHA playing a cake schedule is at #15 while Little Falls' cake schedule puts them at #1. Good logic there.

Agreed. Doesn't make sense.

[defense]

Im really not sure what the argument is here; almost all sports which use "rankings" take strength of schedule into consideration. If Little Falls has played all crap teams this year and has a great record but has yet to be tested against a formittable opponent its hard to tell if they deserve that top spot and its not saying they don't.

Take Red Wing for example; some polls have them at 14 or 15; their record is 9-6 I believe. They are the only ranked team that has that many loses; why? Because their loses are to the Holy Angels, Breck, Lourdes, Totino Grace, Mahtomedi, and South Saint Paul. Furthermore almost all of those games were 1 or 2 goal games that could have went either way. This week they play New Praque so it doesn't get any better.

But that is why they are ranking in my opinion; if they played teams like Shakopee or Farmington all year they would be undeafted too.

I would be willing to bet if Little Falls had a tough schedule like that they would not be undefeated.

The argument here is: Strength of Schedule is the ONLY thing that you guys are considering....

[TheBlizzard]

As far as rankings go yes that has almost everything to do with them; otherwise what do you base it off? I could really care less about the rankings myself because the playoffs will show who is good or who isn't.

One thing I do believe though is that some of these teams that don't have a undefeated record but have played some of the power houses will be way better equiped come playoff time. The teams that stacked their record playing sub par teams are going to get a rude awakening a few games into the playoffs.

That can't be denied in hockey; playing against better opponents only makes you better. Playing against teams that not even as good as most teams Bantams will not get you anywhere come playoff time. FACT!

[defense]

As far as rankings go yes that has almost everything to do with them; otherwise what do you base it off? I could really care less about the rankings myself because the playoffs will show who is good or who isn't.

One thing I do believe though is that some of these teams that don't have a undefeated record but have played some of the power houses will be way better equiped come playoff time. The teams that stacked their record playing sub par teams are going to get a rude awakening a few games into the playoffs.

That can't be denied in hockey; playing against better opponents only makes you better. Playing against teams that not even as good as most teams Bantams will not get you anywhere come playoff time. FACT!

Little Falls should be OK then since the ko'd.....Virginia, Alexandria, St. Cloud Cathedral, Sartell(ranked in Follow the puck......
ps: If you don't care about rankings, why are you posting on this thread??

[TheBlizzard]

I care about the rankings cause its fun to see what the critics think about certain teams, and to listen to people bitch because their favorite team is not ranked, otherwise they don't mean all that much. Sometimes rankings are legit and other times they are not.

[Mite-dad]

As far as rankings go yes that has almost everything to do with them; otherwise what do you base it off? I could really care less about the rankings myself because the playoffs will show who is good or who isn't.

One thing I do believe though is that some of these teams that don't have a undefeated record but have played some of the power houses will be way better equiped come playoff time. The teams that stacked their record playing sub par teams are going to get a rude awakening a few games into the playoffs.

That can't be denied in hockey; playing against better opponents only makes you better. Playing against teams that not even as good as most teams Bantams will not get you anywhere come playoff time. FACT!

Little Falls should be OK then since the ko'd.....Virginia, Alexandria, St. Cloud Cathedral, Sartell(ranked in Follow the puck......
ps: If you don't care about rankings, why are you posting on this thread??

Add New Prague to that list.

[defense]

I care about the rankings cause its fun to see what the critics think about certain teams, and to listen to people bitch because their favorite team is not ranked, otherwise they don't mean all that much. Sometimes rankings are legit and other times they are not.

So you do care about the rankings then????

[HShockeywatcher]

No, defense, it isn't the ONLY thing that matters. That has never come out of either of our posts.
What does matter is how you do with who you play. Little Falls is beating mediocre teams by 1 and 2 goal margins. And they are taking 3 and 4 GA often. In one 5 game stretch they allowed 17 GA, two of whom being Sartell and Fairbault. St Thomas allowed 19 in a 5 game stretch with the two worst teams being Richfield (back up goalie) and Moorhead.

According to PS2's SOS St Thomas is #8, while Little Falls is #65. You're right, we cannot really know how one team would do with another team's schedule, but it is these kinds of numbers we compare.

