Why no 7th place game?

City of Compton · Post by **City of Compton** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:11 am

Why do they not have a 7th place game? Any reason they let the bottom dwellers just fall off the map? $? Don't want one team to go down 0-3, so they make two go down 0-2 together, is that it?

I always thought being able to place 1st-8th of the state tourney wouldn't be such a bad idea, rather than 1-6 and leave the last two a mystery.

xavieriser · Post by **xavieriser** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:11 pm

City of Compton wrote:Why do they not have a 7th place game? Any reason they let the bottom dwellers just fall off the map? $? Don't want one team to go down 0-3, so they make two go down 0-2 together, is that it?

I always thought being able to place 1st-8th of the state tourney wouldn't be such a bad idea, rather than 1-6 and leave the last two a mystery.

Because it's called being 2 and out.

bigeater3 · Post by **bigeater3** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:40 pm

one... two... bar...b...que... sounds so good

iceboss10 · Post by **iceboss10** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:50 pm

If I remember correctly, and this is my 13th straight year of doing radio from the tournament, it got to the point where the 7th place game turned into a nightmare for the MSHSL and the on-ice officials...remember, for some loose-cannon senior with no penalty to pay since their hockey career was coming to an end, this game sometimes (not always, but sometimes) turned into an episode of "Slap Shot". I believe they pulled the plug on this with the move out of the old Civic Center. I have a vague memory of looking at a game summary sheet that the MSHSL officials put out that was pretty lengthy due to the number of fights and other sorts of misconduct.

wbmd · Post by **wbmd** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:55 pm

iceboss10 wrote:If I remember correctly, and this is my 13th straight year of doing radio from the tournament, it got to the point where the 7th place game turned into a nightmare for the MSHSL and the on-ice officials...remember, for some loose-cannon senior with no penalty to pay since their hockey career was coming to an end, this game sometimes (not always, but sometimes) turned into an episode of "Slap Shot". I believe they pulled the plug on this with the move out of the old Civic Center. I have a vague memory of looking at a game summary sheet that the MSHSL officials put out that was pretty lengthy due to the number of fights and other sorts of misconduct.

I don't ever recall a 7th place game taking place. Come to think of it, I'm positive that there never has been a 7th place game in the State Tournament - any State Tournaments in Minnesota for that matter.

Check the Yearbook and Record Book in this MSHSL site for proof.

http://mshsl.org/mshsl/activitypage.asp?actnum=410

iceboss10 · Post by **iceboss10** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:12 pm

Hmmm. I will stand corrected on this to a point. So I went down and spoke with one of the MSHSL Media Stewards, who sent me to the press box announcer, who has been doing this since Hobey Baker was a pup. He also recalls it, but believes that it was done away with back in the 60's.

notyouraveragejoe · Post by **notyouraveragejoe** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:45 pm

I totally agree, there are those hateful kids that will take it out on others just because they are done, I have had it done to me at the end of tourneys, tight games, other times. Just cheap shotting everyone and everything.

pondhockeyplayer7 · Post by **pondhockeyplayer7** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:59 pm

wbmd wrote:
iceboss10 wrote:If I remember correctly, and this is my 13th straight year of doing radio from the tournament, it got to the point where the 7th place game turned into a nightmare for the MSHSL and the on-ice officials...remember, for some loose-cannon senior with no penalty to pay since their hockey career was coming to an end, this game sometimes (not always, but sometimes) turned into an episode of "Slap Shot". I believe they pulled the plug on this with the move out of the old Civic Center. I have a vague memory of looking at a game summary sheet that the MSHSL officials put out that was pretty lengthy due to the number of fights and other sorts of misconduct.
I don't ever recall a 7th place game taking place. Come to think of it, I'm positive that there never has been a 7th place game in the State Tournament - any State Tournaments in Minnesota for that matter.

