As of tonight...
1. WB
2. HM
3. Rose
4. Tart
5. Still
6-10 don't matter
Section 4AA
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
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HShockeywatcher
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ImissMYhockey
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WBLHockeyfan04
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I think if WBL beats Cretin and Woodbury, they'll end up either winning or splitting the SEC conference. I think a more difficult conference than the CSC. I also feel that WBL has the toughest overall schedule in section 4AA, and played a completely different Hill team than the one now. Do you really think Tartan would have beaten the Hill team before the incident? Come on now. After tonights win, I would put WBL ahead of Roseville. Better record, and season split. Stillwater played WBL well this year, but only has one quality win in my opinion this year and that's against BSM. They should be 5, because of there weak record. So as of now, I have to make it.
1. WBL -I think they win out, and make it tought to dispute this.
2. Tartan- 1-0-1 against the revamped Hill team, but the one we'll see in sections.
3. Hill
4. Roseville
5. Stillwater
It doesn't matter after this. They have no chance.
1. WBL -I think they win out, and make it tought to dispute this.
2. Tartan- 1-0-1 against the revamped Hill team, but the one we'll see in sections.
3. Hill
4. Roseville
5. Stillwater
It doesn't matter after this. They have no chance.
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HShockeywatcher
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WBL does not deserve to be 1 or 2. They have 3 section losses, they deserve to be ahead of MV and maybe Roseville now, depending on what you think. Hill's only section loss is against Tartan.
Using those 4 players as an excuse is like using an injured player or something as an excuse. They've changed the team, sure, but from what I'm seeing, not a whole lot. St Thomas beat Hill 5-2 BEFORE the loss and loss 0-3 AFTER the loss. They are still a quality team and so is Tartan.
Using those 4 players as an excuse is like using an injured player or something as an excuse. They've changed the team, sure, but from what I'm seeing, not a whole lot. St Thomas beat Hill 5-2 BEFORE the loss and loss 0-3 AFTER the loss. They are still a quality team and so is Tartan.
HShockeywatcher wrote:WBL does not deserve to be 1 or 2. They have 3 section losses, they deserve to be ahead of MV and maybe Roseville now, depending on what you think. Hill's only section loss is against Tartan.
Using those 4 players as an excuse is like using an injured player or something as an excuse. They've changed the team, sure, but from what I'm seeing, not a whole lot. St Thomas beat Hill 5-2 BEFORE the loss and loss 0-3 AFTER the loss. They are still a quality team and so is Tartan.
So make it Hill, Tartan, WB. Those could pretty much be in any order depending on the last couple of games. But I can't agree that White Bear doesn't deserve to be top 4, as I can't really see another team besides Hill or Tartan that could be seeded ahead of them.
The top 4 seeds will be out of this group (WBL, Roseville, Tartan, and Hill). A lot depends on how they finish the season. I just hope they set them up where the semi-finals pit a SEC team vs a CSC team. Then they can decide which conference is tougher and play each other in the finals.HShockeywatcher wrote:BodyShots, How would you put it? Their only quality wins are over MV and they have a tie against Stillwater. They also have a loss to Stillwater, Hill and Roseville (maybe two depending on tonight's game). Despite the good games against MV, they don't deserve to be ahead of Stillwater, Hill, Roseville or Tartan. MV, in my opinion, has done well enough with a win over Stillwater and Roseville to be #4.
So if you don't like that, move Stillwater and WBL up one notch and MV to 5 or 6, but WBL does not have a legitimate argument for a top 4 seed this year. Good history, great program, but they simply haven't done what it takes this year.
As it sits today, I would seed them this way:
1. Hill
2. WBL
3. Tartan
4. Roseville
But, like I said earlier, let the season play itself out first.
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ImissMYhockey
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Here is my breakdown:
1) Tartan, they might not be the best team in the section but they are undefeated against all the teams they have played in the section. Tough to say they don't deserve the #1 seed.
2) Hill, They beat White Bear and lost to tartan. There only other losses come against top teams in both classes.
3) White Bear, lost to hill, split with Roseville, went 0-1-1 against stillwater, and swept Mounds View. WB and Rose only other similar opponent is centennial who WB beat and Rose lost to.
4) Roseville, split with WB and MV, swept stillwater. For sweeping stillwater they deserve to be ahead of them
5) Stillwater, split with MV, 1-0-1 against WB, swept by Roseville, lost to Tartan. They have a strong non-conference schedule and that puts them ahead of MV.
