Section 4A
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
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MrHockey35
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Section 4A
Is this section wide open to take between mahtomedi, south st. paul, and st. thomas or will the cadets walk to state again?
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hockeyboys
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Nice. I like the bold prediction because it really could happen to Mahtomedi or SSP. I don't think it will, but still, nice.hockeyboys wrote:it is wide open - as the games have shown all year.
and... a prediction - one of these teams gets upset in the first round!
STA won't run, jog or walk out of this section. They are going to be laying flat on their backs after being upset in the championship game.
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hockeyroyals
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hockeykid15
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you guys are all rediculous its kinda sad actually. honestly sta has won this section twice, and theyre previous one before this twice, theyve made it to state 4 years in a row and just because they are a private school you guys are all over them. worroads made it to state every one of those yrs plus more and noone complains about them making it too much. honestly show some respect for these kids who skate around with a target on their back and still mannage to come out on top 9 times out of 10. i honestly think you guys who complain about private schools have something seriously wrong. its not the kids fault that their parents think that theyll get the best education there so you guys should stop holding that aginst them on the ice too
ppl who complain about sta being A are just mad
Who was complaining? They have a lot of youth and we don't think they'll win this year. They have had close games against both Mahtomedi and SSP so its very reasonable to think they might lose. Although, now that you bring it up, you are a comedian. First off, you are funny because you can't read and second, don't kid yourself, these kids have a target on their backs for a reason. They aren't going there for the education but I digress. I'm crazy.hockeykid15 wrote:you guys are all rediculous its kinda sad actually. honestly sta has won this section twice, and theyre previous one before this twice, theyve made it to state 4 years in a row and just because they are a private school you guys are all over them. worroads made it to state every one of those yrs plus more and noone complains about them making it too much. honestly show some respect for these kids who skate around with a target on their back and still mannage to come out on top 9 times out of 10. i honestly think you guys who complain about private schools have something seriously wrong. its not the kids fault that their parents think that theyll get the best education there so you guys should stop holding that aginst them on the ice too
haha
hockeykid.. please be quiet.
No one is complaining. People just like the idea that upsets can happen. If everyone always knew who was going to win, no one would watch or pay attention.
STA hasn't been in the tournament all that much (if at all) until like the last 5 years. In fact, Mahtomedi and South St. Paul have had WAY more appearances than STA.
If you don't at least entertain the idea that the best team can lose, why would anyone watch?
#1 teams have a target on their backs. That's how sports work. Who doesn't want to be the team to take out the best team?
Wow.. I can't believe I'm finding it necessary to actually explain that to some one.
Wanting to beat the best team has nothing to do with whether or not they are a private school.. Where the heck did you get that idea from?
What's even more ridiculous is your lack of comprehension skills. This thread is focusing on the idea that ANY of the top 4 teams could lose in this section. You chose to take this as a slam on STA. This would tell me that you are probably biased because you go there. With such terrible comprehension skills, maybe the great education that you claim they get isn't so great after all.
Enough about that though..
No one is complaining. People just like the idea that upsets can happen. If everyone always knew who was going to win, no one would watch or pay attention.
STA hasn't been in the tournament all that much (if at all) until like the last 5 years. In fact, Mahtomedi and South St. Paul have had WAY more appearances than STA.
If you don't at least entertain the idea that the best team can lose, why would anyone watch?
#1 teams have a target on their backs. That's how sports work. Who doesn't want to be the team to take out the best team?
Wow.. I can't believe I'm finding it necessary to actually explain that to some one.
Wanting to beat the best team has nothing to do with whether or not they are a private school.. Where the heck did you get that idea from?
What's even more ridiculous is your lack of comprehension skills. This thread is focusing on the idea that ANY of the top 4 teams could lose in this section. You chose to take this as a slam on STA. This would tell me that you are probably biased because you go there. With such terrible comprehension skills, maybe the great education that you claim they get isn't so great after all.
Enough about that though..
