BRECK CLASS A CHAMPIONS

[WayOutWest]

.... and with their own class, well, a private would win the state tourney 10/10 years, ....

Sure, and a public would win Class A 10/10 years.
And a public would win Class AA 10/10 years.
The only difference is, every team in each class would be forming teams via the same rules.
What's not to understand?

Also, I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation as to why the private situation is any different from the public schools that have more resources at their disposal. All I'm getting is this vague, "well, they recruit," without any description of what this recruiting is like and why specifically this sort of case is bad.

You've been given reasons. You merely refuse to acknowledge them.
ANY public school would struggle to match the educational benefits that most the big name hockey privates can provide. That's a tremendous attraction to parents and students alike. And if a great hockey talent can get a great break on tuition, well that is a perk that many families can't pass up.
It's ONLY a "bad" thing on the rink, where it creates an uneven playing field. Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

[WayOutWest]

I'm thinking of a school. By any measure, it has been the most successful single-A program since we went to 2 classes. Its track record on the state level was decent, but not all that impressive prior to the 2-class split. This program is noted for having players come from incredibly far places to play hockey for it. It has its own new, gorgeous facility that it does not have to share with any other high school. It's had some pretty good coaches come through there too.

1. What is this school?
2. Is there anything wrong with the way this school has operated its hockey program?

Warroad?

Yep.
Any of those criticizing the current system care to tackle #2?

Was this school offering a top notch private school education, at discounted fees for hockey talent?

Oh, and can we wait on the "over-matched" assessment until you BEGIN offering some kind of "competition?"

[WayOutWest]

That debate would end up at the following question: Which is more important, competitive balance or allowing individuals to go to the school and/or play for the hockey program that they want to?

You can easily have both. Why don't you see that?

[DotaDangler]

That debate would end up at the following question: Which is more important, competitive balance or allowing individuals to go to the school and/or play for the hockey program that they want to?

You can easily have both. Why don't you see that?

So your suggesting three classes? The MSHL doesn't have enough money for the two we already have. I just don't think its practical.

[karl(east)]

That debate would end up at the following question: Which is more important, competitive balance or allowing individuals to go to the school and/or play for the hockey program that they want to?

You can easily have both. Why don't you see that?

The quote you pulled out here has nothing to do with your private-school class idea. It was in response to someone else, who was suggesting something totally different. When viewed in the proper context, it still holds.

[karl(east)]

I'm thinking of a school. By any measure, it has been the most successful single-A program since we went to 2 classes. Its track record on the state level was decent, but not all that impressive prior to the 2-class split. This program is noted for having players come from incredibly far places to play hockey for it. It has its own new, gorgeous facility that it does not have to share with any other high school. It's had some pretty good coaches come through there too.

1. What is this school?
2. Is there anything wrong with the way this school has operated its hockey program?

Warroad?

Yep.
Any of those criticizing the current system care to tackle #2?

Was this school offering a top notch private school education, at discounted fees for hockey talent?

Oh, and can we wait on the "over-matched" assessment until you BEGIN offering some kind of "competition?"

Oh my. Do you really want to get into a debate about educational quality? Ranking educational quality is an incredibly subjective thing, and depends a lot on what one is looking for. It would be VERY presumptuous of the MSHSL (or anyone) to suggest that one type of school is better than another and deserve special classification as such.

Also (as I begin to sound like a broken record), even if we buy into some sort of ranking system, there's quite the range of educational qualities within the public school system, too. Comparing an Edina to an inner-city public is going to create huge gaps in education level, and both of those are free and very possible options under open enrollment.

I went to Duluth East. A lot of people open enroll into East for reasons that have nothing to do with sports, from places as far away as Barnum.
While it may be true that, buying into some sort of ranking system, private schools will generally come out on top, I doubt they always will. I was given a choice between East and Marshall, where I probably could have gotten a decent financial aid package. Athletics played no role in my decision. I couldn't be happier with what I got out of East, and how it prepared me for the next level.

[Goldy Gopher]

.... and with their own class, well, a private would win the state tourney 10/10 years, ....

Sure, and a public would win Class A 10/10 years.
And a public would win Class AA 10/10 years.
The only difference is, every team in each class would be forming teams via the same rules.
What's not to understand?

Also, I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation as to why the private situation is any different from the public schools that have more resources at their disposal. All I'm getting is this vague, "well, they recruit," without any description of what this recruiting is like and why specifically this sort of case is bad.

