Curious if anyone knows why we can seed all the teams in sections, many of the time when they are simply a guess, and yet we do not seed all the teams at state.
Hurting feelings cannot really be the reason as that happens in 16 sections every year and some get a ranking as low as 12.
Seeding all teams?
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
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hockeyjunkie2
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Re: Seeding all teams?
The problem wasn't necessarily in hockey. All the MSHSL sports that seed the state tournament are only seeded 1-4. This being because alot of the time in sections 1 and 8 specifically they don't play alot of metro teams and they feel they are screwed over by being seeded 7 and 8. Soccer was a sport that seeded all but had problems with coaches getting upset and then switched to the 1-4 format. I wish they would just do 1-8 though, I'm not a big fan of the 1-4 because if your the 1 seeded team why should you have to play the 5th best team or why should the last team to be seeded get to play whoever is looked upon as the worst team in state that year.HShockeywatcher wrote:Curious if anyone knows why we can seed all the teams in sections, many of the time when they are simply a guess, and yet we do not seed all the teams at state.
Hurting feelings cannot really be the reason as that happens in 16 sections every year and some get a ranking as low as 12.
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karl(east)
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I kinda have to wonder if they don't think that maybe they themselves can't accurately rank 5-8. And actually, same goes for 1-4. I think with the way it is set up, they're in a sense saying: This is our top 4 teams. However, that doesn't really cut it either because 1 and two are on opposite sides of the bracket.karl(east) wrote:What hockeyjunkie says makes sense. Also, even if hockey alone were given the choice to change, I doubt sections 1AA or 3A would ever sign on.
I also would prefer 1-8, but I guess what they do makes some sense.
It's still a crap shoot anyway, seed them all or seed none of them.
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HShockeywatcher
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I hate to admit this, but defense makes a good point.
Teams are playing the games, obviously the seedings aren't final for what will happen, it is just an indication of what your season was like. If you feel your competition wasn't great, then you should play better competition. Period.
It is a "crop shoot" but seeding them all is a better estimate of what will happen.
I can't really see the logic in the out of state teams thinking it's not fair; if you are seeded low and you really are better, once you win your first game you will be in a great position for the following games. If you don't, you wouldn't have won the title anyway.
I just remember two years ago (I think) in AA basketball when Maple Lake (I think) upset the #1 team, then upset the #2 team and ended up losing in the final. Sure, you can say they should've just won their last game, but in any ranking system that shouldn't be able to happen.
If they've been doing it differently in different sports, why can't hockey use all 8 since this really isn't an issue?
Teams are playing the games, obviously the seedings aren't final for what will happen, it is just an indication of what your season was like. If you feel your competition wasn't great, then you should play better competition. Period.
It is a "crop shoot" but seeding them all is a better estimate of what will happen.
I can't really see the logic in the out of state teams thinking it's not fair; if you are seeded low and you really are better, once you win your first game you will be in a great position for the following games. If you don't, you wouldn't have won the title anyway.
I just remember two years ago (I think) in AA basketball when Maple Lake (I think) upset the #1 team, then upset the #2 team and ended up losing in the final. Sure, you can say they should've just won their last game, but in any ranking system that shouldn't be able to happen.
If they've been doing it differently in different sports, why can't hockey use all 8 since this really isn't an issue?
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Goldy Gopher
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How many times are you going to use examples from other sports to try and help your hockey arguments?HShockeywatcher wrote:I hate to admit this, but defense makes a good point.
Teams are playing the games, obviously the seedings aren't final for what will happen, it is just an indication of what your season was like. If you feel your competition wasn't great, then you should play better competition. Period.
It is a "crop shoot" but seeding them all is a better estimate of what will happen.
I can't really see the logic in the out of state teams thinking it's not fair; if you are seeded low and you really are better, once you win your first game you will be in a great position for the following games. If you don't, you wouldn't have won the title anyway.
I just remember two years ago (I think) in AA basketball when Maple Lake (I think) upset the #1 team, then upset the #2 team and ended up losing in the final. Sure, you can say they should've just won their last game, but in any ranking system that shouldn't be able to happen.
If they've been doing it differently in different sports, why can't hockey use all 8 since this really isn't an issue?
It doesn't work.
The U invented swagger.