6) Mounds View, Split with Stillwater and Roseville, swept by WB, lost to tartan. If Mounds View wins out and stillwater loses, they will each have 5 wins in the SEC. Not to mention Stillwater will have finished the season 2-10-1 if they lose out in their last half of the season. They do play park and should win that game though so we can say 3-9-1. Mounds View has a relatively easy schedule and if they win out they will have finished 6-6-1 in their past 13.
7-10) I really don't know a lot about these teams so I won't say anything about them
If MV wins out they have a strong case to be in the 4-5 game. This is going to be a tough decision for the coaches for every seedand it will be interesting to see how they decide. It can go either way!!!!
1) Tartan, they might not be the best team in the section but they are undefeated against all the teams they have played in the section. Tough to say they don't deserve the #1 seed.
2) Hill, They beat White Bear and lost to tartan. There only other losses come against top teams in both classes.
3) White Bear, lost to hill, split with Roseville, went 0-1-1 against stillwater, and swept Mounds View. WB and Rose only other similar opponent is centennial who WB beat and Rose lost to.
4) Roseville, split with WB and MV, swept stillwater. For sweeping stillwater they deserve to be ahead of them
5) Stillwater, split with MV, 1-0-1 against WB, swept by Roseville, lost to Tartan. They have a strong non-conference schedule and that puts them ahead of MV.
6) Mounds View, Split with Stillwater and Roseville, swept by WB, lost to tartan. If Mounds View wins out and stillwater loses, they will each have 5 wins in the SEC. Not to mention Stillwater will have finished the season 2-10-1 if they lose out in their last half of the season. They do play park and should win that game though so we can say 3-9-1. Mounds View has a relatively easy schedule and if they win out they will have finished 6-6-1 in their past 13.
7-10) I really don't know a lot about these teams so I won't say anything about them
If MV wins out they have a strong case to be in the 4-5 game. This is going to be a tough decision for the coaches for every seedand it will be interesting to see how they decide. It can go either way!!!!
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Pioneerprideguy
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You keep mentioning that Tartan is undefeated against section teams. Problem with that is while they are scheduling games against Como, Stillwater, and Moundsview, Hill is playing against Edina, Centennial, and AHA. Tough to reward Tartan for playing against a "softer" non-conference schedule. Bottom line is that if they finish lower than Hill in the conference (common opponents) they should not be seeded higher than Hill. Coaches will look at the whole season not just a single night.
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The Gumper
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I'm not so sure.HShockeywatcher wrote:I have a hard time believing that going 6-0-1 in section play with two of those games against Hill would not give you the top spot.
Tartan's 14 wins include Como, Shakopee, Richfield (twice), North (twice), Mounds View, Faribault, Sibley, Simley, and Stillwater. The 7 losses include getting thumped by Roch. Century, Woodbury, and STA and a 5-3 loss to Red Wing. 2 of their 3 remaining games are against weak teams (Sibley, Simley), which pretty well reflects their strength of schedule overall.
Yes, they beat Hill-Murray last night, but this is who they really beat: Hill-Murray*.
Surely, they don't belong ahead of WBL.
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hs hockey fan
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hs hockey fan
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WBLHockeyfan04
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HShockeywatcher, How can you not say this Hill Murray team isn't different from the one earlier this year? They were ranked #1 in the state at that time, and were beating top heavy competition. I clearly thought they would walk through this section with no worries at all. Now, I would say they may be lucky to get to the section championship. I don't know if it's just a dislike you have towards WBL, but saying they don't deserve to be a top three seed is ridicoulous. They arguably have the most difficult schedule of all these teams, a decent record, and more quality wins against top 15 teams than anyone other than Hill Murray. Yes, WBL was 0-1-1 against Stillwater this year, but WBL been playing much better hockey than them over the last month. And clearly were the better team last night against Roseville. Sure, Tartan is having a nice year and I hope they get a good seed. But they clearly haven't beaten anyone that's legit this year other than Hill Murray last night.
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HShockeywatcher
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WBLHockeyfan04,
There's a lot in your message to respond to and I will try to hit it all
1. Hill Murray
Obviously Hill Murray is a different team than they were day 1. But so is every team.
Obviously they are a much different team and the bulk of the difficulty of their schedule was before they lost the 4 players. The big thing I am looking at is losing to St Thomas before the loss and beating them after it. They are definitely not the same team, or as good as, they were before, but they have overcome the adversity and made their team work without those players. Knowing what they could do with those players is a hypothetical at this point. My opinion is that they are still a quality team capable of competing with anyone.