You've been given reasons. You merely refuse to acknowledge them.
ANY public school would struggle to match the educational benefits that most the big name hockey privates can provide. That's a tremendous attraction to parents and students alike. And if a great hockey talent can get a great break on tuition, well that is a perk that many families can't pass up.
It's ONLY a "bad" thing on the rink, where it creates an uneven playing field. Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

I'm still waiting for a specific example of a coach going into a public school feeder, going up to a prospective athlete, and saying come attend our school and we'll give you a tuition break. When you give me one I will "acknowledge it."

[healthy scratch]

Here's my one problem with private schools playing in Class A.

Poor little Becker/Big Lake, Monticello/Annadale/Maple Lake and River Lakes (Rocori/Paynesville/New London/St.Johns Prep/Albany/Melrose) all are forced to play in Class AA because when you combine the TOTAL enrollment of all of the schools they draw players from, their enrollment is too large to play Class A.
This is true even if you have one kid from New London and one from Prep.
Because of this, the two worst teams of the three have a play in game for Sections every year. The winner moves on to play either Moorhead or Roseau. MAML lost to Moorhead a few years ago in the infamous 25-0 game.

If you were to combine the enrollment of all of the host schools that Breck pulled hockey players from, that mythical High Schools enrollment would be over 23,000 kids.
I find it hard to feel sorry for the kid who says the "sadly my class only has 91 kids in it".
Kid you don't have 91 kids; you have 6,000 (to draw from).

Maybe it could be like slow pitch softball, where if you win the Class D state tournament; you have to move up to C the next year.

[K Dope]

.... and with their own class, well, a private would win the state tourney 10/10 years, ....

Sure, and a public would win Class A 10/10 years.
And a public would win Class AA 10/10 years.
The only difference is, every team in each class would be forming teams via the same rules.
What's not to understand?

Also, I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation as to why the private situation is any different from the public schools that have more resources at their disposal. All I'm getting is this vague, "well, they recruit," without any description of what this recruiting is like and why specifically this sort of case is bad.

You've been given reasons. You merely refuse to acknowledge them.
ANY public school would struggle to match the educational benefits that most the big name hockey privates can provide. That's a tremendous attraction to parents and students alike. And if a great hockey talent can get a great break on tuition, well that is a perk that many families can't pass up.
It's ONLY a "bad" thing on the rink, where it creates an uneven playing field. Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

I'm still waiting for a specific example of a coach going into a public school feeder, going up to a prospective athlete, and saying come attend our school and we'll give you a tuition break. When you give me one I will "acknowledge it."

Did Goldy Gopher pay all that money for private school and then go to the U? What a waste of a great private high school education!

Breck (and others) needs to play AA. For all those Breck lovers who think they would beat EP in the other thread, I say why stop there, go after WCHA Champ UND, Final Five Champ UMD or #1 seed Denver - why not the Wild?



Congrats on the State Championship but no one else is "buying" it.

[DotaDangler]

Here's my one problem with private schools playing in Class A.

Poor little Becker/Big Lake, Monticello/Annadale/Maple Lake and River Lakes (Rocori/Paynesville/New London/St.Johns Prep/Albany/Melrose) all are forced to play in Class AA because when you combine the TOTAL enrollment of all of the schools they draw players from, their enrollment is too large to play Class A.
This is true even if you have one kid from New London and one from Prep.
Because of this, the two worst teams of the three have a play in game for Sections every year. The winner moves on to play either Moorhead or Roseau. MAML lost to Moorhead a few years ago in the infamous 25-0 game.

If you were to combine the enrollment of all of the host schools that Breck pulled hockey players from, that mythical High Schools enrollment would be over 23,000 kids.
I find it hard to feel sorry for the kid who says the "sadly my class only has 91 kids in it".
Kid you don't have 91 kids; you have 6,000 (to draw from).

Maybe it could be like slow pitch softball, where if you win the Class D state tournament; you have to move up to C the next year.

I see your point, but Breck cant have kids who are attending other highschools play hockey for them. Are you going to count the worlds population because they have had some exchange students? Also, many students have gone to Breck k-12, so they cant be counted for another school. They are playing where the MSHl has assigned them, complain to them if you want something changed.

[MNHockeyFan]

Poor little Becker/Big Lake, Monticello/Annadale/Maple Lake and River Lakes (Rocori/Paynesville/New London/St.Johns Prep/Albany/Melrose) all are forced to play in Class AA because when you combine the TOTAL enrollment of all of the schools they draw players from, their enrollment is too large to play Class A.

It's their decision to combine into a co-op team and play in AA. Any one of these schools could field their own team and play in A, like many other schools with small enrollments do, or maybe join forces with just one other small school and still play in A.

