Why no squirt state tournament?

JoltDelivered · Post by **JoltDelivered** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:48 pm

Why don't we have a squirt state tournament in Minnesota? How would having a state tournament be any different than going to another Duluth, St. Cloud, Rochester or FARGO tournament? If the argument is "well, squirts is considered a develomental level therefore having a state tournament is counter intuitive." I'm not sure that holds water with me. Our squirts (A&B) travel all over the state to play in tournaments. How is that any different than holding another tournament which we would happen to put the word "State" in front of?

cooper26 · Post by **cooper26** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:04 pm

JoltDelivered wrote:Why don't we have a squirt state tournament in Minnesota? How would having a state tournament be any different than going to another Duluth, St. Cloud, Rochester or FARGO tournament? If the argument is "well, squirts is considered a develomental level therefore having a state tournament is counter intuitive." I'm not sure that holds water with me. Our squirts (A&B) travel all over the state to play in tournaments. How is that any different than holding another tournament which we would happen to put the word "State" in front of?

Exactly! - There's no difference! You guys should just sign up for one more tournament - and consider it "State" if you want.

IMHO - It IS counter-intuitive.

JoltDelivered · Post by **JoltDelivered** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:09 pm

Coop - I respect your opinion and lord knows adding more tournaments may be a schedule / cost killer. But don't you think most teams would just plan around that? For those programs that think they may have a good shot to play in state, wouldn't you just schedule one fewer tournament during the year?

I am curious to understand why you think it would be counter intuitive??My argument is simple. Most squirt teams play in 3-4 tournaments per winter. What's wrong if one of those 3-4 happens to be a state tournament?

gohawk4 · Post by **gohawk4** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:11 pm

I believe it is counter intuitive also. Not too many years ago there was no PeeWee B state tournament either. They argued that the PeeWee B level was all about development, but finally had enough pressure to create a state tournament. Squirts are out there to play for fun and having the pressures of winning state would only cause more problems at the squirt level, in my opinion. What would happen when we get coaches sitting 10 and 11 year olds to win? Would these kids understand? Heck I don't even think some of the peewees understand.

Please leave the last enjoyable level alone. When we take away the fun at the younger levels, we see more and more kids will quit. Don't you suppose that is why you have so many dropouts after PeeWees and Bantams. Kids are no longer enjoying the game. Let's not make them hate a game at 11 years old.

Garth · Post by **Garth** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:30 pm

You'd first have to resolve the 35 game limitation per team.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:29 pm

JoltDelivered wrote:Why don't we have a squirt state tournament in Minnesota? How would having a state tournament be any different than going to another Duluth, St. Cloud, Rochester or FARGO tournament? If the argument is "well, squirts is considered a develomental level therefore having a state tournament is counter intuitive." I'm not sure that holds water with me. Our squirts (A&B) travel all over the state to play in tournaments. How is that any different than holding another tournament which we would happen to put the word "State" in front of?

Why????

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:36 pm

It is more likely that 'B' level state will be dropped before a squirt state will be held.

goinbardown · Post by **goinbardown** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:46 pm

Pretty sure baseball, basketball, golf and tennis all crown a state champion for this age level, so I agree why not hockey.

I think that its because parents don't there kids to have hurt feelings that they didn't make it or lost. (NO WAY MY TEAM WINS)

Just have a 16 team bracket invitational, have the state wave the 4 games and crown a winner.

Everyone needs to get off there high horse and just suck it up.

cooper26 · Post by **cooper26** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:45 pm

gohawk4 wrote:I believe it is counter intuitive also. Not too many years ago there was no PeeWee B state tournament either. They argued that the PeeWee B level was all about development, but finally had enough pressure to create a state tournament. Squirts are out there to play for fun and having the pressures of winning state would only cause more problems at the squirt level, in my opinion. What would happen when we get coaches sitting 10 and 11 year olds to win? Would these kids understand? Heck I don't even think some of the peewees understand.

Please leave the last enjoyable level alone. When we take away the fun at the younger levels, we see more and more kids will quit. Don't you suppose that is why you have so many dropouts after PeeWees and Bantams. Kids are no longer enjoying the game. Let's not make them hate a game at 11 years old.

Exactly correct. Let it be.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:14 pm

If I read it correctly, USA Hockey's new ADM will discourage Squirts from traveling. I don't see a state tournament in Minnesota soon as it would appear like thumbing their nose at the guidelines.

goinbardown · Post by **goinbardown** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:30 pm

How is crowning a state champion making kids hate the game?

I don't know where your from but where I live the kids that are quitting are playing B2 and C hockey. The A and B1 kids(who are having state tournaments) continue to play as for they are more likely to play at the varsity level.