2. Seeding
There are many different ways to look at seeding teams in sections and I will discuss the two I think are relevant.
a. Section Records
I think Tartan deserves the top seed in the same light that Duluth East deserves the top seed in section 7AA. Right now, based on games played and results, Elk River looks like the team to beat in section 7AA. But they have a head to head loss to Duluth East and will probably end up with the #2 seed, although they could easily be the top team. Tartan simply is undefeated against section opponents.
-Arguing that Tartan hasn't played WBL or Roseville is a mute point in my opinion. While Tartan hasn't played them, they have also not played Tartan to prove they are better than the undefeated team.
b. Top Team.
This is an interesting idea; ignoring the records against section opponents and just looking at how teams look overall. If you do this, it is tough to get a good picture; that being said, I don't know I could come up with a top team. Tartan has a relatively easy schedule but has done well with it, Hill Murray has a couple losses since they lost 4 key players that are questionable and MV, RV, WBL and SW are all knocking each other around in conference play.
My comments on WBL:
Before last night's game WBL had a loss to RV, loss to SW, wins against MN and loss to Hill, which would put them at possibly 5, but when considering how MV did against other opponents, I moved WBL down to #6. After last night's game, WBL could be anywhere.
All that being said, I think any team 1-6 has a chance of taking the section. And depending on how you look at games, you may come up with a slightly different result. I'm glad I don't have to be voitng. I don't have anything against any team; I have seen none of them play and am simply giving my opinion based on results of games played.
Personally, because of section records and the difficulty to compare schedules I would put Tartan and Hill at 1 and 2, could justify putting WBL at 3 because they are 2-0-1 in their last 3 section games, with Roseville coming at 4, Stillwater at 5 and Mound's View at 6, then NSP, SPCP, SPJ.
There's a lot in your message to respond to and I will try to hit it all
1. Hill Murray
Obviously Hill Murray is a different team than they were day 1. But so is every team.
Obviously they are a much different team and the bulk of the difficulty of their schedule was before they lost the 4 players. The big thing I am looking at is losing to St Thomas before the loss and beating them after it. They are definitely not the same team, or as good as, they were before, but they have overcome the adversity and made their team work without those players. Knowing what they could do with those players is a hypothetical at this point. My opinion is that they are still a quality team capable of competing with anyone.
2. Seeding
There are many different ways to look at seeding teams in sections and I will discuss the two I think are relevant.
a. Section Records
I think Tartan deserves the top seed in the same light that Duluth East deserves the top seed in section 7AA. Right now, based on games played and results, Elk River looks like the team to beat in section 7AA. But they have a head to head loss to Duluth East and will probably end up with the #2 seed, although they could easily be the top team. Tartan simply is undefeated against section opponents.
-Arguing that Tartan hasn't played WBL or Roseville is a mute point in my opinion. While Tartan hasn't played them, they have also not played Tartan to prove they are better than the undefeated team.
b. Top Team.
This is an interesting idea; ignoring the records against section opponents and just looking at how teams look overall. If you do this, it is tough to get a good picture; that being said, I don't know I could come up with a top team. Tartan has a relatively easy schedule but has done well with it, Hill Murray has a couple losses since they lost 4 key players that are questionable and MV, RV, WBL and SW are all knocking each other around in conference play.
My comments on WBL:
Before last night's game WBL had a loss to RV, loss to SW, wins against MN and loss to Hill, which would put them at possibly 5, but when considering how MV did against other opponents, I moved WBL down to #6. After last night's game, WBL could be anywhere.
All that being said, I think any team 1-6 has a chance of taking the section. And depending on how you look at games, you may come up with a slightly different result. I'm glad I don't have to be voitng. I don't have anything against any team; I have seen none of them play and am simply giving my opinion based on results of games played.
Personally, because of section records and the difficulty to compare schedules I would put Tartan and Hill at 1 and 2, could justify putting WBL at 3 because they are 2-0-1 in their last 3 section games, with Roseville coming at 4, Stillwater at 5 and Mound's View at 6, then NSP, SPCP, SPJ.
1. Hill
2. WBL
3. Tartan
4. Roseville
5. Stillwater
6. Moundsview
7. Johnson
8. NSP
9. Saints
10. Como
Except for Moundsview's W's against Roseville and Stillwater, they have nothing else to show for their season. With MV losses to Flake TWICE, Cretin, Roseville, Park, WBL twice, and HASTINGS I can see no valid justification for any seeding in the top 5.
