Section Realignment

[lakeconf.hockey]

it seems that once again it is section 1AA turn to get verbally abused.

therefore, please give some suggestions as to how you would re-do the sections.

[karl(east)]

Here is my attempt. This is done mostly in the interest of competitive balance, while maintaining the geographical arrangement that makes sense. Because of this, I am not making radical changes, but simply re-adjusting a few teams.

First off, I think 4 sections are not broken and do not need to be fixed:
4AA: Down a bit this year, but has a number of historically competitive programs and good rivalries.
5AA: Looks a bit strong this year, but MG needs to sustain its success to force any sort of change. It works as it is.
7AA: A bit strange this year as both of last year's section final teams had awful years, but still a lot of great programs.
8AA: A bit awkward, but not really any way else to do it. And as long as Roseau and Moorhead stay competitive at state, there's no reason to inject more strength into this one.

The others:
1AA: weak, obviously.
2AA: too strong.
3AA: some decent depth, but no real front line programs except Woodbury, which is about to get broken up.
6AA: too strong.

So the obvious solution here is to move teams from sections 2 and 6 into 1 and 3.

First, I'd move Burnsville into section 1. They have some history there; it's where they were during their title runs in the 80s. It doesn't make complete geographical sense, but enough that it works.

Next, I'd slide the Bloomingtons into section 3. To compensate, I'd move Apple Valley and Eastview into section 2.

Section 1 now has too many teams, so LeSueur moves north a ways into section 2.

Finally, move Benilde into section 2, and Chaska north into section 6.

That leaves us with these competitive teams:
1AA
Burnsville
Lakevilles
Rochesters

2AA
Edina
Holy Angels
Benilde
AV/Eastview/Chaska

3AA
Jefferson
Cretin
Woodbury
Eagan

6AA
EP
Minnetonka
Hopkins
Wayzata

Best I can do, at least. There is a realignment after this year. We'll see what the MSHSL does.

[HockeyMN1]

I like what you did there, but 6 would still be much tougher than the rest of them. I would move the lakevilles into 6 and take out a hopkins or something like that.

[karl(east)]

Yeah, 6 is probably a bit too strong still. There are just a few too many good programs in the west metro. Throwing Lakevilles up there would obviously fix the problem, but geography then becomes an issue.

Here's the map, which is very useful:
http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/googlemap.as ... &dclass=AA

If other people want to play realignment, I'd suggest starting with that.

[O-townClown]

Nice on the map. I'd add Thunder Bay to Section 7 and Winnipeg, Grand Forks, and Fargo to Section 8.

Eau Claire and any other Wisconsin teams that want in to Section 1.

[HockeyMN1]

Yea nice map, maybe switch Shakopee and Tonka?

[karl(east)]

Perhaps, but then section 2 might be too strong.

Also, while Wayzata and Hopkins are good, neither has much in the way of a history. I guess I'm banking on that to balance out section 6 a bit.

[BlaineAlum]

I like what you did karl(east). On a minor note I'd bring Anoka from 7 back to 5. There's no reason 7 should have 10 teams and 5 have 8. Plus, although Anoka was down this year they are traditionally strong rivals with Blaine and the other section 5 teams.

[karl(east)]

I like what you did karl(east). On a minor note I'd bring Anoka from 7 back to 5. There's no reason 7 should have 10 teams and 5 have 8. Plus, although Anoka was down this year they are traditionally strong rivals with Blaine and the other section 5 teams.

Yeah, as a loyalist to a "northern" 7AA, I sure wouldn't mind seeing Anoka back in 5AA either!

They'll have a new team in 7AA within the next five years, too, when they consolidate the Duluth schools, so someone should be forced out, and the logical choice is Anoka.

Now that I think about it, I wouldn't be shocked at all if they went back to 5AA with the new realignment. Even if they don't do the other things I would like them to do, this one seems like a no-brainer.

