***Alliance teams***

Bruins · Post by **Bruins** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:42 am

MoreCowBell wrote:The fact is Minnesota teams loose to the the top summer AAA teams by at least 6-7 goals just ask the Blades and Machine people. Minnesota hockey is falling by the wayside, most of the Minnesota AAA teams would be embaressed in the Motown, Chicago and Prospects spring summer tournaments.

Your not even close with that statement, nice try.

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:12 am

MoreCowBell wrote:The fact is Minnesota teams loose to the the top summer AAA teams by at least 6-7 goals just ask the Blades and Machine people. Minnesota hockey is falling by the wayside, most of the Minnesota AAA teams would be embaressed in the Motown, Chicago and Prospects spring summer tournaments.

My guess is that most of the AAA teams in other states would be equally embarassed. Aren't these top tournaments for the top teams?

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:45 am

MoreCowBell wrote:The fact is Minnesota teams loose to the the top summer AAA teams by at least 6-7 goals just ask the Blades and Machine people. Minnesota hockey is falling by the wayside, most of the Minnesota AAA teams would be embaressed in the Motown, Chicago and Prospects spring summer tournaments.

You might want to do a little research to back up a statement like that. Did you check out the results of last summers Golden Walleye Classic and Chicago Mission tournaments at the 95 level? I think the Blades and Machine hold up just fine to other AAA teams in North America that play year round together.

Tenoverpar · Post by **Tenoverpar** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:14 am

I'm not sure what morecowbell is trying to say here, are you saying that the Blades and Machine are losing by 6 or 7 goals?????

I'm not sure but I think the 96 machine won the Motown tournmanet last summer, beating ALL of the Detroit teams enroute, and I'm pretty sure the Blades 94's have played in the finals of prospects not to long ago.

If you're talking about the 95% of so called AAA summer programs here in Minnesota, you're probably right, they would struggle drastically in these tournaments.

The reality is though that the top AAA summer programs in the US are stacked, very stacked. The Selects program has kids from all over the US and Eastern Canada, the best of the best. The Mission Nike Bauer team is loaded with kids from all over Illinois, the list goes on.

Bottom line, if you're leaving this state and calling yourself AAA, you better bring 3 lines that can play, a goalie that's a stud, and some D that are nasty, otherwise you're wasting your time and money. [/url]

thunderwolf · Post by **thunderwolf** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:14 am

iwearmysunglassesatnight wrote:
muckandgrind wrote:The Meltdown schedules should be released any day now...it will be interested to see which teams are in and which teams are out. That should answer a lot of these questions about quality of competition,

The open schedule has been out for awhile. The invite schedule is not yet out. Is that because they are hoping for a few miracles at some of the age levels? The quality of teams at some of the levels maybe surprising.

I know the 97 team that won the open division last year was told they couldn't enter the invite because it was already full.

I'd also like to know where one can find the open schedule. I have been checking the showdown website for awhile.

Bruins · Post by **Bruins** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:39 am

Last spring/summer results:

Winnipeg (subway): 96 Machine-champions (dominated)
97 Machine- 4th place
98 Machine-lost in championship game
97 Blades-3rd place (lost to champs in semis)

Toronto Prospects: 97 Blades- in championship game
96 Blades- in championship game

Chicago: 97 Blades -wins over 97 St. Louis Jr Blues and 97 Chicago Mission
95 Blades- also with wins over Jr Blues/Mission

Showdown in Motown: 96 Machine -champions

MoreCowBell I dont think the Machine and Blades will agree with you. They hold up just fine when they leave the state

dogeatdog1 · Post by **dogeatdog1** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:02 am

MoreCowBell wrote:The fact is Minnesota teams loose to the the top summer AAA teams by at least 6-7 goals just ask the Blades and Machine people. Minnesota hockey is falling by the wayside, most of the Minnesota AAA teams would be embaressed in the Motown, Chicago and Prospects spring summer tournaments.