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southernmnscout
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I think the biggest complaint they had in the past was that the best two teams in the state sometimes had to play eachother in the first round at State, and this way they were hoping to have the best 2 teams not match up in the opening round.
No matter how they do it there will always be at least one team unhappy with the way it works out. I do not think there is a perfect way to seed for state since often times they do not have head to head match-ups during the regular season. Or even common opponents for that matter.
I actually like the fact that they are at least seeding 1-4 so we do not get the #1 and #2 teams in the state play in the opening round.
Just my opinion.
No matter how they do it there will always be at least one team unhappy with the way it works out. I do not think there is a perfect way to seed for state since often times they do not have head to head match-ups during the regular season. Or even common opponents for that matter.
I actually like the fact that they are at least seeding 1-4 so we do not get the #1 and #2 teams in the state play in the opening round.
Just my opinion.
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DotaDangler
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Goldy Gopher
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Coming into the state tourney they had the seeds right. Based on what Little Falls did during the regular season last year they were not a top four team in the state going into the tourney.DotaDangler wrote:If they only seed 4 like they do now, they need to make sure they get the rankings accurate. Or else we have a situation like last year, where the top two teams(STA, Little Falls) play each other in the opening round and all the other games are not even close.
The U invented swagger.
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HShockeywatcher
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Goldy Gopher,
hockeyjunkie2 made comments based on other sports and karl(east) agreed with him. Why not get mad at them?
That besides, my point was that since it is being done differently in different sports, it should be able to be done the right way in hockey, since in hockey teams from around the state do seem to play each other enough.
So yes, it does work. This would be contrasting two things, not comparing them. It is, in fact, exactly what would you be asking for. Nice try though.
southernmnscout,
very few are saying that seeding is not a good thing; the issue is that if you're going to seed you should for every spot. Imagine if only the top 4 were seeded for sections. That would be a laugh.
DotaDangler's point is why seeding needs to happen throughout all 8 spots. Although comparing margin of victory is not an exact science in any respect, of the 3 teams St Thomas played last year, Little Falls did the best against them. Put in the #5 spot, they may have walked away with the runner up trophy instead of the consolation champ trophy.
In a tournament where the only place you are playing for is 1st, sort of like football and hockey in WI, one could make an argument that seeding doesn't matter. In a tournament where more places are given, all teams must be seeded.
Try telling the WCHA, NHL, NCAA or any other organization to just seed the top half of the teams and they will laugh at you.
hockeyjunkie2 made comments based on other sports and karl(east) agreed with him. Why not get mad at them?
That besides, my point was that since it is being done differently in different sports, it should be able to be done the right way in hockey, since in hockey teams from around the state do seem to play each other enough.
So yes, it does work. This would be contrasting two things, not comparing them. It is, in fact, exactly what would you be asking for. Nice try though.
southernmnscout,
very few are saying that seeding is not a good thing; the issue is that if you're going to seed you should for every spot. Imagine if only the top 4 were seeded for sections. That would be a laugh.
DotaDangler's point is why seeding needs to happen throughout all 8 spots. Although comparing margin of victory is not an exact science in any respect, of the 3 teams St Thomas played last year, Little Falls did the best against them. Put in the #5 spot, they may have walked away with the runner up trophy instead of the consolation champ trophy.
In a tournament where the only place you are playing for is 1st, sort of like football and hockey in WI, one could make an argument that seeding doesn't matter. In a tournament where more places are given, all teams must be seeded.
Try telling the WCHA, NHL, NCAA or any other organization to just seed the top half of the teams and they will laugh at you.
This situation is completely different than high school hockey. The rankings can be much more accurate in the wcha, nhl, etc. than in high school hockey.HShockeywatcher wrote: Try telling the WCHA, NHL, NCAA or any other organization to just seed the top half of the teams and they will laugh at you.
It is not being done differently in other sports. Beginning this year, all sports that seed for state tournament are seeding 1-4 only.HShockeywatcher wrote:
That besides, my point was that since it is being done differently in different sports, it should be able to be done the right way in hockey, since in hockey teams from around the state do seem to play each other enough.
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HShockeywatcher
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[quote="hockeydad"][quote="HShockeywatcher"]
That besides, my point was that since it is being done differently in different sports, it should be able to be done the right way in hockey, since in hockey teams from around the state do seem to play each other enough.