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spectator101
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a better education!!? haha hockeykid i would love to see christian isacson's ACT score, or Ryan Wolter's for that matter. Yes Warroad makes it to state becase a.)there section and b.) not a lot of teams up there near warroad can compete in the state tournament. Teams that can like south st paul, mahtomedi, totino grace, and others in the metro area never get the chance to play at excel simply because STA stops that from happening. And you really don't think STA should be playing AA? Don't you think when your beating teams 9-2 and 5-1 in the semi final and state championship games that that may be a hint? I'm not a anit-cadet..but i do believe some time in the near future that STA should make the jump. But i think Vanelli likes winning to much
um
STA is by no means a sure thing to win this section. They just tied Mahtomedi. There are 4 teams in this section who could all beat each other on any given day. This has nothing to do with whether or not STA is a private school. Will they end up winning the section? probably.. But knowing that there's a possibility that they won't has absolutely nothing to do with hating on their private education. I can't even begin to imagine where that conclusion came from.
If you want proof that they could lose, 2000. Heavily favored #1 seed. Lost to Farmington. it happens. Further, when that happened in 2000, no one gave Farmington a chance because STA was clearly far and away a better team. This year the same cannot be said about Mahtomedi or SSP. It's actually more likely that they lose this year than it was when it actually happened.
Though, I also don't agree that STA should be AA. So they've made it to state the last few years and won a couple titles. So what? They'd need to show a much longer stretch of class A dominance before considering a switch. Did anyone complain when Red Wing was blowing people out in the state final 9 - 0? Or when Warroad was doing the same thing? Just because St. Thomas has been really competitive the last 4 - 5 years doesn't mean that this will continue indefinitely.
If you want proof that they could lose, 2000. Heavily favored #1 seed. Lost to Farmington. it happens. Further, when that happened in 2000, no one gave Farmington a chance because STA was clearly far and away a better team. This year the same cannot be said about Mahtomedi or SSP. It's actually more likely that they lose this year than it was when it actually happened.
Though, I also don't agree that STA should be AA. So they've made it to state the last few years and won a couple titles. So what? They'd need to show a much longer stretch of class A dominance before considering a switch. Did anyone complain when Red Wing was blowing people out in the state final 9 - 0? Or when Warroad was doing the same thing? Just because St. Thomas has been really competitive the last 4 - 5 years doesn't mean that this will continue indefinitely.
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Rossbury21
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W-A-R-R-O-A-D
But to stay on topic:
Due to the extreme bias that I have towards South St. Paul(alumni) I would pick them no matter their seed, but this year it is a logical pick, and I'm sticking to my guns and saying South St. Paul, throw out the 5-0 loss to STA, they will beat Mahtomedi, and then beat STA in OT. 3-2
But to stay on topic:
Due to the extreme bias that I have towards South St. Paul(alumni) I would pick them no matter their seed, but this year it is a logical pick, and I'm sticking to my guns and saying South St. Paul, throw out the 5-0 loss to STA, they will beat Mahtomedi, and then beat STA in OT. 3-2
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HShockeywatcher
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"Its STA every year and i would just like to watch a different team at the Xcel this year"
No one's complaining? Really? The point about Warroad that hockeykid made is completely right. Warroad makes it to state religiously, has for the last 40 years. No one starts an 8A thread complaining about them. No one complains that Roseau/Moorhead own their section. No one is in the 6A thread saying they want Little Falls not to make it because it would be nice to see someone new. Then when someone stands up for it to call him stupid and tell him to stop talking?
My prediction for this is St Thomas. It is not a biased pick at all:
I believe the top 3 seeds will win their 1st games.
SSP has shown that, for whatever reason, they can beat Mahtomedi. Mahtomedi has shown they can play with St Thomas. I believe St Thomas will roll over their first opponent and SSP will beat Mahtomedi, leaving a final much like the most recent STA/SSP game.
Mahtomedi and St Thomas are the only teams I think have a shot at this title.
A thread about St Thomas usually turns into something about AA. Sure, if they were playing LF's schedule, the comments would be warranted, but their schedule wouldn't get too much tougher if they were to move up. Breck, DM and Totino are the only three games that would possibly change and all three would have a good case for staying on the schedule even if they opted up. Maybe the addition of Woodbury or WBL, but who knows?
No one's complaining? Really? The point about Warroad that hockeykid made is completely right. Warroad makes it to state religiously, has for the last 40 years. No one starts an 8A thread complaining about them. No one complains that Roseau/Moorhead own their section. No one is in the 6A thread saying they want Little Falls not to make it because it would be nice to see someone new. Then when someone stands up for it to call him stupid and tell him to stop talking?