That comment is not all true. The fact that Blades and Machine put together a top level team is true but if you look at the records of the Jr. Blues and the Bell tires of the world they beat their rival State AAA teams by the same amount. I would Bet the second tier Michigan AAA teams would get embarrassed in the Prosbects. Look at what the 97 Duece did last year in the Mission invitational. (they got beat up pretty good but had a good experience) Fact is, You have the top tier teams in all states and people are getting worried that MN is falling behind in AAA? I would pose this, only at the 95-97 level as that is what I have seen the most, MN is doing just fine competing at the top level and you will get a team or two that will jump up and bite one of the top teams every once in a while.. ( example 97 Machine lost in the finals last year to one of the Easton teams in either the meltdown or easton cup don't know which) At those levels the other Independent teams are just not as deep and at the showcase AAA level the depth is even further diluted.. I have seen kids that could compete at the elite level skating on a AAA Showcase teams. All in all the talent in the state is still pretty good and MN still exports a ton of kids to top colleges. So Enjoy your lot in life and if you kid is good, there is enough exposure out there that he will get noticed and the opportunities will come.

Judgeandjury · Post by **Judgeandjury** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:44 am

watchdog wrote:oh im sorry i miss read the 145 hours. well the diffrence in getting all the extra hours on the ice (when its not practice) is its fun. i know this because if my kids had homework or other things they had to do so they couldn't go to the rink they would cry when they were younger. now i know 2 out of 3 of my kids are tierd of practice at this point even tierd of hockey. i cant imagine how they would feel if they were doing drills all summer. every parent is going to do what they want and believe me when you ask your kid are you sick of hockey 99% of the time they will say no because they know thats what (you) want to hear!!!!

True. I guess we have to do our best to make sure there's a good balance.

drop the puck · Post by **drop the puck** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:04 pm

Of course no AAA team should be allowed to form on the eastside of the metro ...

really not many good skaters over there in District 2 or the Eastside of D8.

The very few that manage to reach such elite status MUST have parents willing to drive them to Edina, St Louis Park, or Maple Grove or they might as well quit.

play4fun · Post by **play4fun** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:08 pm

drop the puck wrote:

"Of course no AAA team should be allowed to form on the eastside of the metro ...

really not many good skaters over there in District 2 or the Eastside of D8.

The very few that manage to reach such elite status MUST have parents willing to drive them to Edina, St Louis Park, or Maple Grove or they might as well quit."

Agreed. Your point?

drop the puck · Post by **drop the puck** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:28 pm

Maybe the alliance should call themselves AAAA or AAA+ hockey.

Sorry, but AAA hockey in MN is now defined as:

1) non association managed, non MN hockey controlled OFF-SEASON hockey
no coaching certification required
no background checks needed if independent

2) non showcase spring/fall league game hockey

3) ad hoc teams that desire practice + games vs just games

4) seek out an schedule tournaments and games vs like opponents

guess really wrong and you win by a 50 -2 goal margin or lose by 2 - 50 goal margin over the 4 game tournament

That said I have nothing against the iceman, machine or blades. If they want to only play each with other or in invite only tournaments great ... better for everyone on both sides of the fence.

Now what if they schedule and play a non-alliance team and lose what happens

gilmour · Post by **gilmour** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:30 pm

drop the puck wrote:Maybe the alliance should call themselves AAAA or AAA+ hockey.

Sorry, but AAA hockey in MN is now defined as:

1) non association managed, non MN hockey controlled OFF-SEASON hockey
no coaching certification required
no background checks needed if independent

2) non showcase spring/fall league game hockey

3) ad hoc teams that desire practice + games vs just games

4) seek out an schedule tournaments and games vs like opponents

guess really wrong and you win by a 50 -2 goal margin or lose by 2 - 50 goal margin over the 4 game tournament

That said I have nothing against the iceman, machine or blades. If they want to only play each with other or in invite only tournaments great ... better for everyone on both sides of the fence.

Now what if they schedule and play a non-alliance team and lose what happens

Clarification - The Icemen are not part of the Alliance and never were. They were denied participation in the Alliance tournaments. The Blades are not part of the Alliance but are allowed to participate in Alliance tournaments.

Judgeandjury · Post by **Judgeandjury** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:52 pm

gilmour wrote:
drop the puck wrote:Maybe the alliance should call themselves AAAA or AAA+ hockey.