2. WBL
3. Tartan
4. Roseville
5. Stillwater
6. Moundsview
7. Johnson
8. NSP
9. Saints
10. Como
Except for Moundsview's W's against Roseville and Stillwater, they have nothing else to show for their season. With MV losses to Flake TWICE, Cretin, Roseville, Park, WBL twice, and HASTINGS I can see no valid justification for any seeding in the top 5.
A lot of MV's losses were in OT or by one or two goals so its not like they're being completely shut out by these teams.got some wrote:1. Hill
2. WBL
3. Tartan
4. Roseville
5. Stillwater
6. Moundsview
7. Johnson
8. NSP
9. Saints
10. Como
Except for Moundsview's W's against Roseville and Stillwater, they have nothing else to show for their season. With MV losses to Flake TWICE, Cretin, Roseville, Park, WBL twice, and HASTINGS I can see no valid justification for any seeding in the top 5.
It's time to get a new name! In less than 24 hours, you moved WBL up from a #6 seed to #3.HShockeywatcher wrote: My comments on WBL:
Before last night's game WBL had a loss to RV, loss to SW, wins against MN and loss to Hill, which would put them at possibly 5, but when considering how MV did against other opponents, I moved WBL down to #6. After last night's game, WBL could be anywhere.
All that being said, I think any team 1-6 has a chance of taking the section. And depending on how you look at games, you may come up with a slightly different result. I'm glad I don't have to be voitng. I don't have anything against any team; I have seen none of them play and am simply giving my opinion based on results of games played.
Personally, because of section records and the difficulty to compare schedules I would put Tartan and Hill at 1 and 2, could justify putting WBL at 3 because they are 2-0-1 in their last 3 section games, with Roseville coming at 4, Stillwater at 5 and Mound's View at 6, then NSP, SPCP, SPJ.
Now look at the SEC standings and tell me WBL should be below Rose, Still, and MV. Woodbury and Cretin are not in our section:
Current S.E.C. standings (2-13-09)
Woodbury (12-1-1)
White Bear Lake (10-3-1)
Cretin (10-3-1)
Roseville (9-4-1)
Stillwater (5-7-3)
Forest Lake (4-9-1)
Hastings (3-8-2)
Mounds View (3-10-1)
Park (1-12-1)
I'm not sure of the Classic Suburban standings, but I believe HM is ahead of Tartan, and maybe STA and Maht. Can someone provide an up to date CSC standings?
Unofficial Classic Suburban Conference standings (2-13-09)BodyShots wrote:It's time to get a new name! In less than 24 hours, you moved WBL up from a #6 seed to #3.HShockeywatcher wrote: My comments on WBL:
Before last night's game WBL had a loss to RV, loss to SW, wins against MN and loss to Hill, which would put them at possibly 5, but when considering how MV did against other opponents, I moved WBL down to #6. After last night's game, WBL could be anywhere.
All that being said, I think any team 1-6 has a chance of taking the section. And depending on how you look at games, you may come up with a slightly different result. I'm glad I don't have to be voitng. I don't have anything against any team; I have seen none of them play and am simply giving my opinion based on results of games played.
Personally, because of section records and the difficulty to compare schedules I would put Tartan and Hill at 1 and 2, could justify putting WBL at 3 because they are 2-0-1 in their last 3 section games, with Roseville coming at 4, Stillwater at 5 and Mound's View at 6, then NSP, SPCP, SPJ.
Now look at the SEC standings and tell me WBL should be below Rose, Still, and MV. Woodbury and Cretin are not in our section:
Current S.E.C. standings (2-13-09)
Woodbury (12-1-1)
White Bear Lake (10-3-1)
Cretin (10-3-1)
Roseville (9-4-1)
Stillwater (5-7-3)
Forest Lake (4-9-1)
Hastings (3-8-2)
Mounds View (3-10-1)
Park (1-12-1)
I'm not sure of the Classic Suburban standings, but I believe HM is ahead of Tartan, and maybe STA and Maht. Can someone provide an up to date CSC standings?