[/quote]
It is not being done differently in other sports. Beginning this year, all sports that seed for state tournament are seeding 1-4 only. [b][/b][/quote]
It was started in hockey seeding only 1-4; doesn't work well. In other sports they started 1-8; didn't work well. Difference 1
It was seen in other sports teams who make it to state do not play enough teams from around the state, in hockey they do. Difference 2
Knowing these two differences, it is silly to continue only seeding 4 teams. LF last year is a prime example of why.
That besides, my point was that since it is being done differently in different sports, it should be able to be done the right way in hockey, since in hockey teams from around the state do seem to play each other enough.
[/quote]
It is not being done differently in other sports. Beginning this year, all sports that seed for state tournament are seeding 1-4 only. [b][/b][/quote]
It was started in hockey seeding only 1-4; doesn't work well. In other sports they started 1-8; didn't work well. Difference 1
It was seen in other sports teams who make it to state do not play enough teams from around the state, in hockey they do. Difference 2
Knowing these two differences, it is silly to continue only seeding 4 teams. LF last year is a prime example of why.
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southernmnscout
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But there is a much better chance that the teams in the Section have played each other in the regular season, making it easier to seed all of the teams. If they have not played each other, often times they have enough common opponents to make seeding easier.HShockeywatcher wrote: southernmnscout,
very few are saying that seeding is not a good thing; the issue is that if you're going to seed you should for every spot. Imagine if only the top 4 were seeded for sections. That would be a laugh.
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HShockeywatcher
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[quote="southernmnscout"][quote="HShockeywatcher"]
southernmnscout,
very few are saying that seeding is not a good thing; the issue is that if you're going to seed you should for every spot. Imagine if only the top 4 were seeded for sections. That would be a laugh.[/quote]
But there is a much better chance that the teams in the Section have played each other in the regular season, making it easier to seed all of the teams. If they have not played each other, often times they have enough common opponents to make seeding easier.[/quote]
Which is also true for the teams who make it to state in MSHSL hockey. Yes, there are cinderella stories here and there, but at least 14 out of the 16 teams that make it have enough to seed properly. And if they don't, they beat people who do to get to the dance.
southernmnscout,
very few are saying that seeding is not a good thing; the issue is that if you're going to seed you should for every spot. Imagine if only the top 4 were seeded for sections. That would be a laugh.[/quote]
But there is a much better chance that the teams in the Section have played each other in the regular season, making it easier to seed all of the teams. If they have not played each other, often times they have enough common opponents to make seeding easier.[/quote]
Which is also true for the teams who make it to state in MSHSL hockey. Yes, there are cinderella stories here and there, but at least 14 out of the 16 teams that make it have enough to seed properly. And if they don't, they beat people who do to get to the dance.
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David Sparrow#1
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southernmnscout
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MSHSL hockey is what I am talking about. All this talk you have about Basketball is confusing you. What are you talking about 14 of 16 teams???????HShockeywatcher wrote:Which is also true for the teams who make it to state in MSHSL hockey. Yes, there are cinderella stories here and there, but at least 14 out of the 16 teams that make it have enough to seed properly. And if they don't, they beat people who do to get to the dance.southernmnscout wrote:But there is a much better chance that the teams in the Section have played each other in the regular season, making it easier to seed all of the teams. If they have not played each other, often times they have enough common opponents to make seeding easier.HShockeywatcher wrote: southernmnscout,
very few are saying that seeding is not a good thing; the issue is that if you're going to seed you should for every spot. Imagine if only the top 4 were seeded for sections. That would be a laugh.
All I was saying is that I feel it is easier to seed all of the Section teams becasue often times they play each other in the regular season and when you get to State not all of the teams have played each other. Making it a little tougher to get the seeds correct.
There is not a system that will make everyone happy. In fact when LF gets the #1 seed at State this year, you along with others will complain that STA is not the #1 seed I am sure?
End of story!
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HShockeywatcher
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Where was basketball brought up?
Which words do I needs to define for you? Of the team 16 teams who make it (there are 2 classes, 8 teams from each section, 2x8=16) who make it, at least 14 will have enough head to head match ups or common opponents to be able to seed well. Section 3A won't and it's possible for another upset someone. Hockey's different, remember? Unlike in other sports where teams make it having not played other teams around the state, they don't in hockey. Which is why seeding all 8 would not be too difficult.