Sorry, but AAA hockey in MN is now defined as:

1) non association managed, non MN hockey controlled OFF-SEASON hockey
no coaching certification required
no background checks needed if independent

2) non showcase spring/fall league game hockey

3) ad hoc teams that desire practice + games vs just games

4) seek out an schedule tournaments and games vs like opponents

guess really wrong and you win by a 50 -2 goal margin or lose by 2 - 50 goal margin over the 4 game tournament

That said I have nothing against the iceman, machine or blades. If they want to only play each with other or in invite only tournaments great ... better for everyone on both sides of the fence.

Now what if they schedule and play a non-alliance team and lose what happens
Clarification - The Icemen are not part of the Alliance and never were. They were denied participation in the Alliance tournaments. The Blades are not part of the Alliance but are allowed to participate in Alliance tournaments.

Good point! Some programs were not asked or chose not to be part of the alliance.
I remember the Blades saying they never agreed or will never agree to be part of the alliance and yes they can participate in any tourney they choose. If the two programs do not think your team is any good they'll just refuse to allow you to play. I can also promise you if you develop a strong teams they will not allow you to play anyways in fear they would lose.

gilmour · Post by **gilmour** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:00 pm

Judgeandjury wrote:
gilmour wrote:
drop the puck wrote:Maybe the alliance should call themselves AAAA or AAA+ hockey.

Sorry, but AAA hockey in MN is now defined as:

1) non association managed, non MN hockey controlled OFF-SEASON hockey
no coaching certification required
no background checks needed if independent

2) non showcase spring/fall league game hockey

3) ad hoc teams that desire practice + games vs just games

4) seek out an schedule tournaments and games vs like opponents

guess really wrong and you win by a 50 -2 goal margin or lose by 2 - 50 goal margin over the 4 game tournament

That said I have nothing against the iceman, machine or blades. If they want to only play each with other or in invite only tournaments great ... better for everyone on both sides of the fence.

Now what if they schedule and play a non-alliance team and lose what happens
Clarification - The Icemen are not part of the Alliance and never were. They were denied participation in the Alliance tournaments. The Blades are not part of the Alliance but are allowed to participate in Alliance tournaments.
Good point! Some programs were not asked or chose not to be part of the alliance.
I remember the Blades saying they never agreed or will never agree to be part of the alliance and yes they can participate in any tourney they choose. If the two programs do not think your team is any good they'll just refuse to allow you to play. I can also promise you if you develop a strong teams they will not allow you to play anyways in fear they would lose.

Those reasons may be true but the main reason for the Alliance was to eliminate players leaving their program for the Icemen or any other non-Alliance team.

Judgeandjury · Post by **Judgeandjury** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:14 pm

gilmour wrote:
Judgeandjury wrote:
gilmour wrote: Clarification - The Icemen are not part of the Alliance and never were. They were denied participation in the Alliance tournaments. The Blades are not part of the Alliance but are allowed to participate in Alliance tournaments.
Good point! Some programs were not asked or chose not to be part of the alliance.
I remember the Blades saying they never agreed or will never agree to be part of the alliance and yes they can participate in any tourney they choose. If the two programs do not think your team is any good they'll just refuse to allow you to play. I can also promise you if you develop a strong teams they will not allow you to play anyways in fear they would lose.
Those reasons may be true but the main reason for the Alliance was to eliminate players leaving their program for the Icemen or any other non-Alliance team.

I agree that is the main reason money is a very close second.

nobama · Post by **nobama** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:27 pm

Bruins wrote:Last spring/summer results:

Winnipeg (subway): 96 Machine-champions (dominated)
97 Machine- 4th place
98 Machine-lost in championship game
97 Blades-3rd place (lost to champs in semis)

Toronto Prospects: 97 Blades- in championship game
96 Blades- in championship game

Chicago: 97 Blades -wins over 97 St. Louis Jr Blues and 97 Chicago Mission
95 Blades- also with wins over Jr Blues/Mission

Showdown in Motown: 96 Machine -champions

MoreCowBell I dont think the Machine and Blades will agree with you. They hold up just fine when they leave the state

