Edina: not the same team?

[halla]

Van Voorhis anyone? Is he still out?

[ehshockey]

Van Voorhis anyone? Is he still out?

he is out with mono

[youngblood08]

Who would have thought we could ever talk about M Everson getting snake bite in a game? He should have had 3-4 goals easy last night, both times he was on the doorstep and Larsen made some unreal saves. No different then what other players go through sometimes.

I still think they are the best team from start to finish.

[karl(east)]

Thank you for the very insightful post, hornetsnest.

One thing I'd note, though, is that 3 of Edina's easiest 4 games came in those first 6 games, which might skew the numbers a bit. Maybe not enough to change them much, but it's worth mentioning.

Also, Edina's best stretch of play was almost undoubtedly from the Blaine game to the EP game, a stretch over which they were undefeated and just rolling through some of the best teams in the state. During this time, though, they had Lee-Everson-Gaarder together. I'm not saying you're wrong, but how do you reconcile these facts?

On a mostly unrelated but possibly interesting note, reading the criticisms of Edina on this thread makes me feel like I've been transported back to one on Duluth East last year. Depth and talent at forward, but one line has the top 3 players and does all the scoring. Outshooting opponents by large margins, sometimes ridiculously so. Depth and some top end talent at D too, but a few more breakdowns than you'd expect for such a group. A relatively inexperienced goalie. Failure to live quite up to the expectations of the past two years, despite mostly successful seasons. A grueling schedule that some claim might be wearing the team down.

I don't know how well the parallel works, and Edina clearly has more top end talent than DE 07-08. Now realize how East's season ended last year, and make of that what you will.

I'd agree that talent is not the issue here. I'm not close enough to Edina hockey to know whether it's chemistry or coaching strategies/tactics or a mindset issue or just the wear and tear of the schedule. Whatever it is, they'd better figure it out before they run into AHA and/or Jefferson in a month.

[hornetsnest]

Thank you for the very insightful post, hornetsnest.

One thing I'd note, though, is that 3 of Edina's easiest 4 games came in those first 6 games, which might skew the numbers a bit. Maybe not enough to change them much, but it's worth mentioning.

Also, Edina's best stretch of play was almost undoubtedly from the Blaine game to the EP game, a stretch over which they were undefeated and just rolling through some of the best teams in the state. During this time, though, they had Lee-Everson-Gaarder together. I'm not saying you're wrong, but how do you reconcile these facts?

On a mostly unrelated but possibly interesting note, reading the criticisms of Edina on this thread makes me feel like I've been transported back to one on Duluth East last year. Depth and talent at forward, but one line has the top 3 players and does all the scoring. Outshooting opponents by large margins, sometimes ridiculously so. Depth and some top end talent at D too, but a few more breakdowns than you'd expect for such a group. A relatively inexperienced goalie. Failure to live quite up to the expectations of the past two years, despite mostly successful seasons. A grueling schedule that some claim might be wearing the team down.

I don't know how well the parallel works, and Edina clearly has more top end talent than DE 07-08. Now realize how East's season ended last year, and make of that what you will.

I'd agree that talent is not the issue here. I'm not close enough to Edina hockey to know whether it's chemistry or coaching strategies/tactics or a mindset issue or just the wear and tear of the schedule. Whatever it is, they'd better figure it out before they run into AHA and/or Jefferson in a month.

A fair point, but if you look back during the last twelve games the second line has faired no better against weaker team such as Cloquet where the first line had 8 of the 9 goals..... The imbalance is very real.

Again, this combination may win games against 90% of the competition, but the games against the top teams have been major struggles. When mulitple lines score for Edina, the games are quite dominating. Look at the Schwanns Cup final against HA. The dominance of one line in my eyes does not in this equation out weigh the balance of having two scoring lines come play-offs.

[King of the Pond]

Edina has and will be a target, don't panic hornets good teams need to loose once in a while. See you at the Excel Center.

You seem pretty confident even now that you will have to go through AHA and Jefferson. Im not saying they wont be in state but im just saying that you seem overconfident even after your team has lost 2 straight

[Papa Bergundy]

Anyone on here watch college basketball? Didn't think so.

To enlighten you all there's a little say announcers like to toss around. "Live by the three, die by the three."

