Are those supposed to be insulting or even funny for that matter?Theclassicburbs wrote:All I can say is if STA makes it to St. Paul there will be a lot of "GOD HATES YOU" and "GOD LOVES US FOR FREE" chants and I will be laughing all day long... GO PUBLIC SCHOOLS!
Section 4A
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
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lugnutguy21
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I can imagine you simple minded people thinking that's funny, and that cracks me up.lugnutguy21 wrote:That one is!deacon wrote:Are those supposed to be insulting or even funny for that matter?Theclassicburbs wrote: .... "GOD LOVES US FOR FREE" chants and I will be laughing all day long... GO PUBLIC SCHOOLS!
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lugnutguy21
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HShockeywatcher
- Posts: 6848
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:21 pm
karl, very nice post. Nothing you said is wrong, although I disagree with a couple points.
1. My frustration isn't that the AA tourney is favored. I'm not arrogant enough to think that would ever change. I don't like how a. hockey fans seem to try to say that the AA team is always the better team and b. the MSHSL seems to be favoring AA as well.
a. I don't need to relist an examples I have in the past, but (as hockey fans everywhere will tell you) enrollment has little to do with talent in hockey. Since this is the case, the AA shouldn't be thought of as the real tourney.
b. Saturday, March 14th, the A 3rd place game is at 9am and the final at noon, then the AA 3rd place game at 4pm and the final at 7pm. If the Class A final and AA 3rd place games were switch, I'd have no issue. AA should be favored for a multitude of reasons, but their 3rd place game shoudn't be put over the A final, as it clearly is.
2. Imagine the year where both Roseau and Moorhead win state titles (obviously fictional, as Moorhead probably never will). No one would name Moorhead the best team in state with head to head losses to Roseau. A good majority of the time the team in the higher class is the better all around team and would win 80% of head to head match ups. The perception that this is true 100% of the time, though, is what would blind people from the reality in the years this is not the case.
3. I don't know you opinions from the public schools thread, nor will I go into much detail of mine. All I will say is that there are multiple schools in every sport showing us this is not only private school issue (that is, if you believe it is an issue).
1. My frustration isn't that the AA tourney is favored. I'm not arrogant enough to think that would ever change. I don't like how a. hockey fans seem to try to say that the AA team is always the better team and b. the MSHSL seems to be favoring AA as well.
a. I don't need to relist an examples I have in the past, but (as hockey fans everywhere will tell you) enrollment has little to do with talent in hockey. Since this is the case, the AA shouldn't be thought of as the real tourney.
b. Saturday, March 14th, the A 3rd place game is at 9am and the final at noon, then the AA 3rd place game at 4pm and the final at 7pm. If the Class A final and AA 3rd place games were switch, I'd have no issue. AA should be favored for a multitude of reasons, but their 3rd place game shoudn't be put over the A final, as it clearly is.
2. Imagine the year where both Roseau and Moorhead win state titles (obviously fictional, as Moorhead probably never will). No one would name Moorhead the best team in state with head to head losses to Roseau. A good majority of the time the team in the higher class is the better all around team and would win 80% of head to head match ups. The perception that this is true 100% of the time, though, is what would blind people from the reality in the years this is not the case.
3. I don't know you opinions from the public schools thread, nor will I go into much detail of mine. All I will say is that there are multiple schools in every sport showing us this is not only private school issue (that is, if you believe it is an issue).
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karl(east)
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In response:HShockeywatcher wrote:karl, very nice post. Nothing you said is wrong, although I disagree with a couple points.
1. My frustration isn't that the AA tourney is favored. I'm not arrogant enough to think that would ever change. I don't like how a. hockey fans seem to try to say that the AA team is always the better team and b. the MSHSL seems to be favoring AA as well.
a. I don't need to relist an examples I have in the past, but (as hockey fans everywhere will tell you) enrollment has little to do with talent in hockey. Since this is the case, the AA shouldn't be thought of as the real tourney.
b. Saturday, March 14th, the A 3rd place game is at 9am and the final at noon, then the AA 3rd place game at 4pm and the final at 7pm. If the Class A final and AA 3rd place games were switch, I'd have no issue. AA should be favored for a multitude of reasons, but their 3rd place game shoudn't be put over the A final, as it clearly is.
2. Imagine the year where both Roseau and Moorhead win state titles (obviously fictional, as Moorhead probably never will). No one would name Moorhead the best team in state with head to head losses to Roseau. A good majority of the time the team in the higher class is the better all around team and would win 80% of head to head match ups. The perception that this is true 100% of the time, though, is what would blind people from the reality in the years this is not the case.
3. I don't know you opinions from the public schools thread, nor will I go into much detail of mine. All I will say is that there are multiple schools in every sport showing us this is not only private school issue (that is, if you believe it is an issue).
1. I think you have just offered a couple of very good ways in which the standing of A hockey can be improved without forcing teams to play where they don't want to, such as moving the time of the championship and continued efforts at positive exposure on places like this.
2. Not a bad point...but I am picturing the arguments that would emerge from the scenario you proposed and am cringing at the thought of them.