[Saintpaulhockey1]

Isn't there another team likely joining 3AA next year from the SE metro?

[karl(east)]

Isn't there another team likely joining 3AA next year from the SE metro?

I know East Ridge HS is opening next year, so I suppose so (though will they be fielding a varsity team next year?)

No matter what, I think we'll just toss them into 3AA. Nowhere else makes any sense.

[eagle4life9]

Also Chanhassen High School will be open also so there is another team in section 6's area.

Also, some of you have mentioned moving the Lakevilles into 6 or 2 and that would be fine geographically and would put the Lakevilles into much more competitive sections but we are still left with an even weaker 1AA. So in the interest of competitive balance you have to keep the Lakevilles in 1 and move other team like other south metro teams in.

[Zamman]

Sorry, no one south of the river should be in section 2. Take Burnsville, Shakopee and Prior Lake and move them. Combine 2 and 6 to make two sections. Add some other school to keep the numbers the same.

[wbmd]

Isn't there another team likely joining 3AA next year from the SE metro?

I know East Ridge HS is opening next year, so I suppose so (though will they be fielding a varsity team next year?)

No matter what, I think we'll just toss them into 3AA. Nowhere else makes any sense.

Yes, East Ridge will have all varsity sports next year. No seniors til 2010-11 season.

[hockeydad]

I liked Karl's suggestions because it keeps some geographical integrity.

If you need to move a 1AA team out to keep section size in balance, Farmington to 3 would make more sense than Le Sueur to 2. Farmington is just a few miles south of other 3AA teams, while Le Sueur is about 35 miles from Chaska

Though when you think about it, Le Sueur is more than 30 miles from anywhere i Section 1AA

[hockeyjunkie2]

1AA (10): Mayo, JM, Century, Lakeville North, Lakeville South, Rosemount, Burnsville, Dodge County, Apple Valley, Eastview
2AA (9): Owatonna, St. Peter/Lesueur, Chaska, Chanhassen, Kennedy, Jefferson, Shakopee, Holy Angels, Prior Lake
3AA (10): Winona, Eagan, Farmington, Sibley, Park, East Ridge, Woodbury, Tartan, Stillwater, Hastings
4AA (11): Hill-Murray, Mounds View, WBL, Roseville, St. Paul Johnson, St. Paul Saints, Forest Lake, Cambridge-Isanti, St. Paul Como Park, North St. Paul, CDH
5AA (9): Blaine, Centennial, Maple Grove, Princeton, St. Francis, Champlin Park, Osseo, North Metro, Irondale
6AA (9): Eden Prairie, Minnetonka, Hopkins, Edina, Mpls. East, Mpls. West, Buffalo, River Lakes, Monticello
7AA (9): Andover, Anoka, Cloquet, Duluth East, Elk River, Grand Rapids, Cooper, Armstrong, Becker-Big Lake
8AA (9): Brainerd, Moorhead, Northern Lakes, Roseau, St. Cloud Tech, BSM, Wayzata, Coon Rapids, Rogers/Zimmerman

I think I have all the AA schools in here including Chanhassen and East Ridge. I kept with the MSHSL's geographic ways. I also tried to mix and have out-state teams in each section working outward from the Metro. If I missed someone or have someone twice just let me know and I'll edit.

[Doc Holliday]

Also, while Wayzata and Hopkins are good, neither has much in the way of a history. I guess I'm banking on that to balance out section 6 a bit.

While you're probably on the mark with Hopkins in terms of being up & down, I think Wayzata is a safe bet to be an upper tier team in the state for a while, due to numbers and youth success. Their problem is keeping guys at Wayzata instead of at Benilde, Breck & Blake.

Bottom line: you're always going to have one unbalanced section in terms of both too week and too strong. I think the first move should be to find a way to get the south of the river teams (Burnsville, AV, Eastview, perhaps Eagan as well) with Section 1AA. Obviously not all can go, but that would a start.