May this cliche be taking place in Edina? "Live by the first line, die by the first line."

I see people pointing out how they played there best hockey once Lee, Gaarder and Everson were assembled. IMO, this is because these three were playing their best hockey of the season, not the team as a whole.

This team will only go as far as their first line takes them, problem is, as of recent games, it seems that a few teams have got these guys figured out. Or a few goalies, whichever.

By the way, I disagree with an earlier post saying Edina's 2nd and 3rd lines played better. I have seen them play 2 or 3 times together and I think they get worked for most of the game, including last night.

[scoreboard33]

Hornetsnest, first of all I was at the game and did not see the how many shots were counted for the flury and how many were actually taken, but I did see 4 shots counted in the 1st period where the puck didn't hit the net and 2 more dump-ins that the goalie played were counted as shots, plus a swing and a miss was also counted.

Second, I completely disagree with you about Marshall Everson. His role on the team has completely changed. He started by being a player who had to pass and shoot for his line with Eppel and Gaarder to be successful. In the Hill game, he set Eppel up on the doorstep four times and none were converted. While Eppel is a very strong player, he is not the scorer that Lee, Budish, Everson and Gaarder are. He doesn't even score with Taft and Sit, but does play great defense and work hard in the offensive zone and skate very well in the breakout.

When Lee was moved up to play with Everson and Gaarder, Everson's role completely changed, he become a player on the ice to score. He is doing a great job in the new role. Against AHA, both of Everson's goals were scored with two defenders hounding him, while Lee hit him with a good pass, the goals were scored because of Everson's strength and amazing shooting. All in all, Everson will score whether he is being set up amazingly or being mauled by the defense and Lee will get assists on both plays.

Also, you can't really judge based on points, because Everson played against other teams first lines, while Lee played against other teams second lines and then when they came together, they have both benefitted each other so much, that scoring had to increase. Lee probably would be scoring at about the same level as Everson did before they combined if he played on teh first line without Everson.

Last night, Everson scored Edina's only goal on a rebound because he forced his way to the slot and got a shot off quickly. Everson played hard around the net and couldn't put in a few more because of a hot/good goalie. No one else had near the amount of offensive chances as Everson and Lee played possibly his worst game of the year and Everson still produced pretty effectively. I don't think you can say that Everson is more benefitted by Lee than Lee is by Everson.

Baker was clearly the Hornets top player last night. He was on the ice for a powerplay goal, however his play had nothing to do with the goal, it was just a good shot with two defenseman around him. The other goal, Baker got unlucky breaking his stick and Jarrett didn't play the situation great resulting in goal. Baker did contain Centennial's breakout extremely effectively, pinch at all the right times, launch bombs from the blue line and quarterback both the breakout and in-zone offensive attacks to perfection. He was Edina's biggest offensive threat besides Everson. Baker was also missing his defensive partner, and played with all the other defenseman, so their were probably some miscommunications with that. Also, when the first line was out without Baker, they looked lost, when they sent the puck to the point and expected a shot, it got dumped back in or passed back to an open forward and when they sent the puck to the point expecting it back, the D shot it on goal, however when Baker was on the point the line knew exactly where to go and what to expect. I wish I had film so I could show you all the great plays that Baker made.

I'm not against breaking up the top line, but I am not for it either, Giles is certainly in a predicament, but I think Edina's real problem is that Everson and Lee have been so dominant throughout the season that when they don't control the play continuously they get frustrated and don't quite realize that they have to adjust. I think that is what happened against Hill, Hpkins and last night. I have talked to many players and a coach and have not heard anything about team chemistry, although it could be an issue. Edina did have a great puck movement against AHA, Blaine, BSM and Wayzata, so I don't think that is really the problem. Edina just needs to get their swagger back and they will be alright, Armstrong is the perfect opponent to do it against.

[HShcky420]

Only if Centennial could play Jefferson in the regular season so their would be no top teams left to beat

[flatontheice]

Hornetsnest, first of all I was at the game and did not see the how many shots were counted for the flury and how many were actually taken, but I did see 4 shots counted in the 1st period where the puck didn't hit the net and 2 more dump-ins that the goalie played were counted as shots, plus a swing and a miss was also counted.