[WayOutWest]

Oh my. Do you really want to get into a debate about educational quality? Ranking educational quality is an incredibly subjective thing, and depends a lot on what one is looking for. It would be VERY presumptuous of the MSHSL (or anyone) to suggest that one type of school is better than another and deserve special classification as such.

A "special classification" already exists. They call them "private" schools.
I somewhat agree on the subjectivity of educational quality. It is disingenuous to attempt to imply that public and private schools, on the norm, are equivalent, however. Folks don't pay their tax dollars which are targeted for their local public school system, AND private school tuition payments for trivial reasons. Quite obviously, a fair percentage of folks see quite a benefit.
That being said, the MSHSL (or anyone else) does not have to "rank" schools at all. They merely need to acknowledge that, from a sports perspective, publics and privates play by a different set of rules for forming teams. That is enough to justify a different class.

[WayOutWest]

I'm still waiting for a specific example of a coach going into a public school feeder, going up to a prospective athlete, and saying come attend our school and we'll give you a tuition break. When you give me one I will "acknowledge it."

Your life is filled with "bliss", isn't it Goldy?
Did you actually go to the U of M? Or do you just like the Gopher?

[Goldy Gopher]

Sure, and a public would win Class A 10/10 years.
And a public would win Class AA 10/10 years.
The only difference is, every team in each class would be forming teams via the same rules.
What's not to understand?
You've been given reasons. You merely refuse to acknowledge them.
ANY public school would struggle to match the educational benefits that most the big name hockey privates can provide. That's a tremendous attraction to parents and students alike. And if a great hockey talent can get a great break on tuition, well that is a perk that many families can't pass up.
It's ONLY a "bad" thing on the rink, where it creates an uneven playing field. Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

I'm still waiting for a specific example of a coach going into a public school feeder, going up to a prospective athlete, and saying come attend our school and we'll give you a tuition break. When you give me one I will "acknowledge it."

Did Goldy Gopher pay all that money for private school and then go to the U? What a waste of a great private high school education!

Breck (and others) needs to play AA. For all those Breck lovers who think they would beat EP in the other thread, I say why stop there, go after WCHA Champ UND, Final Five Champ UMD or #1 seed Denver - why not the Wild?



Congrats on the State Championship but no one else is "buying" it.

Never stepped foot in a private school in my life.

[bluelineenvy]

.... and with their own class, well, a private would win the state tourney 10/10 years, ....

Sure, and a public would win Class A 10/10 years.And a public would win Class AA 10/10 years.The only difference is, every team in each class would be forming teams via the same rules.What's not to understand?

Also, I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation as to why the private situation is any different from the public schools that have more resources at their disposal. All I'm getting is this vague, "well, they recruit," without any description of what this recruiting is like and why specifically this sort of case is bad.

You've been given reasons. You merely refuse to acknowledge them.ANY public school would struggle to match the educational benefits that most the big name hockey privates can provide.  That's a tremendous attraction to parents and students alike. And if a great hockey talent can get a great break on tuition, well that is a perk that many families can't pass up. It's ONLY a "bad" thing on the rink, where it creates an uneven playing field. Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

I'm still waiting for a specific example of a coach going into a public school feeder, going up to a prospective athlete, and saying come attend our school and we'll give you a tuition break. When you give me one I will "acknowledge it."

Karl (East) Hit it right on the money.  Warroad isn't any different than the private schools.  They actually may be worse.  Did you see the Warroad "AD" during the tournament on T.V. about how much college schloarship money those kids are given?  WOW...

Goldy - Forgive me if you stated something else in previous pages, but your never going to get an example and we all know it. Why, because the coaches are not the ones doing the recruiting. It's parents, friends, family, past students and the tournament itself. The tourney helps the privates recruit through the great T.V. exposure. I know they all get time, it just benefits certain schools more than others. The privates keep on winning and play more games at the X and therefore are on T.V. more. Who doesn't dream of having his boy hold up the state trophy?

[Goldy Gopher]

I'm still waiting for a specific example of a coach going into a public school feeder, going up to a prospective athlete, and saying come attend our school and we'll give you a tuition break. When you give me one I will "acknowledge it."

Your life is filled with "bliss", isn't it Goldy?
Did you actually go to the U of M? Or do you just like the Gopher?