Check the Yearbook and Record Book in this MSHSL site for proof.

http://mshsl.org/mshsl/activitypage.asp?actnum=410

Yea that link shows no proof

RBKhockey77 · Post by **RBKhockey77** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:59 pm

All of your points make sense, but think about this. People barely show up to watch the 3rd place game, who would go to watch the 7th place game? I would bet that the players parents wouldn't even want to go watch the 7th place game.

wbmd · Post by **wbmd** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:05 pm

pondhockeyplayer7 wrote:
wbmd wrote:
iceboss10 wrote:If I remember correctly, and this is my 13th straight year of doing radio from the tournament, it got to the point where the 7th place game turned into a nightmare for the MSHSL and the on-ice officials...remember, for some loose-cannon senior with no penalty to pay since their hockey career was coming to an end, this game sometimes (not always, but sometimes) turned into an episode of "Slap Shot". I believe they pulled the plug on this with the move out of the old Civic Center. I have a vague memory of looking at a game summary sheet that the MSHSL officials put out that was pretty lengthy due to the number of fights and other sorts of misconduct.
I don't ever recall a 7th place game taking place. Come to think of it, I'm positive that there never has been a 7th place game in the State Tournament - any State Tournaments in Minnesota for that matter.

Check the Yearbook and Record Book in this MSHSL site for proof.

http://mshsl.org/mshsl/activitypage.asp?actnum=410
Yea that link shows no proof

Do you see any results for 7th place?

I didn't think so.

EREmpireStrikesBack · Post by **EREmpireStrikesBack** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:35 am

They don't want Duluth East to have to pay for another night in the hotel.

pondhockeyplayer7 · Post by **pondhockeyplayer7** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:12 am

wbmd wrote:
pondhockeyplayer7 wrote:
wbmd wrote: I don't ever recall a 7th place game taking place. Come to think of it, I'm positive that there never has been a 7th place game in the State Tournament - any State Tournaments in Minnesota for that matter.

Check the Yearbook and Record Book in this MSHSL site for proof.

http://mshsl.org/mshsl/activitypage.asp?actnum=410
Yea that link shows no proof
Do you see any results for 7th place?

I didn't think so.

wellllllll it only shows results for the past few years not every year soooooooo, still doesnt prove it

Post by **east hockey** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:28 am

pondhockeyplayer7 wrote:
wbmd wrote:
pondhockeyplayer7 wrote: Yea that link shows no proof
Do you see any results for 7th place?

I didn't think so.
wellllllll it only shows results for the past few years not every year soooooooo, still doesnt prove it

The book published by Lets Play Hockey shows every game since the tournament started in 1945. That proves it.

Lee

Indians forever · Post by **Indians forever** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:32 am

EREmpireStrikesBack wrote:They don't want Duluth East to have to pay for another night in the hotel.

Post by **east hockey** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:38 am

EREmpireStrikesBack wrote:They don't want Duluth East to have to pay for another night in the hotel.

Easier for the Elks. All they had to do was turn on the TV.

Lee

Stealth · Post by **Stealth** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:02 am

east hockey wrote:
The book published by Lets Play Hockey shows every game since the tournament started in 1945. That proves it.

Lee

Look at the latest issue March 11th 2009 of “Let’s Play Hockey” front page?
In the green box for Breaking down the 2009 state tournament field .
In Class A section column for “Best Finish (year)”.
You will see Virginia/Mt Iron-Buhl won 7th place?

Bigcat99 · Post by **Bigcat99** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:11 am

Stealth wrote:
east hockey wrote:
The book published by Lets Play Hockey shows every game since the tournament started in 1945. That proves it.

Lee

Look at the latest issue March 11th 2009 of “Let’s Play Hockey” front page?
In the green box for Breaking down the 2009 state tournament field .
In Class A section column for “Best Finish (year)”.
You will see Virginia/Mt Iron-Buhl won 7th place?

since it's sunday morning and I'm feeling a little to lazy to do some of my own DD, which year Stealth???

Stealth · Post by **Stealth** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:21 am

Bigcat99 wrote:
Stealth wrote:
east hockey wrote:
The book published by Lets Play Hockey shows every game since the tournament started in 1945. That proves it.

Lee

Look at the latest issue March 11th 2009 of “Let’s Play Hockey” front page?
In the green box for Breaking down the 2009 state tournament field .
In Class A section column for “Best Finish (year)”.
You will see Virginia/Mt Iron-Buhl won 7th place?
since it's sunday morning and I'm feeling a little to lazy to do some of my own DD, which year Stealth???

It states Virginia took 7th in 2005. Where they a participant that year?

wbmd · Post by **wbmd** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:40 am

pondhockeyplayer7 wrote:
wbmd wrote:
pondhockeyplayer7 wrote: Yea that link shows no proof
Do you see any results for 7th place?