My prediction for this is St Thomas. It is not a biased pick at all:
I believe the top 3 seeds will win their 1st games.
SSP has shown that, for whatever reason, they can beat Mahtomedi. Mahtomedi has shown they can play with St Thomas. I believe St Thomas will roll over their first opponent and SSP will beat Mahtomedi, leaving a final much like the most recent STA/SSP game.
Mahtomedi and St Thomas are the only teams I think have a shot at this title.
A thread about St Thomas usually turns into something about AA. Sure, if they were playing LF's schedule, the comments would be warranted, but their schedule wouldn't get too much tougher if they were to move up. Breck, DM and Totino are the only three games that would possibly change and all three would have a good case for staying on the schedule even if they opted up. Maybe the addition of Woodbury or WBL, but who knows?
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hockeykid15
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first off, the top 4 seeds have a chance? i mean yea i guess everyone has a chance but if i recall correctly the las meeting between sta and tg resulted in a 10 0 blowout. second of, hshockeywatcher is right, wat would you call those comments about i would like to see a new team and all that? because to me it sounds like complaining. than you have all the coments in reply to me fefemding a catholic shool. "they dont go there for the education" "id like to see act scores" thats also complaining in my book.true, when you are number one you have a targrt on your back, but also when you go to an all male, private, college prep school such as sta you also open yourself up to be the team everyone is gunning for. and yea i think you guys should go on a thread that talks about lf, because they are undefeated and they play how many top 20 teams? even top ten for that matter?
and lastly please donnot insult my PRIVATE school education anymore, if i wanted my posts to be gramatically correct and parentheically documented to mla standards, i would be consciencous of it. but the fact of the matter is, im not writting a paper for my english teacher, rather simpily discussing hockey on a forum so i do not really care if i have correct capitilization or perfect spelling[/list]
and lastly please donnot insult my PRIVATE school education anymore, if i wanted my posts to be gramatically correct and parentheically documented to mla standards, i would be consciencous of it. but the fact of the matter is, im not writting a paper for my english teacher, rather simpily discussing hockey on a forum so i do not really care if i have correct capitilization or perfect spelling[/list]
ppl who complain about sta being A are just mad
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karl(east)
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My advice to newish people on here: always use proper grammar.hockeykid15 wrote:first off, the top 4 seeds have a chance? i mean yea i guess everyone has a chance but if i recall correctly the las meeting between sta and tg resulted in a 10 0 blowout. second of, hshockeywatcher is right, wat would you call those comments about i would like to see a new team and all that? because to me it sounds like complaining. than you have all the coments in reply to me fefemding a catholic shool. "they dont go there for the education" "id like to see act scores" thats also complaining in my book.true, when you are number one you have a targrt on your back, but also when you go to an all male, private, college prep school such as sta you also open yourself up to be the team everyone is gunning for. and yea i think you guys should go on a thread that talks about lf, because they are undefeated and they play how many top 20 teams? even top ten for that matter?
and lastly please donnot insult my PRIVATE school education anymore, if i wanted my posts to be gramatically correct and parentheically documented to mla standards, i would be consciencous of it. but the fact of the matter is, im not writting a paper for my english teacher, rather simpily discussing hockey on a forum so i do not really care if i have correct capitilization or perfect spelling[/list]
Doing so may be the difference between whether people perceive you as a rambling, ranting high school student or an informed hockey fan who knows what he/she is talking about. It may not be right, but that's the way it is.
It's also a heck of a lot easier to read.
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Rossbury21
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Enrollments
Warroad 384
St. Thomas Academy 1082(which I believe is double the actual enrollment due the the fact that its a boys school)
That is why nobody complains about Warroad playing in Class A, even though I don't think STA should be AA, as much as I hated playing STA in sections, they are in the grey area for both A and AA. Just an interesting side note, TG has 1009, they are private and nobody gives them grief for being in A.
Warroad 384
St. Thomas Academy 1082(which I believe is double the actual enrollment due the the fact that its a boys school)
That is why nobody complains about Warroad playing in Class A, even though I don't think STA should be AA, as much as I hated playing STA in sections, they are in the grey area for both A and AA. Just an interesting side note, TG has 1009, they are private and nobody gives them grief for being in A.