Still waiting on that example

[Goldy Gopher]

Sure, and a public would win Class A 10/10 years.And a public would win Class AA 10/10 years.The only difference is, every team in each class would be forming teams via the same rules.What's not to understand? You've been given reasons. You merely refuse to acknowledge them.ANY public school would struggle to match the educational benefits that most the big name hockey privates can provide.  That's a tremendous attraction to parents and students alike. And if a great hockey talent can get a great break on tuition, well that is a perk that many families can't pass up. It's ONLY a "bad" thing on the rink, where it creates an uneven playing field. Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

I'm still waiting for a specific example of a coach going into a public school feeder, going up to a prospective athlete, and saying come attend our school and we'll give you a tuition break. When you give me one I will "acknowledge it."

Karl (East) Hit it right on the money.  Warroad isn't any different than the private schools.  They actually may be worse.  Did you see the Warroad "AD" during the tournament on T.V. about how much college schloarship money those kids are given?  WOW...

Goldy - Forgive me if you stated something else in previous pages, but your never going to get an example and we all know it. Why, because the coaches are not the ones doing the recruiting. It's parents, friends, family, past students and the tournament itself. The tourney helps the privates recruit through the great T.V. exposure. I know they all get time, it just benefits certain schools more than others. The privates keep on winning and play more games at the X and therefore are on T.V. more. Who doesn't dream of having his boy hold up the state trophy?

The teams that got the most TV exposure this year are both public.

If the coaches aren't doing the recruiting then there is absolutely nothing even close to wrong going on. Thanks for making my argument for me.

[WayOutWest]

Goldy - Forgive me if you stated something else in previous pages, but your never going to get an example and we all know it. Why, because the coaches are not the ones doing the recruiting. It's parents, friends, family, past students and the tournament itself. The tourney helps the privates recruit through the great T.V. exposure. I know they all get time, it just benefits certain schools more than others. The privates keep on winning and play more games at the X and therefore are on T.V. more. Who doesn't dream of having his boy hold up the state trophy?

I wouldn't discount the recruitment ability of coaches, Blue.
Ever hear of Greg Trebil?
Please investigate the rise of Holy Angels to hockey prominence, and then report back.

[bluelineenvy]

quote]I'm still waiting for a specific example of a coach going into a public school feeder, going up to a prospective athlete, and saying come attend our school and we'll give you a tuition break. When you give me one I will "acknowledge it."
[/quote]Karl (East) Hit it right on the money.  Warroad isn't any different than the private schools.  They actually may be worse.  Did you see the Warroad "AD" during the tournament on T.V. about how much college schloarship money those kids are given?  WOW...

Goldy - Forgive me if you stated something else in previous pages, but your never going to get an example and we all know it. Why, because the coaches are not the ones doing the recruiting. It's parents, friends, family, past students and the tournament itself. The tourney helps the privates recruit through the great T.V. exposure. I know they all get time, it just benefits certain schools more than others. The privates keep on winning and play more games at the X and therefore are on T.V. more. Who doesn't dream of having his boy hold up the state trophy?[/quote]

The teams that got the most TV exposure this year are both public.

If the coaches aren't doing the recruiting then there is absolutely nothing even close to wrong going on. Thanks for making my argument for me.
[/quote]
For Class AA your correct, but were not taking about AA now are we. I agree with you, there is nothing happing that is against MSHSL rules, but to say that nothing "wrong" is happening is a matter of opinion. I'm not sure of your background, but you would probably feel different about this had you grown up in TRF, DL, LF, ALEX, HUTCH, NEW ULM, etc... I'm from LF and have found it frustrating the last years getting to the tourny only to be knocked out by a (better) private school. And this year when it seemed all the stars aligned and that a state championship may happen, along comes Breck to stomp out those dreams. I just feel bad for the kids.
I don't hate private schools, or the idea of them, (you could lump Warroad in there) I just think it's not a completely level playing field. Don't you think that Breck would have given EP a run for they're money. I would have liked to have seen it with as hot as Breck was.....

[Goldy Gopher]

quote]I'm still waiting for a specific example of a coach going into a public school feeder, going up to a prospective athlete, and saying come attend our school and we'll give you a tuition break. When you give me one I will "acknowledge it."

Karl (East) Hit it right on the money.  Warroad isn't any different than the private schools.  They actually may be worse.  Did you see the Warroad "AD" during the tournament on T.V. about how much college schloarship money those kids are given?  WOW...

Goldy - Forgive me if you stated something else in previous pages, but your never going to get an example and we all know it. Why, because the coaches are not the ones doing the recruiting. It's parents, friends, family, past students and the tournament itself. The tourney helps the privates recruit through the great T.V. exposure. I know they all get time, it just benefits certain schools more than others. The privates keep on winning and play more games at the X and therefore are on T.V. more. Who doesn't dream of having his boy hold up the state trophy?[/quote]

The teams that got the most TV exposure this year are both public.