[formerlybackofnet]

OK, I'll start it, all the private shcools should be in a single section.

[goldy313]

You can't really do this until the next enrollment figures come out this spring and co-ops are dropped or added. Right now John Marshall is the smallest AA school by enrollment and Alexandria is the biigest A school. 1AA is the largest AA section with 10 teams so the odds of anyone getting added are slight even if John Marshall becomes a 1A team or any of the 3 co-ops drop a school.

That said 1AA is annually a kicking board for this but the reasoning isn't as much fact as tradition. The Lake schools have been bad yet somehow the thought that 1AA would be stronger by adding a Lake school makes sense to most people although doesn't hold up to what actually happens on the ice. The Lake is so big that the non conference games are so few and far between it's hard to judge them. Teams that come into the state tournament highly rated like Jefferson and Eden Prairie have fallen flat the past 10 years, in fact the best a Lake team has done the past 10 years is fourth, that's worse than 1AA by the way. Also head to head Big Nine teams are 2-1 against Lake teams in the State Tournament the past 10 years. Just because you're from Eagan or Apple Valley or Eastview doesn't make you any better than a team from 1AA it just makes you from Apple Valley, Eagan, or Eastview.

It's ironic how teams geograpically closer to 1AA like Hastings, Park, or Rosemount are never mentioned in this discussion.

[karl(east)]

Many good things are being said here. I'll reply to a bunch of them.

hockeydad: LeSueur definitely is in the middle of nowhere, so that's why I moved them. But looking at things, perhaps we could put Farmington in 3AA, then move Rosemount to 2AA to balance things. Either way would work.

hockeyjunkie2: Very good work. One minor problem, though: Rogers left their co-op with Zimmerman and dropped to A. Otherwise it looks great.

Doc Holliday: Yeah, you're probably right about Wayzata. But at least with 3 consistently strong teams, my 6AA isn't too horribly different from the other AA Metro sections.

formerlybackofnet: I am leery of doing something like that, because I think it's very possible that the privates would then quit the MSHSL in protest and go the Shattuck route, which would allow them to actively recruit and would be very bad for the rest of MN HS hockey.

But I do think it would be fun to see what that would look like, simply out of curiosity, if someone wanted to arrange some new sections that way.

[HockeyMN1]

I actually like mixing the private and public schools, makes things a little more interesting and it gives fans an oppurtunity to see more teams play.

[BlaineAlum]

I'm not necessarilly for this but what do people think about going back to one class? There'd be 16 sections with 16 teams going to state. It should allow for better geographic divisions as well as balanced strength. OR, going the other way, how about adding a class allowing for further separation of really strong teams from really weak teams? My guess is most people are going to be strongly against both options; I pretty much am too. But might get some interesting responses; I hope it's not too far off topic.

[karl(east)]

I'm not necessarilly for this but what do people think about going back to one class? There'd be 16 sections with 16 teams going to state. It should allow for better geographic divisions as well as balanced strength. OR, going the other way, how about adding a class allowing for further separation of really strong teams from really weak teams? My guess is most people are going to be strongly against both options; I pretty much am too. But might get some interesting responses; I hope it's not too far off topic.

Well, I messed around a bit with the 1-class, 16-team option last year, and came up with this. I went into it not sure what I would find, and I ended up deciding that what we have is better than this option, as this thread shows:

http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic. ... ass+16team

The 3-class option is a new idea. Just thinking about it at first, I'd probably hate it. But if someone wants to get cozy with the MSHSL enrollment page and try to work out 3 classes, it might be interesting to see.

[hockeydad]

Here's another possible new program. Last fall people were talking about highland park splitting away from the coop they are in now and restarting a program, competing in Class A. Is that going to happen?

[b-rad]

I doubt the 1 class 16 team will ever get a chance, although id like to see it tried. How about the A champ playing the AA champ? I wonder if the MSHSL has thought about trying that?