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HShockeywatcher
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karl, as much as I respect a lot of what you say, saying that disrespect is given for poor grammar is far from the truth on here. Aside from mistyping defending as "fefemding" and using "than" instead of "then" his post was quite easy to read, unlike many that are made on here.
Rossbury21, what does enrollment have to do with respect given to schools? I don't know about all schools, but I'm guessing most schools with less than 100 students per class (less than 50 per gender) are fielding 6 winter sports, with multiple levels of teams, not including many other non-sport extracurricular activities. Not at all trying to say many other schools out there don't have these, but that is what is deceiving about enrollment. Comparing a school where 90% of the school participates in extracurriculars supporting that many activities to a school whose whole city revolves around hockey and everyone grows up on it and discussing an issue of enrollment being the difference of respect is simply ignorant.
Rossbury21, what does enrollment have to do with respect given to schools? I don't know about all schools, but I'm guessing most schools with less than 100 students per class (less than 50 per gender) are fielding 6 winter sports, with multiple levels of teams, not including many other non-sport extracurricular activities. Not at all trying to say many other schools out there don't have these, but that is what is deceiving about enrollment. Comparing a school where 90% of the school participates in extracurriculars supporting that many activities to a school whose whole city revolves around hockey and everyone grows up on it and discussing an issue of enrollment being the difference of respect is simply ignorant.
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Rossbury21
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hockeykid15
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They included the middle school too, ever since Jordan Schroeder and Anders Lee played in the program when they were in eight grade, or 5 years ago. This year, two eighth graders played jv, so it is somewhat legit that they include the extra 150 students (which is doubled) in the enrollment this year but still- the numbers are even skewedRossbury21 wrote:Enrollments
Warroad 384
St. Thomas Academy 1082(which I believe is double the actual enrollment due the the fact that its a boys school)
That is why nobody complains about Warroad playing in Class A, even though I don't think STA should be AA, as much as I hated playing STA in sections, they are in the grey area for both A and AA. Just an interesting side note, TG has 1009, they are private and nobody gives them grief for being in A.
ppl who complain about sta being A are just mad
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karl(east)
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I should have included "punctuation" along with grammar; that was my main contention. Funnily enough, I can tell people's relative ages on here very easily by the amount of punctuation used. Might be part of why people think I'm older than I am. And that does seem a bit silly...but maybe I just read into these sorts of things more than other people.HShockeywatcher wrote:karl, as much as I respect a lot of what you say, saying that disrespect is given for poor grammar is far from the truth on here. Aside from mistyping defending as "fefemding" and using "than" instead of "then" his post was quite easy to read, unlike many that are made on here.
As for the issue here...I don't see any reason for a compulsed force-up. If STA (or Warroad!) is happy winning A titles, so be it. I personally wouldn't, but it's their call, and I'm not going to judge them for it.
Edit: I should also note that I wouldn't bother wasting my time correcting someone who wasn't saying things that made some sense.
You all are ridiculous!
Open your eyes deacon. You think these outstanding hockey players are thinking of a career in finance or something when they go to a school? They are doing what is best so they can make it to the next level which is D1 hockey and possibly have a shot at the NHL down the line. How many 15 year old boys are thinking about what college has the best biology department when they are getting ready for their first days of high school? Give me a break!
Comparing STA and Warroad is just plain insane! They're two TOTALLY different schools and when a team primarily plays a double A schedule, man up and move!
Put both of these arguments to bed!
STA won't win this section.
Open your eyes deacon. You think these outstanding hockey players are thinking of a career in finance or something when they go to a school? They are doing what is best so they can make it to the next level which is D1 hockey and possibly have a shot at the NHL down the line. How many 15 year old boys are thinking about what college has the best biology department when they are getting ready for their first days of high school? Give me a break!
Comparing STA and Warroad is just plain insane! They're two TOTALLY different schools and when a team primarily plays a double A schedule, man up and move!
Put both of these arguments to bed!
STA won't win this section.
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lugnutguy21
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First of all I hate STA. Mainly cause they are better than a lot of teams. Being a former SSP Packer makes it more frustrating.hockeykid15 wrote:... and just because they are a private school you guys are all over them. ... show some respect for these kids who skate around with a target on their back and still mannage to come out on top 9 times out of 10. i honestly think you guys who complain about private schools have something seriously wrong. its not the kids fault that their parents think that theyll get the best education there so you guys should stop holding that aginst them on the ice too
But that aside the fact that most people hate all private schools is ridiculous. After the fact that we have open enrollment in this state, it is after all a private school. Their parents pay the tuition, thus they can go to which ever private school they or their parents want. End of Story.