You can cut the cake anyway you like it, but with your reasoning Hutch should've been sitting at #2 for the first part of the season and maybe now dropped a few spots. But they weren't/aren't because they play a weak schedule also.
This is the same logic and reasoning behind why everyone is giving Edina the nod over Jefferson, and in Jefferson's case they at least have a couple of quality opponents on their schedule.

In the end it doesn't matter, but two reasons I care:
1. In trying to have an intelligent discussion with others it is backward for people to not follow (or respond to) the same logic they were using in the past. ie. two years ago not giving any credit to little falls because of their sos.
2. State is seeded.

[MNHockey75]

Have some of you people seen Ben Hanowski play? I have no problem putting Little Falls at #1 at this stage, just because of him. He is the best player, hands down, in the state (Class A). The Flyers are going to be undefeated going into the state tournament and we'll see what they're made of. They were the second best team in the state come early March last year.

[defense]

No, defense, it isn't the ONLY thing that matters. That has never come out of either of our posts.
What does matter is how you do with who you play. Little Falls is beating mediocre teams by 1 and 2 goal margins. And they are taking 3 and 4 GA often. In one 5 game stretch they allowed 17 GA, two of whom being Sartell and Fairbault. St Thomas allowed 19 in a 5 game stretch with the two worst teams being Richfield (back up goalie) and Moorhead.

According to PS2's SOS St Thomas is #8, while Little Falls is #65. You're right, we cannot really know how one team would do with another team's schedule, but it is these kinds of numbers we compare.

You can cut the cake anyway you like it, but with your reasoning Hutch should've been sitting at #2 for the first part of the season and maybe now dropped a few spots. But they weren't/aren't because they play a weak schedule also.
This is the same logic and reasoning behind why everyone is giving Edina the nod over Jefferson, and in Jefferson's case they at least have a couple of quality opponents on their schedule.

In the end it doesn't matter, but two reasons I care:
1. In trying to have an intelligent discussion with others it is backward for people to not follow (or respond to) the same logic they were using in the past. ie. two years ago not giving any credit to little falls because of their sos.
2. State is seeded.

I like substance, thank you...by the way it was that Blizzard guy who said he doesn't care about the rankings, not you. I assume that with the coment on Hutchinson, you mean that I think that records are everything, I don't know where that came from so I'll leave it alone. However you said that people are ignoring SOS. Probably not since a 3 loss St. Thomas team is in the top 5 of anyone's rankings and top 2 in the biggest, ditto for LF. The point is Little Falls is undefeated in a weaker (notice "weaker" NOT cake or crap)schedule than St. Thomas'. St. Thomas has lost 3 in a tougher schedule. If you add the little fact of record to SOS, it brings St. Thomas down and LF up. In the end, some polsters must have seen LF play a few times... I adressed the so called "cake" schedule of LF in my last response to you and other posts. If we need to beat up the SOS some more, I guess I really wouldn't say that Richfield and Moorhead are not mediocre teams....actually I don't know who would win if Moorhead played Sartell. Have you looked at LF's schedule??? obviously you have, wich leads me to believe that the debate that I was having with intelligent objectional people was actually an argument with someone who is hellbent on the Twin Cities hockey is much better than outstate.......which is hopeless.

[Goldy23]

Have some of you people seen Ben Hanowski play? I have no problem putting Little Falls at #1 at this stage, just because of him. He is the best player, hands down, in the state (Class A). The Flyers are going to be undefeated going into the state tournament and we'll see what they're made of. They were the second best team in the state come early March last year.

I've not seen Ben this year but have seen him the two previous. He is an excellent player and deserves the attention he is getting. I do however disagree with your judgement that "just because of him" they should be ranked #1. Bottom line is in hockey, great teams will almost always beat great players and beyond Ben, I just don't think they have the depth of talent that STA, Breck and maybe even Warroad have. We will likely get the chance to see them at state once again, but will be surprised if they can get past some of the deeper teams to take home the hardware.