3. I'm afraid I didn't quite understand what you're getting at here. But we may be getting into PM territory.
In response to your 1b post, I don't think the class AA third place game is being favored over the Class A championship. If both 3rd place games were in one session and both championships in the later one, they would not make nearly as much money as they do by spreading them out.HShockeywatcher wrote:karl, very nice post. Nothing you said is wrong, although I disagree with a couple points.
1. My frustration isn't that the AA tourney is favored. I'm not arrogant enough to think that would ever change. I don't like how a. hockey fans seem to try to say that the AA team is always the better team and b. the MSHSL seems to be favoring AA as well.
a. I don't need to relist an examples I have in the past, but (as hockey fans everywhere will tell you) enrollment has little to do with talent in hockey. Since this is the case, the AA shouldn't be thought of as the real tourney.
b. Saturday, March 14th, the A 3rd place game is at 9am and the final at noon, then the AA 3rd place game at 4pm and the final at 7pm. If the Class A final and AA 3rd place games were switch, I'd have no issue. AA should be favored for a multitude of reasons, but their 3rd place game shoudn't be put over the A final, as it clearly is.
2. Imagine the year where both Roseau and Moorhead win state titles (obviously fictional, as Moorhead probably never will). No one would name Moorhead the best team in state with head to head losses to Roseau. A good majority of the time the team in the higher class is the better all around team and would win 80% of head to head match ups. The perception that this is true 100% of the time, though, is what would blind people from the reality in the years this is not the case.
3. I don't know you opinions from the public schools thread, nor will I go into much detail of mine. All I will say is that there are multiple schools in every sport showing us this is not only private school issue (that is, if you believe it is an issue).
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HShockeywatcher
- Posts: 6848
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:21 pm
mch, how do you figure? It's a Saturday. If the game were being played during the work week, I would agree, but whether the game is at noon or 4pm on a Saturday probably has little to with attendance.
I would actually argue the opposite, that it would increase attendance; people who were planning to attend the AA games may go to the Class A final as well.
I would actually argue the opposite, that it would increase attendance; people who were planning to attend the AA games may go to the Class A final as well.
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thestickler07
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The reason why the AA 3rd place game is played in the slot before the AA championship is because the AA sessions are assigned seating on tickets while the A sessions are general admission. People that hold AA "season tickets" are buying games for the two game session and therefore are fairly likely to also attend the 3rd place game.
It is logistically foolish to switch the ticket situation to an assigned format just for the A championship and leave the rest of it general admission. There is very little to no chance people would buy "season tickets" again for just the A tournament. As such it wouldn't make sense to go away from the general admission in class A.
Class AA is seen as "the tourney" because that's what it is. The biggest schools, that will a vast majority of the time field the best/deepest teams and the opt-ups that can compete duke it out in grand style in front of sell out crowds.
Just like Division I basketball being bigger than Division II in college, are there some better DII than DI schools? Absolutely, but far few people care about the DII tournament than the DI bracket because the teams that care know what level they have to play on to be regarded as such.
I understand this isn't a perfect parallel, and that the talent gaps between DI and DII college basketball and class A and class AA hockey isn't the same, the DII champ would have zero feasible chance of beating the DI champ. But that is balanced out by the ease of getting into the more prestigious tournament. If an NCAA team wants to go up a level of competition they have to do expense feasibility studies, get approved for a new conference, spend usually hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars on facilities, and sit out the postseason for a few years in their new division. All high school hockey teams have to do is write a letter to the MSHSL, essentially a formality, and they are approved and assigned the next two year section cycle.
Its so little effort that instead of arguing about it, I wonder why STA and other schools in their position just don't do it. It looks better, the players will adapt to the higher competition and raise their game, and its more prestigious overall. Seems like a no brainer to me.
It is logistically foolish to switch the ticket situation to an assigned format just for the A championship and leave the rest of it general admission. There is very little to no chance people would buy "season tickets" again for just the A tournament. As such it wouldn't make sense to go away from the general admission in class A.
Class AA is seen as "the tourney" because that's what it is. The biggest schools, that will a vast majority of the time field the best/deepest teams and the opt-ups that can compete duke it out in grand style in front of sell out crowds.
Just like Division I basketball being bigger than Division II in college, are there some better DII than DI schools? Absolutely, but far few people care about the DII tournament than the DI bracket because the teams that care know what level they have to play on to be regarded as such.
I understand this isn't a perfect parallel, and that the talent gaps between DI and DII college basketball and class A and class AA hockey isn't the same, the DII champ would have zero feasible chance of beating the DI champ. But that is balanced out by the ease of getting into the more prestigious tournament. If an NCAA team wants to go up a level of competition they have to do expense feasibility studies, get approved for a new conference, spend usually hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars on facilities, and sit out the postseason for a few years in their new division. All high school hockey teams have to do is write a letter to the MSHSL, essentially a formality, and they are approved and assigned the next two year section cycle.
Its so little effort that instead of arguing about it, I wonder why STA and other schools in their position just don't do it. It looks better, the players will adapt to the higher competition and raise their game, and its more prestigious overall. Seems like a no brainer to me.