Second, I completely disagree with you about Marshall Everson. His role on the team has completely changed. He started by being a player who had to pass and shoot for his line with Eppel and Gaarder to be successful. In the Hill game, he set Eppel up on the doorstep four times and none were converted. While Eppel is a very strong player, he is not the scorer that Lee, Budish, Everson and Gaarder are. He doesn't even score with Taft and Sit, but does play great defense and work hard in the offensive zone and skate very well in the breakout.

When Lee was moved up to play with Everson and Gaarder, Everson's role completely changed, he become a player on the ice to score. He is doing a great job in the new role. Against AHA, both of Everson's goals were scored with two defenders hounding him, while Lee hit him with a good pass, the goals were scored because of Everson's strength and amazing shooting. All in all, Everson will score whether he is being set up amazingly or being mauled by the defense and Lee will get assists on both plays.

Also, you can't really judge based on points, because Everson played against other teams first lines, while Lee played against other teams second lines and then when they came together, they have both benefitted each other so much, that scoring had to increase. Lee probably would be scoring at about the same level as Everson did before they combined if he played on teh first line without Everson.

Last night, Everson scored Edina's only goal on a rebound because he forced his way to the slot and got a shot off quickly. Everson played hard around the net and couldn't put in a few more because of a hot/good goalie. No one else had near the amount of offensive chances as Everson and Lee played possibly his worst game of the year and Everson still produced pretty effectively. I don't think you can say that Everson is more benefitted by Lee than Lee is by Everson.

Baker was clearly the Hornets top player last night. He was on the ice for a powerplay goal, however his play had nothing to do with the goal, it was just a good shot with two defenseman around him. The other goal, Baker got unlucky breaking his stick and Jarrett didn't play the situation great resulting in goal. Baker did contain Centennial's breakout extremely effectively, pinch at all the right times, launch bombs from the blue line and quarterback both the breakout and in-zone offensive attacks to perfection. He was Edina's biggest offensive threat besides Everson. Baker was also missing his defensive partner, and played with all the other defenseman, so their were probably some miscommunications with that. Also, when the first line was out without Baker, they looked lost, when they sent the puck to the point and expected a shot, it got dumped back in or passed back to an open forward and when they sent the puck to the point expecting it back, the D shot it on goal, however when Baker was on the point the line knew exactly where to go and what to expect. I wish I had film so I could show you all the great plays that Baker made.

I'm not against breaking up the top line, but I am not for it either, Giles is certainly in a predicament, but I think Edina's real problem is that Everson and Lee have been so dominant throughout the season that when they don't control the play continuously they get frustrated and don't quite realize that they have to adjust. I think that is what happened against Hill, Hpkins and last night. I have talked to many players and a coach and have not heard anything about team chemistry, although it could be an issue. Edina did have a great puck movement against AHA, Blaine, BSM and Wayzata, so I don't think that is really the problem. Edina just needs to get their swagger back and they will be alright, Armstrong is the perfect opponent to do it against.

I say it one more time. I have seen this 100 times. If he keeps playing that much they are going to get eaiser to beat

[scoreboard33]

I didn't say that Edina's second and thrid lines were better, just that they played better, but I didn't think they really stood out, but neither did Centennial's second or thrid lines. Both Edina's second and third lines play like scoring lines and then can't put the puck in the net, so I can see your point, but I think they had more quality chances than Centennial's second and third lines.

Also, I think Giles definitely needs to play the second and third lines more, I am just not sure where I stand on the idea of one dominant line.

[minnesotaice]

Only if Centennial could play Jefferson in the regular season so their would be no top teams left to beat

Centennial lost to White Bear, tied Blaine, and tied Duluth East. Sure they've beaten Edina, but they have been inconsistent against other top teams.

[hornetsnest]

Hornetsnest, first of all I was at the game and did not see the how many shots were counted for the flury and how many were actually taken, but I did see 4 shots counted in the 1st period where the puck didn't hit the net and 2 more dump-ins that the goalie played were counted as shots, plus a swing and a miss was also counted.

Second, I completely disagree with you about Marshall Everson. His role on the team has completely changed. He started by being a player who had to pass and shoot for his line with Eppel and Gaarder to be successful. In the Hill game, he set Eppel up on the doorstep four times and none were converted. While Eppel is a very strong player, he is not the scorer that Lee, Budish, Everson and Gaarder are. He doesn't even score with Taft and Sit, but does play great defense and work hard in the offensive zone and skate very well in the breakout.