Subway is one of the weaker out of town summer tournaments

I heard the 96 Blades lost 10 or 11 to 1 in Chicago

I am not 100% sure but I was pretty sure Bell Tire blasted the 96 machine

iwearmysunglassesatnight · Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:30 pm

Good point! Some programs were not asked or chose not to be part of the alliance.
I remember the Blades saying they never agreed or will never agree to be part of the alliance and yes they can participate in any tourney they choose. If the two programs do not think your team is any good they'll just refuse to allow you to play. I can also promise you if you develop a strong teams they will not allow you to play anyways in fear they would lose.[/quote]

ONE IN PARTICULAR won't play you because if the lose to you, they realize they will lose their players too you... their paying customers.

quote from an alliance manager : " i would love too have us play you, so would our coach. However the program says we can't"

Bruins · Post by **Bruins** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:51 pm

Nobama, although I like your name, I do not agree. Subway is one of the top tournaments in the summer. Check the web site, top Canadien teams plus most Machine and Blades teams. I'm not sure if you can find a better summer tourny. 96 Machine won the tourny in Detroit (Showdown in Motown). Machine and Blades do very well in the big tournaments. Other MN AAA teams do not do as well , that is why people hate the Blades and Machine. We all hate winners.

Judgeandjury · Post by **Judgeandjury** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:22 am

Bruins wrote:Nobama, although I like your name, I do not agree. Subway is one of the top tournaments in the summer. Check the web site, top Canadien teams plus most Machine and Blades teams. I'm not sure if you can find a better summer tourny. 96 Machine won the tourny in Detroit (Showdown in Motown). Machine and Blades do very well in the big tournaments. Other MN AAA teams do not do as well , that is why people hate the Blades and Machine. We all hate winners.

Mernie McHockey is trying to create the best tourney in town and using the alliance to do it. He's trying to make the Stars and Stripes tourney the real deal.
Problem is he's already inviting non-alliance teams to play in it. I heard one out of town team is using metro area non-alliance kids to play in it.

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:44 am

Judgeandjury wrote:
Bruins wrote:Nobama, although I like your name, I do not agree. Subway is one of the top tournaments in the summer. Check the web site, top Canadien teams plus most Machine and Blades teams. I'm not sure if you can find a better summer tourny. 96 Machine won the tourny in Detroit (Showdown in Motown). Machine and Blades do very well in the big tournaments. Other MN AAA teams do not do as well , that is why people hate the Blades and Machine. We all hate winners.
Mernie McHockey is trying to create the best tourney in town and using the alliance to do it. He's trying to make the Stars and Stripes tourney the real deal.
Problem is he's already inviting non-alliance teams to play in it. I heard one out of town team is using metro area non-alliance kids to play in it.

I was talking to someone "in the know" last night and he told me that the Alliance is "no more", in fact, it never officially "was". I realize that Capra still references it on the Easton website, but that doesn't mean anything. So all this complaining about something that doesn't even exist is all for nought.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:04 am

Not only does that website reference it, it indicates that it has registered a trademark.

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:29 am

InigoMontoya wrote:Not only does that website reference it, it indicates that it has registered a trademark.

Anyone can register a trademark.

From what I understand (and this could be bad information, but I don't think it is based on who told me), but there was an attempt to form this alliance between Tim Hawkinson (Showcase, Easton and CCM), the crew who run the Legacy (Cylones), and Bernie McBain (Minnesota Made). They also want to include the Blades, but they wanted nothing to do with it.

Later, McBain supposedly wanted to exclude his Machine teams and only have the Duece, Snipers and Grinders be part of it and then things kind of fell apart. And then, there was a split between the two guys who started the Cyclones which caused the remaining guy to rename them the "Legacy".

So without McBain or the Legacy, the "Alliance" is just another word for Showcase Hockey, because Tim oversees Showcase, Easton and CCM.

Again, this is just what I was told but somebody who usually provides me with good info. Take it for what it's worth.