Why as a state are we so against competitivness and hurting peoples feelings. Go talk to the Jr. Blues Program, they throw there kids to the dogs right away and they are almost at the top of every national ranking on Myhockeyrankings.com. If we really want to be the best hockey place in the world everyone needs to decide they want to win and not just have "FUN". Last time I checked most Bantam A and Varsity coaches care a lot more about winning than having fun, so why not enstill this desire to win early in people.(within reason of course).

I'm a history major and competition is what made our country a world power and it is slowly getting away from that becuase everyone has to be "Politicaly Correct"

iwearmysunglassesatnight · Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:46 pm

The times they are a changing. For now squirts have the Fargo to hold onto as their championship. I see this as a great avenue for Bernie McBain..... he picks 5 or 6 trnys over the winter... if you win you get a invite. He then takes 5 to 6 teams on his own... They all come together and play at MN Made. This is done after March 15 per say, so their season is over. They all participate just like a summer team, or playing in his preview cup. That is how to get around the MN Hockey. The teams participating are not endorsed by their association, but they know what the trny is about. "Minnesota Choice Invitational"

black sheep · Post by **black sheep** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:52 pm

gohawk4 wrote: What would happen when we get coaches sitting 10 and 11 year olds to win? Would these kids understand? Heck I don't even think some of the peewees understand.

And this doesn't happen already????? We don't live in a Mighty Ducks movie.

defense · Post by **defense** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:54 pm

JoltDelivered wrote:Why don't we have a squirt state tournament in Minnesota? How would having a state tournament be any different than going to another Duluth, St. Cloud, Rochester or FARGO tournament? If the argument is "well, squirts is considered a develomental level therefore having a state tournament is counter intuitive." I'm not sure that holds water with me. Our squirts (A&B) travel all over the state to play in tournaments. How is that any different than holding another tournament which we would happen to put the word "State" in front of?

Squirt state????
No. Period. Done.
Let the kids have some fun, at this level most are just starting to get that drive.....

Hockeyguy_27 · Post by **Hockeyguy_27** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:56 pm

JoltDelivered wrote:Why don't we have a squirt state tournament in Minnesota? How would having a state tournament be any different than going to another Duluth, St. Cloud, Rochester or FARGO tournament? If the argument is "well, squirts is considered a develomental level therefore having a state tournament is counter intuitive." I'm not sure that holds water with me. Our squirts (A&B) travel all over the state to play in tournaments. How is that any different than holding another tournament which we would happen to put the word "State" in front of?

I agree. When I coached Squirt A, we always had the Fargo Tournament to look forward to but I don't feel having some kind of a regional tournament would diminish the development of the players at this age and would actually allow these kids to look forward to something at the end of the year. I liken Squirt Hockey to JV in this regard. I believe this is a bureaucratic conspiracy to make everyone feel good.

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:11 am

defense wrote:
JoltDelivered wrote:Why don't we have a squirt state tournament in Minnesota? How would having a state tournament be any different than going to another Duluth, St. Cloud, Rochester or FARGO tournament? If the argument is "well, squirts is considered a develomental level therefore having a state tournament is counter intuitive." I'm not sure that holds water with me. Our squirts (A&B) travel all over the state to play in tournaments. How is that any different than holding another tournament which we would happen to put the word "State" in front of?
Squirt state????
No. Period. Done.
Let the kids have some fun, at this level most are just starting to get that drive.....

...and having a state tournament would be no fun for the kids? Why would that be? IMO, I think the kids involved would have a GREAT time.

Personally, I don't care either way. But I don't think it would be the end of the world if there WERE a state tournament.

puckfan · Post by **puckfan** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:32 am

Why is everyone so afraid to expose the kids to this when they are 10-11 years old?

If it's so wrong then our great summer past time of baseball is failing miserably. There are state tournaments at this age group, regionals and look out even a National tournament...........Call the President!

How about soccer, when do they start having theses types of tourny's? How about basketball?

JoltDelivered · Post by **JoltDelivered** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:56 am

Why not?

I think the kids who get to go would have a blast and remember it for years to come.

I did a quick search of a sampling of states to see what they do for squirts, if anything. The following states all have squirt state tournaments

Massachusetts
Michigan
Montana
Wisconsin
Maine

I am sure there are many more but this is what I found in about 5 minutes of web surfing. What do these state know that we don't?

Often I think something is hard wired into our Minnesota brains that we are afraid of ourselves and don't trust ourselves when it comes to kids athletics. It's almost like we can't get out of our own way.

Most people only get to compete in truly competitive atheltics for small portion of their lives (5-10 years - after that it's beer league softball and the occasional broomball game) and for some reason there is a school of thought out there that we try to make that 5-10 year span as least competitive as possible.

ThePuckStopsHere · Post by **ThePuckStopsHere** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:24 pm

I have been a reader for a while and never posted, but after reading a post today I almost fell off my chair, so I must respond.