When Lee was moved up to play with Everson and Gaarder, Everson's role completely changed, he become a player on the ice to score. He is doing a great job in the new role. Against AHA, both of Everson's goals were scored with two defenders hounding him, while Lee hit him with a good pass, the goals were scored because of Everson's strength and amazing shooting. All in all, Everson will score whether he is being set up amazingly or being mauled by the defense and Lee will get assists on both plays.

Also, you can't really judge based on points, because Everson played against other teams first lines, while Lee played against other teams second lines and then when they came together, they have both benefitted each other so much, that scoring had to increase. Lee probably would be scoring at about the same level as Everson did before they combined if he played on teh first line without Everson.

Last night, Everson scored Edina's only goal on a rebound because he forced his way to the slot and got a shot off quickly. Everson played hard around the net and couldn't put in a few more because of a hot/good goalie. No one else had near the amount of offensive chances as Everson and Lee played possibly his worst game of the year and Everson still produced pretty effectively. I don't think you can say that Everson is more benefitted by Lee than Lee is by Everson.

Baker was clearly the Hornets top player last night. He was on the ice for a powerplay goal, however his play had nothing to do with the goal, it was just a good shot with two defenseman around him. The other goal, Baker got unlucky breaking his stick and Jarrett didn't play the situation great resulting in goal. Baker did contain Centennial's breakout extremely effectively, pinch at all the right times, launch bombs from the blue line and quarterback both the breakout and in-zone offensive attacks to perfection. He was Edina's biggest offensive threat besides Everson. Baker was also missing his defensive partner, and played with all the other defenseman, so their were probably some miscommunications with that. Also, when the first line was out without Baker, they looked lost, when they sent the puck to the point and expected a shot, it got dumped back in or passed back to an open forward and when they sent the puck to the point expecting it back, the D shot it on goal, however when Baker was on the point the line knew exactly where to go and what to expect. I wish I had film so I could show you all the great plays that Baker made.

I'm not against breaking up the top line, but I am not for it either, Giles is certainly in a predicament, but I think Edina's real problem is that Everson and Lee have been so dominant throughout the season that when they don't control the play continuously they get frustrated and don't quite realize that they have to adjust. I think that is what happened against Hill, Hpkins and last night. I have talked to many players and a coach and have not heard anything about team chemistry, although it could be an issue. Edina did have a great puck movement against AHA, Blaine, BSM and Wayzata, so I don't think that is really the problem. Edina just needs to get their swagger back and they will be alright, Armstrong is the perfect opponent to do it against.

Scorecard: You back up my points exactly. You stated Everson began this season as a player who had to pass and shoot while playing with Eppel and Gaarder to be successful. Ooookay, that sounds like a complete hockey player to me. You mentioned Eppel failing to finish in the HM game, is their a difference between Everson failing to finish numerous chances in the Centennial game? It happens.

You then say his role has completely changed since playing with Lee and Gaarder. His job now is to score and he does. The problem with your thinking is one player has benefited from this arrangement, and that is Everson. His pt per game was 1.83 prior without Lee and now is 2.75 Lee was producing at 2.5 ppg and is now 2.66, Gaarder was at 2 prior and is at 2 current. Too say Everson has not benefited more than Lee from this arrangement is interesting.

What you fail to realize and the point I was trying to make, is that three other players have seen their production drop dramatically, and the Hornets have become a one-line team that may be vulnerable to more balanced teams.

When lee centered Taft and Sit to start the season they averaged 1.16 and 1.5 pts per game. Other teams had to pick their poison with these two-line scoring combinations, and this allowed Everson's line to often match up against teams #2 lines. Through the first 6 games, these two lines had 30 pts and 31 pts respectively. You could not ask for a more balanced scoring attack. Taft and Sit are too talented to allow their production to fall off like that with out a change. Chapman and Cutshall are also coming on in their play but could benefit from a realignment.

I have read some of your previous posts and the common thread is the constant mention of play by Baker and Everson and shots at Lee, you even mentioned Lee played his worst game of the year against Centennial, despite he dominated his face-offs, and set-up Everson numerous times who could not convert.

