Age re-structuring for Mn youth hockey

TennJed · Post by **TennJed** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:01 pm

Have heard possible age re-structuring is up for vote this summer by Mn hockey. Any truth to this and if so,how will it affect second yr. players this year?

jackstraw · Post by **jackstraw** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:29 pm

Not sure about the age thing, I just had to have Jackstraw respond to Tennessee Jed!

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:30 pm

There has been no formalized by-law change presented.

Being discussed is change in how to handle kids born in the summer to try and keep them with their class-mates.

Its a complicated issue and is being examined from various angles to determine if another method of grouping kids is possible.

TennJed · Post by **TennJed** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:30 pm

Always glad to hear from an old friend !!

TennJed · Post by **TennJed** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:34 pm

Thanks,elliot. Thought someone would weigh in on this.Wanted to get more solid input rather than speculation.

Iceman33 · Post by **Iceman33** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:09 pm

It's seems like a simple solution. I have always thought the birth year thing is kind of an odd way to do it. Since 10, 11, 12 graders play high school. Why wouldn't you just make it a grade thing through the whole process. It seems pretty simple....
4th-5th graders - Squirts
6th-7th graders - Peewees
8th-9th graders - Bantams
10, 11th, 12th - High School

iwearmysunglassesatnight · Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:51 pm

Is there a way to get involved? It would be great if summer birthdays would be able to participate with their classmates, especially in the 9th grade.

playwithyourgrade · Post by **playwithyourgrade** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:31 pm

If you would like to join other members of MH, presenting an idea of a improved age classification please send a email to

playwithyourgrade@yahoo.com

This groups goal is to enhance MN community hockey by improving the current age classification. This is not a birth year idea. But asking MH for consideration to improve the current one they have in place, of which the goal is to allow all youth to play with their peers.

Indians forever · Post by **Indians forever** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:08 pm

Iceman33 wrote:It's seems like a simple solution. I have always thought the birth year thing is kind of an odd way to do it. Since 10, 11, 12 graders play high school. Why wouldn't you just make it a grade thing through the whole process. It seems pretty simple....
4th-5th graders - Squirts
6th-7th graders - Peewees
8th-9th graders - Bantams
10, 11th, 12th - High School

Wasn't this how it was Ice ages ago, or am I missing something?

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:27 pm

Iceman33 wrote:It's seems like a simple solution. I have always thought the birth year thing is kind of an odd way to do it. Since 10, 11, 12 graders play high school. Why wouldn't you just make it a grade thing through the whole process. It seems pretty simple....
4th-5th graders - Squirts
6th-7th graders - Peewees
8th-9th graders - Bantams
10, 11th, 12th - High School

You can't go strictly on grade...what about the kid who get's held back in the 5th grade..should he get an extra year of Squirts out of it?

Simple solution: change the birth date cut-off from 6/30-7/1 to 8/31-9/1. Most kids born 8/31 or before to the previous 9/1 will be in the same grade...more so than the current cut-off date, anyways.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:39 pm

Iceman33 wrote:It's seems like a simple solution. I have always thought the birth year thing is kind of an odd way to do it. Since 10, 11, 12 graders play high school. Why wouldn't you just make it a grade thing through the whole process. It seems pretty simple....
4th-5th graders - Squirts
6th-7th graders - Peewees
8th-9th graders - Bantams
10, 11th, 12th - High School

Do you know how many 5th graders in my granddaughters class are playing peewee hockey?
(rhetorical, don't answer)

Playing by grade is not an easy answer.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:48 pm

muckandgrind wrote:
Iceman33 wrote:It's seems like a simple solution. I have always thought the birth year thing is kind of an odd way to do it. Since 10, 11, 12 graders play high school. Why wouldn't you just make it a grade thing through the whole process. It seems pretty simple....
4th-5th graders - Squirts
6th-7th graders - Peewees
8th-9th graders - Bantams
10, 11th, 12th - High School
You can't go strictly on grade...what about the kid who get's held back in the 5th grade..should he get an extra year of Squirts out of it?

Simple solution: change the birth date cut-off from 6/30-7/1 to 8/31-9/1. Most kids born 8/31 or before to the previous 9/1 will be in the same grade...more so than the current cut-off date, anyways.

This is what some of us wanted a few years ago when USA Hockey went from June 1 to birth year.
Enough board members saw this a s a problem and some still feel that way for some reason and aare exporing other possibilities (which complicates things).

Some of us want the Sept 1 (as used by the schools) and then if you hold your child back they play with a different set of school kids sometimes because of a family choice.

Sounds simple, but does not seem to be.
I thought it would be done this way a year ago, but was pushed to discernment.