[hshckfan08]

Ok first, thank you defense for actually knowing how to read and comprehend.
WOW hockeywatcher, must be the first time someone has agreed with you on something!
Yes, hiccups would be losses
As defense pointed out, i am not saying schedule isnt important, but since St thomas has lost to 3 teams and just tied south st paul, and little falls has taken care of every team presented to them, and on top of that it is obvious they can play with the best A teams in the state based on their performance in the state tournament as well as beating good A teams this year, who is to say they wouldnt have done better with a more difficult schedule.
Your brain runs like an ancient computer running with DOS. You haven't learned anything in the past 2 years... You look at some numbers that a computer spits out instead of thinking. You might as well just have rankings be SOS in your case. Two years ago, Little falls was untested. Obviously they were taken lightly because they hadnt been tested at the state level. 2 years later, people have seen that they can compete with the best teams, even with an average schedule.

"it isn't the ONLY thing that matters. That has never come out of either of our posts. "
Once again, try reading what you write. You said this a couple days ago in the beginning of your post, "hshckfan08, the team's schedule is what makes everything".


As for the Hutchinson comment, i should have refrained knowing that you like to think i said random additional things i never said. (like record is the only thing that matters, as that is what you are implying). To save you some time, you said, "Schedule is the reason an 11-1 Hutchinson is no where on anyone's radar". Upon seeing the new rankings in which Hutchinson in ranked 15, i said, "and it looks like 11-1 Hutchinson is now on the radar............"
Radar meaning rankings........

My logic (i cant believe im explaining again), in the simple case of one team, Little falls, is that because they have responded well to good teams in the last 2 years with the state tournament, and have good players returning, they should be considered an elite team because they have beaten every single team they have played this year. This includes playing and beating teams defense listed.

[elliott70]

[quote="HShockeywatcher"] Little Falls is beating mediocre teams by 1 and 2 goal margins. And they are taking 3 and 4 GA often. In one 5 game stretch they allowed 17 GA, two of whom being Sartell and Fairbault.

Virginia/Mt Iron-Buhl 1 - 0 W *
Greenway / Nash-Kee 14 - 0 W
Saint Cloud Cathedral 5 - 4 W *
Alexandria 4 - 3 W *
Sartell-Saint Stephen 4 - 3 W *
Sauk Rapids-Rice 9 - 3 W
Faribault 9 - 4 W
Prior Lake 7 - 1 W
New Prague 5 - 0 W *
Brainerd/Pillager/Pierz 5 - 3 W **
River Lakes Stars 7 - 0 W

* Not mediocre team. New Prague is mentioned as a tought team on the Red Wing schedule.
** Mediocore AA team but a big rivalry game also.

They pounded the rest.

[elliott70]

You are talking about Red Wings quality losses, but where are their quality wins. 2 or 3 nice wins but nothing that impressive.

They lost to Lourdes, who lost to the #4 team in Section 7A.

Little Falls doe not have a tough schedule game in and game out, but they have beat tough teams and pounded the weak teams.
You can talk about a few goals given up in those games but that is meaningless.

Little Falls deserves a high ranking.

[elliott70]

In all rankings (computer or otherwise) the bias of the ranker has to be factored in, as well as the bias of those critiquing the rankings.

[MNHockey75]

Have some of you people seen Ben Hanowski play? I have no problem putting Little Falls at #1 at this stage, just because of him. He is the best player, hands down, in the state (Class A). The Flyers are going to be undefeated going into the state tournament and we'll see what they're made of. They were the second best team in the state come early March last year.

I've not seen Ben this year but have seen him the two previous. He is an excellent player and deserves the attention he is getting. I do however disagree with your judgement that "just because of him" they should be ranked #1. Bottom line is in hockey, great teams will almost always beat great players and beyond Ben, I just don't think they have the depth of talent that STA, Breck and maybe even Warroad have. We will likely get the chance to see them at state once again, but will be surprised if they can get past some of the deeper teams to take home the hardware.

I can't think of one team in the state, A or AA, that would be more affected if one kid was absent. Berglund and Nelson are also pretty good, especially Berglund. But without Hanowski, they don't make it past Alex. But they do have Hanowski, and after they're 28-0 and headed to state, we'll see if he can work his magic. They should be ranked this year and have a much better chance to make it into the semi's at least.

Even after Little Falls goes 28-0. St. Thomas Academy will get the #1 seed if they stay on track and make it there. I'm farely certain Breck, Warroad, and Hermantown/SCC will all make bids but the Flyers will get at least the 4.