I didn't think so.
wellllllll it only shows results for the past few years not every year soooooooo, still doesnt prove it

Go to page 5 & 6 and you will see that it shows ALL of the results from every State Tournament. (It's in the link under Yearbook and Record Book)

goldfish01153 · Post by **goldfish01153** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:12 pm

it doesn't matter century beat duluth east head to head so they take home the 7th place trophy that doesn't exist... CONGRATS CENTURY!!!!!

Post by **east hockey** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:20 pm

Stealth wrote:
east hockey wrote:
The book published by Lets Play Hockey shows every game since the tournament started in 1945. That proves it.

Lee

Look at the latest issue March 11th 2009 of “Let’s Play Hockey” front page?
In the green box for Breaking down the 2009 state tournament field .
In Class A section column for “Best Finish (year)”.
You will see Virginia/Mt Iron-Buhl won 7th place?

They were probably being kind to Virginia by not calling their Best Finish an eighth place finish.

Lee

EHSHack · Post by **EHSHack** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:46 pm

goldfish01153 wrote:it doesn't matter century beat duluth east head to head so they take home the 7th place trophy that doesn't exist... CONGRATS CENTURY!!!!!

You can have 7th, we beat Morrhead 4-0 head to head so we will take 2nd place.

Domination088 · Post by **Domination088** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:29 pm

Stealth wrote:
Bigcat99 wrote:
Stealth wrote:
Look at the latest issue March 11th 2009 of “Let’s Play Hockey” front page?
In the green box for Breaking down the 2009 state tournament field .
In Class A section column for “Best Finish (year)”.
You will see Virginia/Mt Iron-Buhl won 7th place?
since it's sunday morning and I'm feeling a little to lazy to do some of my own DD, which year Stealth???
It states Virginia took 7th in 2005. Where they a participant that year?

I would imagine that it is a tie for 7th seeing as no 7th place game is played, therefore the 2 teams that go 2 and out at the tourney tie for 7th place.

Lucia4President · Post by **Lucia4President** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:40 pm

Domination088 wrote:
Stealth wrote:
Bigcat99 wrote: since it's sunday morning and I'm feeling a little to lazy to do some of my own DD, which year Stealth???
It states Virginia took 7th in 2005. Where they a participant that year?

I would imagine that it is a tie for 7th seeing as no 7th place game is played, therefore the 2 teams that go 2 and out at the tourney tie for 7th place.

You are correct.

mnwild09 · Post by **mnwild09** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:43 pm

I'm sure it's a combination of all of these factors. Money is an issue, attendance, and attitudes of the players. Also, there's really no point to it. I mean, how much better will a team feel knowing that they got 7/8 instead of 8/8. It really doesn't sound any better. I do think the tourney brackets are kind of jokes though. Yeah one team always finishes 3-0, and two teams finish 0-2, but 3 teams finish 2-1, so it's pretty hard to rank the teams based on just their one streak of games played through the tourney. I mean, for instance:

Little Falls finished 2-1, beating Cathedral and Virginia, only losing to the eventual champion, Breck.

Warroad finished 2-1, beating Cathedral and Mahtomedi, only losing to the eventual champion Breck.

Both of these teams beat teams that went 0-2 in the tourney (Maht and Virginia) and the other win was against the same team. The only loss was to the champion of single A class. Can we really crown Warroad over Little Falls just because they won two games in a row? I'm not saying Little Falls deserves second, but it's hard to say that these teams aren't nearly identical in the eyes of records and teams beaten.

Similarly, a third team, Rochester Lourdes, finished 2-1 in the tourney as well. They lost their first game to (you guessed it) eventual champion Breck, then beat Virginia (same as LF) and Hutchinson (who lost to eventual runner up - Warroad). Again, the schedule is very similar. With these three teams all at 2-1 shouldn't there be some kind of conclusive actual 2nd place determining game?

This is why 7th place can't actually be figured out. If a 7th place game were to be played, yes we would find out EIGHTH place because that team is 0-3, but the "seventh" place team you've crowned is really now tied with two other teams at a 1-2 record. So you have one team at 3-0, 3 teams at 2-1, 3 teams at 1-2, and one team at 0-3. Yes 1st and 8th are essentially decided, but theres a 3 way tie for both 2nd place (or 4th depending how you look at it) as well as a 3 way tie for 5th (or 7th, depending). The only way to solve this issue is basically a round robin, and we all know that won't happen. It would draw the state tourney out to being 2 weeks long to give everyone enough rest.

7th place just isn't worth all that trouble in my opinion.

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