DMom · Post by **DMom** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:50 pm

elliott70 wrote:
Iceman33 wrote:It's seems like a simple solution. I have always thought the birth year thing is kind of an odd way to do it. Since 10, 11, 12 graders play high school. Why wouldn't you just make it a grade thing through the whole process. It seems pretty simple....
4th-5th graders - Squirts
6th-7th graders - Peewees
8th-9th graders - Bantams
10, 11th, 12th - High School
Do you know how many 5th graders in my granddaughters class are playing peewee hockey?
(rhetorical, don't answer)

Playing by grade is not an easy answer.

My 5th grader has a classmate who is a peewee.

Our association has always let kids who are in the above grades move up, but didn't let them try out until this year. Only a few chose to do it because there aren't more than a handful in our association. Also, they agree that they will only play two years at each level. Once the commitment is made to play with their grade, they have to follow it through.

We had an August birthday 4th grader tryout for A/B and make a team. We had a boy one week older, but a 3rd grader, spend the year at mites. To some parents this would not seem fair, but if the argument is that it is a social issue, that they are better off with their peers, which I have witnessed to be true, than the 3rd grader is also better off with their peers at mites, even with skills being equal.

DMom · Post by **DMom** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:52 pm

One question, the 5th grade peewees, what do they do in 9th grade if they can't make the JV? ....Jr. Gold

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:44 pm

DMom wrote:One question, the 5th grade peewees, what do they do in 9th grade if they can't make the JV? ....Jr. Gold

In D16 we put 'em in the woods to cut timber or in the fields to haul sugar beets.

Iceman33 · Post by **Iceman33** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:23 pm

Some of you say that, it can't be done by grades and you use 5th graders playing Peewees as a reason. There is always going to be certain things that seem unfair whether you go grade or cut-off. My reason is every other sport involved with school has it by grades. Basketball, Football, you name it. I understand the AAA and Summer hockey by birthyear. But grades will work for Association, we all know if it was up to the schools this is how it would be. Why to hockey board members make it more difficult than that? Like I said when he gets to high school he has to go by his grade, why not just have them grow up playing with the kids he is going to play with in high school. There is no cut-off date come Varsity hockey, it needs to be the same all the way up.

MoveYourFeet · Post by **MoveYourFeet** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:30 pm

Here it is, straight from USA Hockey (website)

Registration Season Date Change

At the January, 2009 Winter Meeting, the USA Hockey Board of Directors reviewed the recommendation of the District Registrars to change the USA Hockey registration season to May 1 through April 30. This recommendation was approved by the Board of Directors and will take effect for the 2009-10 season.

Those are the new dates because most club teams (outside MN) have their tryouts May 1 or after for the upcoming year.

The question is....Do all districts have to comply with this rule or can they augment and change or keep current registat dates in place? If anyone knows, please pass on what you know.

I know Minnesota Hockey does not meet until April 15 I believe but do not know if this is on the agenda for update and or change.

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:31 pm

Iceman33 wrote:Some of you say that, it can't be done by grades and you use 5th graders playing Peewees as a reason. There is always going to be certain things that seem unfair whether you go grade or cut-off. My reason is every other sport involved with school has it by grades. Basketball, Football, you name it. I understand the AAA and Summer hockey by birthyear. But grades will work for Association, we all know if it was up to the schools this is how it would be. Why to hockey board members make it more difficult than that? Like I said when he gets to high school he has to go by his grade, why not just have them grow up playing with the kids he is going to play with in high school. There is no cut-off date come Varsity hockey, it needs to be the same all the way up.

You didn't answer my question...what about the kid who gets held back a year in school?....does he get to play another year at the same level as well instead of moving up to play the level the kids his same age have to? How about the whiz kid who jump a year in a school? Is he forced to play up? What if he isn't physically capable to make that jump on in level?

Simply saying that kids should play with kids in the same grade doesn't appropriately deal with the scenarios I outlined in the paragraph above. For those reasons, grades won't work, it has to be age.

If you do the age cutoff at 8/31 then, for the most part, you will get kids playing with other kids that are in the same grade AND you don't have to deal with the scenarios we are talking about.

DMom · Post by **DMom** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:58 pm

MoveYourFeet wrote:Here it is, straight from USA Hockey (website)

Registration Season Date Change

At the January, 2009 Winter Meeting, the USA Hockey Board of Directors reviewed the recommendation of the District Registrars to change the USA Hockey registration season to May 1 through April 30. This recommendation was approved by the Board of Directors and will take effect for the 2009-10 season.

Those are the new dates because most club teams (outside MN) have their tryouts May 1 or after for the upcoming year.

The question is....Do all districts have to comply with this rule or can they augment and change or keep current registat dates in place? If anyone knows, please pass on what you know.