I myself don't understand what the big deal is about one person's personal opinion. There's little doubt in my mind that STA is the best team in the state, but they haven't proven it night in and night out. I realize they play a much tougher schedule, but Little Falls has taken care of business and STA has blemishes against Marshall and SSP. It has nothing to do with Centennial and AHA, for me anyways.

Little Falls - 4-0 against Class A top 20
Saint Thomas Academy - 1-1-1 against Class A top 20

What if Little Falls still had Festler? Would that change your minds? Or would their schedule still weigh them down?

[Goldy23]

Have some of you people seen Ben Hanowski play? I have no problem putting Little Falls at #1 at this stage, just because of him. He is the best player, hands down, in the state (Class A). The Flyers are going to be undefeated going into the state tournament and we'll see what they're made of. They were the second best team in the state come early March last year.

I've not seen Ben this year but have seen him the two previous. He is an excellent player and deserves the attention he is getting. I do however disagree with your judgement that "just because of him" they should be ranked #1. Bottom line is in hockey, great teams will almost always beat great players and beyond Ben, I just don't think they have the depth of talent that STA, Breck and maybe even Warroad have. We will likely get the chance to see them at state once again, but will be surprised if they can get past some of the deeper teams to take home the hardware.

I can't think of one team in the state, A or AA, that would be more affected if one kid was absent. Berglund and Nelson are also pretty good, especially Berglund. But without Hanowski, they don't make it past Alex. But they do have Hanowski, and after they're 28-0 and headed to state, we'll see if he can work his magic. They should be ranked this year and have a much better chance to make it into the semi's at least.

Even after Little Falls goes 28-0. St. Thomas Academy will get the #1 seed if they stay on track and make it there. I'm farely certain Breck, Warroad, and Hermantown/SCC will all make bids but the Flyers will get at least the 4.

I myself don't understand what the big deal is about one person's personal opinion. There's little doubt in my mind that STA is the best team in the state, but they haven't proven it night in and night out. I realize they play a much tougher schedule, but Little Falls has taken care of business and STA has blemishes against Marshall and SSP. It has nothing to do with Centennial and AHA, for me anyways.

Little Falls - 4-0 against Class A top 20
Saint Thomas Academy - 1-1-1 against Class A top 20

What if Little Falls still had Festler? Would that change your minds? Or would their schedule still weigh them down?

That would obvciously change a lot of peoples minds as that would probably make Ben the second best player on the team. No question they should be ranked, its just a matter of where. It sure would be a lot simpler if they would fill their non conference games with at least a handful of elite A and AA teams. It would be good for them as well to compete against a Breck, STA, East, Warroad or Moorhead before they get to State to really see what they are made of.

[Mistah Hockey]

im not sure what I falls record is any more, but i know they beat lourdes pretty handily so if theyr record is good they need to be ranked above them. I think there is just to many lourdes supporters

[HShockeywatcher]

MNHockey75,
You are discussing in a thread about the top 15 and yet, you want to discuss a top 20 list? Very incomparable with the two teams anyway, as much of St Thomas' schedule is AA teams. Little Falls is 3-0 against top 15 teams, according to that list, all of which were in their first four games and all 1 goal games, one going into OT. While St Thomas is 1-1-1 against top 15 A teams, they outscored them 9-5. I would take out the beginning games, as none of these teams are remotely close to who they were at the beginning of the season.
St Thomas is also 2-2 against top 15 AA teams, being outscored 16-14.
In your post on Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:49 pm, you put St Thomas ahead of Little Falls in the rankings. Since then Little Falls has beat up on bad teams, St Thomas tied one of the top goalies in the state and they switch?
You are comparing these two teams and you ask if having a player who used to be on their team still on the team would change any minds?
Really curious how losing to a good teams, teams that are better than both STA and LF, is being held against St Thomas here.

Almost all ranking systems throw out (or diminish the weight of) games at the beginning of the season because of how teams change throughout the season. If you were to take out even just the first 4 games of both seasons Little Falls would have nothing to brag about.

[goldy313]

[quote="elliott70"]You are talking about Red Wings quality losses, but where are their quality wins. 2 or 3 nice wins but nothing that impressive.

They lost to Lourdes, who lost to the #4 team in Section 7A.
quote]

Didn't Hibbing lose to the #4 team in 1A? So obviously by your logic Hibbing can't be any good.