First - I agree with the notion of a Squirt A State Tournament - Take your district tournament winners only and skip a regional format. Clean and simple format.

Secondly - (This is the reason for my post) - This goes to IWearMySunglassesatNight, the notion that Bernie McBaine should be involved in running a state tournament for Squirt A's is the dumbest statement I have ever read on this website. Were you joking when you posted that or are you drinking that much Machine Cool-Aid?

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:27 pm

Why do you (any or all of you) want a state tournament for squirts?

The reasons given so far are not that strong.

If you are going to convince teh MH board of this you need to put a good proposal together.

It was not easy getting them to go with B tournaments.

So who, what, how, when....etc.

JoltDelivered · Post by **JoltDelivered** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:39 pm

Elliott - all very good questions. And I think I answered your first question in my last post. I truly think the kids would remember forever their state tournament experience.

I was just trying to understand the stance of why we didn't have one. Wasn't really looking to mobilize a militia here to appear in front of MH.

For all who posted here, it's clear where they stand and what they personally beleive. But what I am still trying to answer, in my own mind, the exact reasons why we don't have one. MH already allows squirts to play in tournaments. So if we let them play in the Grand Rapids tournament or Edina tournament, why not a state trounement?

I was hoping my assumptions, which I did not share earlier, would have been validated in this string but they have not. I figured MH doesn't do it because arranging a State Tournament takes alot of resources (people, money, time, etc...) to pull off and instead of committing to all that, MH just says, well, squirts are too little. And by doing that they save themsleves a ton of work.

northwoods oldtimer · Post by **northwoods oldtimer** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:49 pm

Elliot70,
I will give you my reasons for not doing it. Mites and Squirts need ice time not tournaments, road travel and a state tournament to make a few parents and coaches feel 'puffed up'. The European model is a great model for hockey development that we (along with Canada) fail to take into account. We chase trophies and wins, the Europeans focus on development model and the skill they display at the highest levels of hockey continue to exceed ours. Elliot70 some folks in the west understand that and try to make change. Herb Brookes fought the establishment and not many appreciated his candor and sad to say few here in Minnesota listened to his concerns and applied them to the North American development model. USA hockey is about individual skill development and team play has diminished over the decades in my opinion. Mites and Squirts need ice time, ice time, ice time without Dads breathing down their neck and screaming from the stands "MOVE YOUR FEET" , "GET IT LOW" these comments are pathetic at best. Kids need to learn to play the game. If they do not learn at the mite and squirt level where on earth will they learn? I have witnessed enough over the top behavior from parents and coaches on 3rd, 4th and 5th graders to make one question why even continue to volunteer. I have watched enough bantam, high school, college games to know the games has turned to 'robot' hockey. Race horse hockey compared to a puck control game. Dump and chase is common. The few programs that still model the old way are successful. Far too many are focused on winning and that would escalate with a Squirt A state championship. Where are the playmakers of yesterday? Where are the team players of yesterday? Too busy chasing wins and games to the detriment of creative team play!

JoltDelivered · Post by **JoltDelivered** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:12 pm

Boy, I have witnessed the 'over the top" parent behavior too. Honestly, I think it gets worse as the kids get older but just my opinion. Having several of my own kids playing from mites to bantams, I have seen it first hand.

Oldtimer, thanks for your post and while I don't think I have the answer on MH's stance, you have confirmed for me a thought I shared in my earlier post. For some reason, we are afraid of ourselves and what we might do at a youth hockey game. So instead of correcting the behavior, we try and remove the venue for the behavior to manifest itself.

As far as chasing wins and trophies, I think you make a good point there. At what age do you think we should turn the scoreboard on?

And one final thought. Put yourself in the shoes of a 9 year old. How many sports would you beg mom and dad to sign you up for if you never got to actually play the game you signed up for?

dogeatdog1 · Post by **dogeatdog1** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:21 pm

I have a great idea.... State tourney closed to parents and adults of all kind.. let the kids divide the teams up themselves after a 20 minute skate. they set the rules. they deal with the goons that don't fit in and I would bet they could play for days without a problem...You would see different kids that know how to deal with adversity. learn to get along. lose with respect and adapt to situations on and off the rink. they wouldn't all be best friends after the tourney but I bet they would like it much better than having mom and Dad and Coach telling them what to do. Think how much $ we could save on one weekend jerseys and gate fees and Gatorade after the game... I wonder how happy the kids would be.

Wait No one would make any $ off of us poor idea

JoltDelivered · Post by **JoltDelivered** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:48 pm

That's what we did every day when I grew up.

Sadly, you can't let your kids out of your sight anymore or they could end up rolling around in the back of some dude's panel van.

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