The point on Baker who is a very fine defensive defenseman is that on Centennials third goal, he failed to help clear the puck out of the zone after breaking his stick. Basic rule, clear the puck out of the zone first before leaving the play to get a new stick in a dangerous situation.

For a Hornet supporter your tone is often personal and you seem to forget there are 20 players on this team and not 2.... For the Hornets to make it back to state against a potential team like Jefferson, who are not only extremely strong defensively but also possess a very balanced scoring attack, the Hornets will certainly need more team production than from the two players you love to mention. The Hornets certainly have the talent to create a more balanced team with greater team concept in both play and production. More We, less Me.

Blowing out Armstrong does not provide a "swagger" in my eyes, A convincing win over Minnetonka with multiple line production would be a better start...

[HardF1]

I saw the most recent loss and I do agree that Edina was pounding the Cougars goalie with quality shots. There was a number of unbelievable saves by Larson, i think it is, but the Hornets couldn't put the puck in the net. I think Edina's top line wont always be successful every game and when that happens, they are due for a loss.

The depth of some teams with 2 or 3 solid lines is going to spell trouble for Edina. There top line can't be out the whole game and if they are they wont be as effective.

The depth of teams like Jefferson and Centennial, Edina wont be at the Excel in March.

[dangles23]

Just a random thought, but what do people think of splitting up the Everson, Lee, and Gaarder and putting sit in there instead of either Everson or Lee. Even if just for a few shifts out of every period. That way you can try to expose the opponents 2nd line more and maybe get the other time to jostle their lines some.

[hornetsnest]

Just a random thought, but what do people think of splitting up the Everson, Lee, and Gaarder and putting sit in there instead of either Everson or Lee. Even if just for a few shifts out of every period. That way you can try to expose the opponents 2nd line more and maybe get the other time to jostle their lines some.

I think as we discussed earlier, centering lee with sit and taft provided very solid results earlier this year and would create the shortest learning curve for the new line combos. The few shifts with alterations experiment was done last year when Lee centered two-lines a few shifts each period. The flow and physical toll appeared to be tough.

[scoreboard33]

hornetsnest, It is hard for me to see where you think that
I take shots at Lee, he did not play at the level he was at in the stretch from after the Holiday Classic game to the second EP game, and I don't think you can deny that. He still played good for other players, just not good for the standard he has set for himself. Everson was not amazing either, I put him in the 3rd-8th best player in the game.

Also, I think in my last post that I mentioned both Baker and Lee in the same post, I'm pretty sure I said that Baker was playing the best of any player on the team, until Lee took his game to the next level. Previously, in posts about the elite league, I spoke about Lee's great scoring and tough play in the corners and how he has been one the top 4 players on Southwest, with Leddy, Everson and Budish.

I'm not really sure what you are talking about Everson playing against other teams second lines. I went to every one of those first five games and the other team matched their first line with Everson-Gaarder-Eppel and second line with Lee-Taft-Sit. Also, you say that Grand Rapids was a game where Edina played two strong lines, however they had Everson-Lee-Gaarder together.

My tone may be personal, but my opinions are based on having seen them play a ton of times, not on my how I view the kids. I feel that you have commented on the Hornets based on stats, which as me and Karl(east) have pointed out probably don't tell the whole story and events at two games this year.

By going with points per game, you count a goal scored by a line up to three times without really looking at the goal production of the lines. Although, after trying to crunch those numbers, they don't look much better. I am indifferent to whether or not to go back to two balanced top lines, but the hornets can't rely on that top line too much and skate them two much.

I not sure if I am right, but I feel you are implying the Hornets are a selfish team, which I completely disagree with and that Everson is at the center of the selfishness, just because he has benefitted from the line shifts, while he is a just filling a role on the team like anyone else. I don't think there are any issues with that on this team, this is from the parents I have spoken with, none have mentioned any issues and they are not the stars parents and these parents aren't exactly quiet when they have a strong opinion. Remember, playing one dominant line is a coaching decision, not a player decision. While there are 20 players on the team, the Hornets fortunes will go with Lee, Everson, Baker, Gaarder and maybe a few others who step up.

Also, with high school age kids on a losing streak, any win helps build confidence, even if it doesn't prove anything to the outside world.