Judgeandjury · Post by **Judgeandjury** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:20 am

muckandgrind wrote:
Judgeandjury wrote:
Bruins wrote:Nobama, although I like your name, I do not agree. Subway is one of the top tournaments in the summer. Check the web site, top Canadien teams plus most Machine and Blades teams. I'm not sure if you can find a better summer tourny. 96 Machine won the tourny in Detroit (Showdown in Motown). Machine and Blades do very well in the big tournaments. Other MN AAA teams do not do as well , that is why people hate the Blades and Machine. We all hate winners.
Mernie McHockey is trying to create the best tourney in town and using the alliance to do it. He's trying to make the Stars and Stripes tourney the real deal.
Problem is he's already inviting non-alliance teams to play in it. I heard one out of town team is using metro area non-alliance kids to play in it.
I was talking to someone "in the know" last night and he told me that the Alliance is "no more", in fact, it never officially "was". I realize that Capra still references it on the Easton website, but that doesn't mean anything. So all this complaining about something that doesn't even exist is all for nought.

Muckandgrind- You are so wrong! Without disclosing too much information I know metro area kids that were part of the alliance teams last year that chose to play for newer programs this year that aren't allowed to play in certain alliance tourneys. Do your home work and ask around. The people running these tourneys are excluding metro area kids that used to play for their programs. 100% truth.
The reason they're excluding kids that used to play with them is the fact they don't want other parents to see that there are greener pastures for the kids.

I think the Easton website says some thing like this:

Team Easton AAA Hockey Club
One Of The Top AAA Invitational Hockey Clubs In The Metro Area And A Member Of The Minnesota United AAA Hockey AllianceInspired to help athletes become their best...without sacrificing other sports, cost and being a kid!

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:45 am

Judgeandjury wrote:
muckandgrind wrote:
Judgeandjury wrote: Mernie McHockey is trying to create the best tourney in town and using the alliance to do it. He's trying to make the Stars and Stripes tourney the real deal.
Problem is he's already inviting non-alliance teams to play in it. I heard one out of town team is using metro area non-alliance kids to play in it.
I was talking to someone "in the know" last night and he told me that the Alliance is "no more", in fact, it never officially "was". I realize that Capra still references it on the Easton website, but that doesn't mean anything. So all this complaining about something that doesn't even exist is all for nought.
Muckandgrind- You are so wrong! Without disclosing too much information I know metro area kids that were part of the alliance teams last year that chose to play for newer programs this year that aren't allowed to play in certain alliance tourneys. Do your home work and ask around. The people running these tourneys are excluding metro area kids that used to play for their programs. 100% truth.
The reason they're excluding kids that used to play with them is the fact they don't want other parents to see that there are greener pastures for the kids.

I think the Easton website says some thing like this:

Team Easton AAA Hockey Club
One Of The Top AAA Invitational Hockey Clubs In The Metro Area And A Member Of The Minnesota United AAA Hockey AllianceInspired to help athletes become their best...without sacrificing other sports, cost and being a kid!

I mentioned the fact in my previous post that the Easton website still has the "Alliance" mentioned, but if you knew Bob Capra, that wouldn't surprise you. At one time he claimed the Blades were part of this alliance, which was a lie.

Like I said, whatever "Alliance" there is is just Tim Hawkinson and Bernie McBain, and I was told that McBain was pulling out to leave just Hawkinson, who runs Showcase, Easton and CCM. The Cylones/Legacy are going through their own issues as evidenced by the name change.

Just because some teams weren't allowed to register in the Meltdown or Easton does not mean the "Alliance" is at work. Like I said, let's see how this plays out. We haven't seen any brackets for any tournaments yet. It could be some teams were "allowed" to register because they were wanted to make room for the CCM teams, which Tim Hawkinson controls.

That being said, I know that, at the very least, there was an intention of creating an "alliance" among several separate entities to shut other programs out...which is stupid and may be the reason why the Magicians started the Warrior Cup and why the Icemen started the Caribou Coffee Classic.

I'm not defending Showcase, MM or anyone else. I don't have an issue with them preventing weaker teams from entering their tournaments, but shutting out quality programs is stupid and will only hurt them in the long run.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:52 am

I see his participle dangling. Is Team Easton "inspired", or is the Alliance "inspired"?