Almost, just cause they have a target on their backs means we need to show some respect? Did North Stars fans show respect to the Black Hawks in the 80's and 90's? I used to hate those guys. Now a Wild fan I hate the Avs, Ducks, Flames and Stars(but thats a different story) because they are good, and they beat my/our team. Its part of life, taking the ribbing and go home.
Pack in OT
ahaha
Alright look.
First, hockeykid, the slams on your comprehension had nothing to do with correct punctuation. They had to do with how you turned peoples' ideas that an upset is possible into something completely unrelated.
Enrollment obviously has nothing to do with being A or AA. Look at Roseau and this argument seems to require no further discussion.
Now, for the reason why people say STA should be AA and not Warroad (not saying I agree, but here's the reasoning). If Warroad moved to AA, that would make room for a team to make it to state that is not competitive with the rest of the section champions. The simple fact of the matter is that there is not enough teams in the area who could compete at the Xcel. This would cause a team to be a section champion that would just get blown out every year.
The same cannot be said about STA. They have 2 or 3 other teams in their section every year that are completely capable of competing with other section champions. STA being class A makes it so the teams who are capable of competing don't get the chance, and often times these teams are better than other section champions, which makes the competitiveness less come tournament time. Further, STA has proven that they can compete with even the best AA schools.
It makes sense, but I don't like the 'wah they are better than us so get them out of our way' attitude. Especially since I don't think STA has shown a long enough continuous streak of class A dominance for such an argument to be relevant (rather subjective, of course).
Also hockey kid, apparently you didn't read the other post of why you cannot look back at a blow out in the regular season to determine how a team's season will end up. Last year DM beat STA 6 - 0, then STA destroyed them in the state final.
First, hockeykid, the slams on your comprehension had nothing to do with correct punctuation. They had to do with how you turned peoples' ideas that an upset is possible into something completely unrelated.
Enrollment obviously has nothing to do with being A or AA. Look at Roseau and this argument seems to require no further discussion.
Now, for the reason why people say STA should be AA and not Warroad (not saying I agree, but here's the reasoning). If Warroad moved to AA, that would make room for a team to make it to state that is not competitive with the rest of the section champions. The simple fact of the matter is that there is not enough teams in the area who could compete at the Xcel. This would cause a team to be a section champion that would just get blown out every year.
The same cannot be said about STA. They have 2 or 3 other teams in their section every year that are completely capable of competing with other section champions. STA being class A makes it so the teams who are capable of competing don't get the chance, and often times these teams are better than other section champions, which makes the competitiveness less come tournament time. Further, STA has proven that they can compete with even the best AA schools.
It makes sense, but I don't like the 'wah they are better than us so get them out of our way' attitude. Especially since I don't think STA has shown a long enough continuous streak of class A dominance for such an argument to be relevant (rather subjective, of course).
Also hockey kid, apparently you didn't read the other post of why you cannot look back at a blow out in the regular season to determine how a team's season will end up. Last year DM beat STA 6 - 0, then STA destroyed them in the state final.
You are being unrealistic. You are also being ignorant if you think these kids only think about hockey. Yes, playing hockey at STA may give them a better shot at playing D-I hockey and maybe even something further, but a lot of these kids, along with their parents, understand that they probably will not make it to the NHL. They want to a balance between a great education and great athletic opportunities. I went there, I know how much most of these kids care about what college they go to and things beyond just sports.dherman8 wrote:You all are ridiculous!
Open your eyes deacon. You think these outstanding hockey players are thinking of a career in finance or something when they go to a school? They are doing what is best so they can make it to the next level which is D1 hockey and possibly have a shot at the NHL down the line. How many 15 year old boys are thinking about what college has the best biology department when they are getting ready for their first days of high school? Give me a break!
Comparing STA and Warroad is just plain insane! They're two TOTALLY different schools and when a team primarily plays a double A schedule, man up and move!
Put both of these arguments to bed!
STA won't win this section.