[HShcky420]

Top teams? how about beating the Holy Angels. Haha at least they didn't lose to Hopkins anyone ever herd of them?

[petern3]

I think Edina will take Centenial in state, unless Blaine beats them, which could very well happen. I do favor Centenial this year though, but i think the sophmore goalie will crack in the playoffs. Lots of pressure!

[karl(east)]

My tone may be personal, but my opinions are based on having seen them play a ton of times. I feel that you have commented on the Hornets based on stats, which as me and Karl(east) have pointed out probably don't tell the whole story and events at two games this year. Also, by going with points per game, you count a goal scored by a line up to three times without really looking at the goal production of the lines. I am indifferent to whether or not to go back to two balanced top lines, but the hornets can't rely on that top line too much and skate them two much.

It's been interesting reading the various perspectives on this, and it seems to me that there is no real consensus.

Therefore, I think Giles needs to find one. And by that, I mean testing both options. Maybe put Lee-Everson-Gaarder together for one period and split them up for the next, or do it on a game-by-game basis. Get creative, and see what works and what doesn't. At this point, they're pretty much assured the #2 seed in the section. While I'm sure the Classic Lake title is important, I think the team as a whole is better served by figuring out what exactly will work during the playoffs, which is all that really matters. Maybe an obvious answer will emerge, maybe one won't. But they're probably best served by giving that a try.

Thoughts?

[scoreboard33]

My tone may be personal, but my opinions are based on having seen them play a ton of times. I feel that you have commented on the Hornets based on stats, which as me and Karl(east) have pointed out probably don't tell the whole story and events at two games this year. Also, by going with points per game, you count a goal scored by a line up to three times without really looking at the goal production of the lines. I am indifferent to whether or not to go back to two balanced top lines, but the hornets can't rely on that top line too much and skate them two much.

It's been interesting reading the various perspectives on this, and it seems to me that there is no real consensus.

Therefore, I think Giles needs to find one. And by that, I mean testing both options. Maybe put Lee-Everson-Gaarder together for one period and split them up for the next, or do it on a game-by-game basis. Get creative, and see what works and what doesn't. At this point, they're pretty much assured the #2 seed in the section. While I'm sure the Classic Lake title is important, I think the team as a whole is better served by figuring out what exactly will work during the playoffs, which is all that really matters. Maybe an obvious answer will emerge, maybe one won't. But they're probably best served by giving that a try.

Thoughts?

That might work, maybe balance the lines and then go superstar line on the powerplay.

Also, interesting that no one says the same about Centennial, which also played one line very significantly and let the others fall by the wayside.

[Hockeyguy_27]

Scoreboard,

You are right on in your assessment, in my opinion. However, Giles will most likely ride Everson's line like Zorro till the end. I'd love to see Connor Gaarder, who may be best pure hockey player on the team, be looked at as a go to guy. If I were coaching the Hornets, I would have have a gritty roll player on the Everson line and put Lee on another line. This dynamic would be much more difficult to defense.

[O-townClown]

Lots of theories, but it seems to me the one loaded line approach only becomes a problem when the Hornets are down halfway through the second. Once behind, it becomes even more important to go to the go-to guys for a tally.

Has much changed? Still think Edina's favored over whoever they face, with the possible exception of Jefferson if they meet in the Section 2 final.

Edina's won a lot of games over good teams by comfortable margins with the dreaded one line method. Questions fly because they lost. Super goaltending played a part.

[scoreboard33]

Yes, Edina did win a lot of games with the great first line, but it seems that balance may help Edina to win games that are closer.

There is no question that once Edina gets a lead, the first line is really good at putting games away and stomping on the other teams throat. The question is, would Edina be better suited to make a run at the state title, where they will probably have 4-5 games with top tier teams, if they balanced their top two lines?

Again, I don't have a strong opinion either way, just my question.

[sn1per]

Maybe Edina would be better off NOT BEING EDINA?

And by that I mean 2 things:

1. Just having the name EDINA on their jerseys makes them a target of every other team in the state. It's tough having every team gunning for you every game. It takes a toll.

2. Stop trying for the pretty goals, and the fancy passes, and play some good old fashion hard nosed hockey. Punish the other teams defense by dumping and chasing(normally i hate this...), give the team no room to breathe. Next thing you know, they will be tired and Edina's talent can take over the game.