St. Thomas Academy (11-1-1)
South St. Paul (9-3-1)
Hill-Murray (8-3-1)
Tartan (8-4-1)
Mahtomedi (7-5-0)
Richfield (7-8-0)
North St. Paul (4-9-0)
Henry Sibley (1-10-0)
Simley (1-12-0)
Last edited by wbmd on Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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HShockeywatcher
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My seeds as of now
1. White Bear Lake
They're playing their best hockey at the right time they may have lost to Hill earlier this year but that was before Hill got sevearly weakend by their little drug bust. I think right now they are the best team in this section
2. Hill-Murray
Yes I know they lost to Tartan but that was definatley not their best game. Even though this team lost 4 kids to expulsions when they come to play they can still compete (proved in their win over St. Thomas). I think this team is well coached and will be ready to fight their way through this very close section
3. Tartan
This team has improved tons since the begining of the season when they got thumped by Woodbury 8-2 on thankisgiving weekend. The real question though is have they improved enough to beat teams like Hill-Murray and White bear when it really counts.
4.Roseville
I don't know to much about this team but I'm going to go watch them tonight against Woodbury. I do know that they had a pretty good start to the season but it looks as so they may have hit a little bit of a slump falling from 2nd in the SEC standings to 4th.
5. Stillwater
Earlier this season people were wondering if this team was good enough to compete for the section title and lesson learned they're probably not. Their loss to Mounds View and the but kicking Woodbury gave them I think proves they are not in the same leval as the rest of the teams in this section and can now be considerd longshots to win but who knows no one expected Clouquet to get passed Duluth East and Anoka last year so you never know what could happen.
1. White Bear Lake
They're playing their best hockey at the right time they may have lost to Hill earlier this year but that was before Hill got sevearly weakend by their little drug bust. I think right now they are the best team in this section
2. Hill-Murray
Yes I know they lost to Tartan but that was definatley not their best game. Even though this team lost 4 kids to expulsions when they come to play they can still compete (proved in their win over St. Thomas). I think this team is well coached and will be ready to fight their way through this very close section
3. Tartan
This team has improved tons since the begining of the season when they got thumped by Woodbury 8-2 on thankisgiving weekend. The real question though is have they improved enough to beat teams like Hill-Murray and White bear when it really counts.
4.Roseville
I don't know to much about this team but I'm going to go watch them tonight against Woodbury. I do know that they had a pretty good start to the season but it looks as so they may have hit a little bit of a slump falling from 2nd in the SEC standings to 4th.
5. Stillwater
Earlier this season people were wondering if this team was good enough to compete for the section title and lesson learned they're probably not. Their loss to Mounds View and the but kicking Woodbury gave them I think proves they are not in the same leval as the rest of the teams in this section and can now be considerd longshots to win but who knows no one expected Clouquet to get passed Duluth East and Anoka last year so you never know what could happen.
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hs hockey fan
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And hill just lost today again.joycer10 wrote:My seeds as of now
1. White Bear Lake
They're playing their best hockey at the right time they may have lost to Hill earlier this year but that was before Hill got sevearly weakend by their little drug bust. I think right now they are the best team in this section
2. Hill-Murray
Yes I know they lost to Tartan but that was definatley not their best game. Even though this team lost 4 kids to expulsions when they come to play they can still compete (proved in their win over St. Thomas). I think this team is well coached and will be ready to fight their way through this very close section
3. Tartan
This team has improved tons since the begining of the season when they got thumped by Woodbury 8-2 on thankisgiving weekend. The real question though is have they improved enough to beat teams like Hill-Murray and White bear when it really counts.
4.Roseville
I don't know to much about this team but I'm going to go watch them tonight against Woodbury. I do know that they had a pretty good start to the season but it looks as so they may have hit a little bit of a slump falling from 2nd in the SEC standings to 4th.
5. Stillwater
Earlier this season people were wondering if this team was good enough to compete for the section title and lesson learned they're probably not. Their loss to Mounds View and the but kicking Woodbury gave them I think proves they are not in the same leval as the rest of the teams in this section and can now be considerd longshots to win but who knows no one expected Clouquet to get passed Duluth East and Anoka last year so you never know what could happen.
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thorhockey
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hockeyfan2009
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Are you the JV parent that wanted their kid up to Varsity.......this team is way different since those 4 kids got kicked off. For sure 2 of them have never been in trouble and should have gotten suspended. There is something fishy going on here......we will find out the answeres soon.joycer10 wrote:My seeds as of now
2. Hill-Murray
Yes I know they lost to Tartan but that was definatley not their best game. Even though this team lost 4 kids to expulsions when they come to play they can still compete (proved in their win over St. Thomas). I think this team is well coached and will be ready to fight their way through this very close section
.