If the coaches aren't doing the recruiting then there is absolutely nothing even close to wrong going on. Thanks for making my argument for me.
[/quote]
For Class AA your correct, but were not taking about AA now are we. I agree with you, there is nothing happing that is against MSHSL rules, but to say that nothing "wrong" is happening is a matter of opinion. I'm not sure of your background, but you would probably feel different about this had you grown up in TRF, DL, LF, ALEX, HUTCH, NEW ULM, etc... I'm from LF and have found it frustrating the last years getting to the tourny only to be knocked out by a (better) private school. And this year when it seemed all the stars aligned and that a state championship may happen, along comes Breck to stomp out those dreams. I just feel bad for the kids.
I don't hate private schools, or the idea of them, (you could lump Warroad in there) I just think it's not a completely level playing field. Don't you think that Breck would have given EP a run for they're money. I would have liked to have seen it with as hot as Breck was.....[/quote]

I grew up in St. Cloud and went to public schools my entire life.

I enjoy the residents from Little Falls more than I ever should. "LF is the greatest team ever. Hanowski can't be stopped. Undefeated state champs."

Until they run into a better team. Then it's:

"Private schools recruit so it's not fair. The playing field isn't level."

Where were those arguments when you were undefeated? Sounds like sour grapes to me.

[karl(east)]

A "special classification" already exists. They call them "private" schools.

They're classified as private schools because of who funds them, not because of anything that goes on inside the building.

I somewhat agree on the subjectivity of educational quality. It is disingenuous to attempt to imply that public and private schools, on the norm, are equivalent, however. Folks don't pay their tax dollars which are targeted for their local public school system, AND private school tuition payments for trivial reasons. Quite obviously, a fair percentage of folks see quite a benefit.

Isn't it equally disingenuous to say that all public schools are equivalent, though?
And to turn around the other argument, a fair number of people also see enough benefit to go to a much more distant public school under open enrollment.

That being said, the MSHSL (or anyone else) does not have to "rank" schools at all. They merely need to acknowledge that, from a sports perspective, publics and privates play by a different set of rules for forming teams. That is enough to justify a different class.

Private schools follow the exact same rules that public schools do under the MSHSL.

[WayOutWest]

They're classified as private schools because of who funds them, not because of anything that goes on inside the building.

Yep. They're still a different classification.

Isn't it equally disingenuous to say that all public schools are equivalent, though?
And to turn around the other argument, a fair number of people also see enough benefit to go to a much more distant public school under open enrollment.
.

Well, quite obviously no two schools are equal. The way some private schools create hockey teams is quite a bit different than how public schools do, however. And open enrollment isn't nearly as much of an issue as private school recruitment. Entire teams of private school players are made up of kids that effectively transferred into the area. Again, please check the data on the Breck roster for a great illustration of this.

Private schools follow the exact same rules that public schools do under the MSHSL.

Yep, and that is the problem. The MSHSL should implement a separate class for them, for there are few rules around the way in which hockey teams are formed, and there needs to be more, to level the playing field.

[deacon]

The whole idea of "checking the roster to see where the kids come from and then you'll see that they recruit" is such a bad argument. Breck is private school, STA is a private school, due to the very nature of private schools, they have to recruit to get students to go to the school. I do not see why people don't understand this. Kids are going to come from many places and this is exactly what administrators want; they want their kids to come from all over the place.

[WayOutWest]

The whole idea of "checking the roster to see where the kids come from and then you'll see that they recruit" is such a bad argument. Breck is private school, STA is a private school, due to the very nature of private schools, they have to recruit to get students to go to the school. I do not see why people don't understand this. Kids are going to come from many places and this is exactly what administrators want; they want their kids to come from all over the place.

Thanks for proving my point.
The pool of kids that a private school pulls from is SO much more wide reaching than a public school, that putting their athletic taams in the same classification looks a bit ludicrous.

[WayOutWest]

The whole idea of "checking the roster to see where the kids come from and then you'll see that they recruit" is such a bad argument. Breck is private school, STA is a private school, due to the very nature of private schools, they have to recruit to get students to go to the school. I do not see why people don't understand this. Kids are going to come from many places and this is exactly what administrators want; they want their kids to come from all over the place.

Actually, administrators don't care where they come from, just that they come. And for logistical reasons, I am sure it would be preferable if they all came from within a couple of miles of the school, rather than over a wide span.
What you need is a graph showing the dispersion pattern of students, at let's say Breck. And then lay the dispersion pattern of Breck hockey kids over the top of that. Do you think they'd align pretty well? Which one do you believe would average the furthest distances? Hmmmmm..........