Give me that list and I'll define any words you do not understand...
Last year, despite outcry for other teams from this board, the seeders got it right. I have faith they will again. And if they don't, St Thomas will just have to beat Little Falls in their better looking jerseys.
Which words do I needs to define for you? Of the team 16 teams who make it (there are 2 classes, 8 teams from each section, 2x8=16) who make it, at least 14 will have enough head to head match ups or common opponents to be able to seed well. Section 3A won't and it's possible for another upset someone. Hockey's different, remember? Unlike in other sports where teams make it having not played other teams around the state, they don't in hockey. Which is why seeding all 8 would not be too difficult.
Give me that list and I'll define any words you do not understand...
Last year, despite outcry for other teams from this board, the seeders got it right. I have faith they will again. And if they don't, St Thomas will just have to beat Little Falls in their better looking jerseys.
In A hockey a lot of teams have zero common opponents, you can usually count on at least the teams from 1A and 8A having no common opponents and 3A with a majority of the other sections. As it stands now unless your name is Lourdes you can count on no team from 1A or 3A ever getting seeded (Lourdes being an independant has enough common opponents and head to head that they're easier to judge) no matter their record. Seeding only 4 allows teams from 1A and 3A at least a chance of drawing a #4 seed where if 8 were seeded they'd get #1 or #2 every year.
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HShockeywatcher
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I'll repeat:
In a tournament where the only place you are playing for is 1st, sort of like football in MN and hockey in WI, one could make an argument that seeding doesn't matter. In a tournament where more places are given, all teams must be seeded.
Your point is true, which is why I have said of the teams "that make it." I know that picking random teams from each section you will not have this. But there is a much small pool of teams who would possibly make it.
The goal is to win the title, right? Well, if you are seeded low and you really are better, once you win your first game you will be in a great position for the following games. If you don't, you wouldn't have won the title anyway.
In a tournament where the only place you are playing for is 1st, sort of like football in MN and hockey in WI, one could make an argument that seeding doesn't matter. In a tournament where more places are given, all teams must be seeded.
Your point is true, which is why I have said of the teams "that make it." I know that picking random teams from each section you will not have this. But there is a much small pool of teams who would possibly make it.
The goal is to win the title, right? Well, if you are seeded low and you really are better, once you win your first game you will be in a great position for the following games. If you don't, you wouldn't have won the title anyway.
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artifactually153
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HShockeywatcher wrote:Where was basketball brought up?
thats where it was brought upHShockeywatcher wrote:I just remember two years ago (I think) in AA basketball when Maple Lake (I think) upset the #1 team, then upset the #2 team and ended up losing in the final. Sure, you can say they should've just won their last game, but in any ranking system that shouldn't be able to happen.
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Goldy Gopher
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Since this is a thread full of pointless arguments, I'll make one of my own.
Put the tourney back to set sections playing each other, then you'll get exactly what you want. Every team in the state is seeded in 8 "regionals" or sections as we call them, and then they just play the bracket straight through.
Much like the NCAA basketball tourney, as long as we're talking about basketball.
Put the tourney back to set sections playing each other, then you'll get exactly what you want. Every team in the state is seeded in 8 "regionals" or sections as we call them, and then they just play the bracket straight through.
Much like the NCAA basketball tourney, as long as we're talking about basketball.
The U invented swagger.
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CoachHookom
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As a coach, seeding take away from the purpose of a state tournament.
I can see why you seed the top four teams, but seeding all teams would basically make a cinderella story a thing of the past.
Go back to rotating the sections and see what happens. The tournament had a more thrilling tone to it back then.
I can see why you seed the top four teams, but seeding all teams would basically make a cinderella story a thing of the past.
Go back to rotating the sections and see what happens. The tournament had a more thrilling tone to it back then.
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HShockeywatcher
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Lucia4President
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Try reading the whole post, not just the last line.HShockeywatcher wrote:"Much like the NCAA basketball tourney, as long as we're talking about basketball."
The NCAA basketball tourney doesn't seed? That's news to me.
The NCAA hockey tourney also seeds...
Goldy said that they should seed every team in the state, and play the bracket straight through. Last time I checked, that's pretty similar to the NCAA basketball tourney.
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