I know Minnesota Hockey does not meet until April 15 I believe but do not know if this is on the agenda for update and or change.

That doesn't have anything to do with the age limits. That refers to the insurance year for registration, basically, or your benefits as 'registered' USA hockey member.

Baseball doesn't do it by grade if you are with Gopher State. They use April 30th as a cutoff. (I don't know about other leagues) For baseball my 5th grader plays with the peewee, for hockey they split.

philip18 · Post by **philip18** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:00 pm

Read the book "Outliers" to learn what really matters and what needs to be done to make the best group of players if we in MN really want to be smart about this.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:02 pm

Iceman33 wrote:Some of you say that, it can't be done by grades and you use 5th graders playing Peewees as a reason. There is always going to be certain things that seem unfair whether you go grade or cut-off. My reason is every other sport involved with school has it by grades. Basketball, Football, you name it. I understand the AAA and Summer hockey by birthyear. But grades will work for Association, we all know if it was up to the schools this is how it would be. Why to hockey board members make it more difficult than that? Like I said when he gets to high school he has to go by his grade, why not just have them grow up playing with the kids he is going to play with in high school. There is no cut-off date come Varsity hockey, it needs to be the same all the way up.

Non-school sports teams:
Baseball uses age.
Basketall usse age.
Football uses weight.
Soccer uses age.

You better check the HS rules on the age cut-off if you think it does not exist.

Grades do not work for the obvious reason.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:10 pm

philip18 wrote:Read the book "Outliers" to learn what really matters and what needs to be done to make the best group of players if we in MN really want to be smart about this.

Off topic, but
Do you think the premise in 'Ouliers' that these VERY successful people are this way for some 'reason' or is it possible because they were 'at the right place at the right time' (with of course the right stuff).
Wait till I finish it then we can start a new forum for discussion of this stuff (similar to the cafe).

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:12 pm

MoveYourFeet wrote:Here it is, straight from USA Hockey (website)

Registration Season Date Change

At the January, 2009 Winter Meeting, the USA Hockey Board of Directors reviewed the recommendation of the District Registrars to change the USA Hockey registration season to May 1 through April 30. This recommendation was approved by the Board of Directors and will take effect for the 2009-10 season.

Those are the new dates because most club teams (outside MN) have their tryouts May 1 or after for the upcoming year.

The question is....Do all districts have to comply with this rule or can they augment and change or keep current registat dates in place? If anyone knows, please pass on what you know.

I know Minnesota Hockey does not meet until April 15 I believe but do not know if this is on the agenda for update and or change.

This is not the 'age grouping' it is for registration.
The season ran from Sept 1 to Aug 31 in the past - now it starts April 1.
The money (may) come in sooner for USA Hockey.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:14 pm

DMom wrote:
MoveYourFeet wrote:Here it is, straight from USA Hockey (website)

Registration Season Date Change

At the January, 2009 Winter Meeting, the USA Hockey Board of Directors reviewed the recommendation of the District Registrars to change the USA Hockey registration season to May 1 through April 30. This recommendation was approved by the Board of Directors and will take effect for the 2009-10 season.

Those are the new dates because most club teams (outside MN) have their tryouts May 1 or after for the upcoming year.

The question is....Do all districts have to comply with this rule or can they augment and change or keep current registat dates in place? If anyone knows, please pass on what you know.

I know Minnesota Hockey does not meet until April 15 I believe but do not know if this is on the agenda for update and or change.
That doesn't have anything to do with the age limits. That refers to the insurance year for registration, basically, or your benefits as 'registered' USA hockey member.

Baseball doesn't do it by grade if you are with Gopher State. They use April 30th as a cutoff. (I don't know about other leagues) For baseball my 5th grader plays with the peewee, for hockey they split.

The wizard of Forest Lake comes through again.

iwearmysunglassesatnight · Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:33 pm

You didn't answer my question...what about the kid who gets held back a year in school?....does he get to play another year at the same level as well instead of moving up to play the level the kids his same age have to? How about the whiz kid who jump a year in a school? Is he forced to play up? What if he isn't physically capable to make that jump on in level?

Simply saying that kids should play with kids in the same grade doesn't appropriately deal with the scenarios I outlined in the paragraph above. For those reasons, grades won't work, it has to be age.

If you do the age cutoff at 8/31 then, for the most part, you will get kids playing with other kids that are in the same grade AND you don't have to deal with the scenarios we are talking about.[/quote]

Muck

How does baseball / football / hoops handle it? MN Hockey has in their reasoning "following normal progress in school" .. this is part of how they looked to choose a date where kids will play with their peers. Is it possible they could use from the time you enter kindergarten? I may not be correct on this, but I believe there is less kids failing a grade nowadays. And ones that due are probably not playing travelling hockey.

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