Also, "man up and move to AA" is such dumb thing to say. The sample size of STA's success is incredibly too small. In 2003 they only won something like 5 games, and the year before and the year before that was much of the same. Maybe in 7-10 years after continued and established success they will move up, but now is not the time. I can not believe people who don't understand this. For what it's worth, STA's swim team has won 8 out of the last 9 state championships, but they remain in class A. They have several All-Americans every year and a lot of their times are good enough to beat half the Big10 schools, but they don't move up. It's going to take a while for the hockey team to move up so stop wasting your time arguing over it and just deal with it.
Dear god. Someone who finally understands. This is pretty much a reiteration of what I was saying.deacon wrote:
The sample size of STA's success is incredibly too small. In 2003 they only won something like 5 games, and the year before and the year before that was much of the same. Maybe in 7-10 years after continued and established success they will move up.
Regarding academic focus when choosing to go to STA... The people arguing that academics don't take precedents at this school are off base. Most of these arguments include the names of a very select few students. Add Anders Lee's name into the mix. Sure, you can say that his focus wasn't on academics (in fact it would be absurd to say that). He won a state championship with STA, then the very next year he went to Edina. When you consider players in this situation whos futures probably do include a D 1 or perhaps an NHL career, once again the sampling is statisticly too small to reflect the academic focus of the entire school. You're talking like 4 out of 1000 + students and trying to use that as a basis for that claim.
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HShockeywatcher
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- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:21 pm
lugnutguy21,
where is the line drawn between respect an hate? Hating someone (or a group of someones) because they are good at something is silly. If the hate you have for them is "because they are good" that is awesome. But you would be very naive to believe that is the case for everyone.
adamp1914,
that is an interesting perspective and actually makes sense.
That being said, doesn't that go back to what lugnutguy21 said though? Both SSP and Maht tied STA this year. This section is open. If STA makes it this year, shouldn't any hate be directed toward other teams for stepping up and taking STA down? If you are right in that there are 2 or 3 other teams yearly who could make it, why is it their fault they aren't getting beat?
I would also argue that TRF has shown they could play for an 8AA title most years, just as well as Warroad.
I would also argue that the MSHSL is to blame, not the school.
dherman8,
you are totally right, Warroad and St Thomas are two totally different schools. One is located in a town where there is very little to do and everyone grows up playing hockey while the other has a multitude of people who don't play hockey and didn't become good on a regular basis until a hockey arena was built on campus. If you were to show those two descriptions to people without having their names attached to them, are you naive enough to think people would really pick St Thomas as the school of the two who should move up?
I do still cannot begin to understand why so many people associated with class A from communities whose schools have better reason to move to AA than other schools would bring up the topic. Hockey is the only sport teams opting up is a regular thing. Why are people so against teams not being allowed to opt up?
My prediction:
STA over SLP
SSP over Maht
STA over SSP
If Maht can manage an upset in the semi's, the final could easily go their way.
where is the line drawn between respect an hate? Hating someone (or a group of someones) because they are good at something is silly. If the hate you have for them is "because they are good" that is awesome. But you would be very naive to believe that is the case for everyone.
adamp1914,
that is an interesting perspective and actually makes sense.
That being said, doesn't that go back to what lugnutguy21 said though? Both SSP and Maht tied STA this year. This section is open. If STA makes it this year, shouldn't any hate be directed toward other teams for stepping up and taking STA down? If you are right in that there are 2 or 3 other teams yearly who could make it, why is it their fault they aren't getting beat?
I would also argue that TRF has shown they could play for an 8AA title most years, just as well as Warroad.
I would also argue that the MSHSL is to blame, not the school.
dherman8,
you are totally right, Warroad and St Thomas are two totally different schools. One is located in a town where there is very little to do and everyone grows up playing hockey while the other has a multitude of people who don't play hockey and didn't become good on a regular basis until a hockey arena was built on campus. If you were to show those two descriptions to people without having their names attached to them, are you naive enough to think people would really pick St Thomas as the school of the two who should move up?
I do still cannot begin to understand why so many people associated with class A from communities whose schools have better reason to move to AA than other schools would bring up the topic. Hockey is the only sport teams opting up is a regular thing. Why are people so against teams not being allowed to opt up?
My prediction:
STA over SLP
SSP over Maht
STA over SSP
If Maht can manage an upset in the semi's, the final could easily go their way.
Last edited by HShockeywatcher on Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.