Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
We dont understand it because it doesn't make any sense.deacon wrote:STA doesn't opt up because it would signal a shift in priorities leaning towards athletics, which has stated a couple times now. I don't know how people don't understand this.
I went to Cretin. But I have many family members and friends who went to STA, so I know about both schools.K Dope wrote:Just what we need - our future military personnel competing at the lowest level.DotaDangler wrote:Jack Daniels, here are the facts for you-
You claim STA plays A because "They need the exposure winning brings". This is simply false, and you just made it up. The school has been around for 150 years and will stay open regardless of how good the hockey team is. They dont all of a sudden need the exposure when they have managed just fine for 140 or so years without good hockey.
You claim "They play in A and the lower classes in other sports so they can be more succesful in the postseason". Also false, they play where they are assigned by the MSHL at all sports. They have always played where they are assigned and always will. This has been explained at least a hundred times.
Just because they are good for a couple years doesn't mean they are trophy chasers. They didn't go to state in Football, basketball, or hockey this year. They haven't won a football state championship in 25 years, yet you think they should opt up from where they have been assigned??
"Do you actually beleive that a school that has been around 150 years cant play AA hockey and still maintain high academics" I never said that. They probably could play AA, as could many other schools, but they wont, because STA is unlike Breck, Blake, Cretin or any other private school. They still are an all-male, military school, as Cretin once was. Notice how Cretin started to form into the sports/recruiting powerhouse they are today when they made military optional and combined with Derham. Its not a coincidence, they shifted their priorities plain and simple. The people at STA dont want this to happen and as a result they will not opt up.
STA calls Cretin out on recruiting! Says they have shifted their priorities plain and simple!
Quick someone from Cretin tell us what is actually going on over there.
Papa is right - the successful A programs need to opt up. It is the right thing to do on so many levels. Imagine when one of them opt up and win the big one - there will be no more arguments on this board - other than recruiting
Like I said in the past, I'm not terribly passionate about this issue, I'm here to discuss what, to me, seems like an inequity in the system. I am a Flyers fan, but have no issue with them losing to a better team. And they definitely lost to a better team. What makes me want to take part in this discussion is why the other team was better and if the playing field is even. If you want to take jabs and be aGoldy Gopher wrote:Mite-dad wrote:If you think privates winning 7 out of 10 state class A titles since 2000 is close to perfect, then I guess you are right. The best place for them to be is AA. Maybe move them up after they win two state titles for at least 5-10 years. Then they can opt back down if they can't swing with the big boys.
We're all sorry that LF was bounced from the tourney, once again, by a better team. Just because you're rattled doesn't mean anything is wrong with the system. If the number was 9 of 10 or 10 of 10 you might have a point. In the last 20 class A tourneys publics are 12 of 20. Based on your logic all public class A teams should be in AA. We just can't have them dominating the tourney like this.
that's ok, I'm a big boy and can handle it. But if that's the only way you know how to have a reasonable debate, then you have issues.As the father of a current Cadet this is my understanding as well. I have been told STA remains at its assigned levels because they don't want to raise the perceived importance of any one sport over the institution or other sports. And no, my son is not a hockey player at the Academy nor did he choose to attend there because of any sport - he was hooked after shadowing for a day.deacon wrote:STA doesn't opt up because it would signal a shift in priorities leaning towards athletics, which has stated a couple times now. I don't know how people don't understand this. It is not BS. I went there for 6 years, I would know. It is unlike any other school. Administrators want to see the athletic programs succeed only because they genuinely care about the students. Winning conference championships and state titles does nothing to attract new students. A random student isn't going to decide to go to STA because when they won a state title. People don't go to private schools on a whim. Their is a capacity number at the Academy that is there to preserve the professor-student ratio. There is almost always a waiting list to get in to the school and it has little to nothing to do with winning state titles. I don't know what more can be said about said about this, STA plays in the class they are assigned, it is as simple as that.
With 25 9th graders that play hockey, Things will change there soon too. Enough good players will get cut and parents will change their perspective.cclavin wrote:As the father of a current Cadet this is my understanding as well. I have been told STA remains at its assigned levels because they don't want to raise the perceived importance of any one sport over the institution or other sports. And no, my son is not a hockey player at the Academy nor did he choose to attend there because of any sport - he was hooked after shadowing for a day.deacon wrote:STA doesn't opt up because it would signal a shift in priorities leaning towards athletics, which has stated a couple times now. I don't know how people don't understand this. It is not BS. I went there for 6 years, I would know. It is unlike any other school. Administrators want to see the athletic programs succeed only because they genuinely care about the students. Winning conference championships and state titles does nothing to attract new students. A random student isn't going to decide to go to STA because when they won a state title. People don't go to private schools on a whim. Their is a capacity number at the Academy that is there to preserve the professor-student ratio. There is almost always a waiting list to get in to the school and it has little to nothing to do with winning state titles. I don't know what more can be said about said about this, STA plays in the class they are assigned, it is as simple as that.
I dont doubt that is what you(and others ) are told.cclavin wrote:
As the father of a current Cadet this is my understanding as well. I have been told STA remains at its assigned levels because they don't want to raise the perceived importance of any one sport over the institution or other sports. .
Good line I will admit. But you still don't get it. No one is saying that the academics will crumble if they move to AA, they just don't want to put there main priority on sports like other schools. This doesn't mean they cant be good, it just means they wont move up a class voluntarily.jackdaniels wrote:I dont doubt that is what you(and others ) are told.cclavin wrote:
As the father of a current Cadet this is my understanding as well. I have been told STA remains at its assigned levels because they don't want to raise the perceived importance of any one sport over the institution or other sports. .
But, IMO , it is a lot of BS.
Many schools play in different classes depending on the sport, either because that's the way they are assigned or they opt up in one and not another.
The last time I checked no schools academics were crumbling from it. I doubt that the MSHSL would allow it , indeed require it, if that was any kind of a concern.
I think STA needs to come out of darkness and into truth on this issue.
So, you're saying that STA has a "tradition" of cheesily playing at an inappropriate level?DotaDangler wrote: Its the alumni who are writing fat checks for STA's upcoming building renovations who control this, and they don't want anything straying from tradition.
](./images/smilies/eusa_wall.gif "Brick wall"){kind=small}
Ok, for the last time. It's about perception. It's not like they are afraid they wouldn't be able to maintain academic excellence. It's the fact that from an alumni perspective, donors perspective, and the board of trustees perspective, it signals that there is a shift in focus to athletics. Seeking out better competition (moving to AA would do this, it is undoubtedly better competition) because they have a good hockey program is a blatant shift in focus.jackdaniels wrote:We dont understand it because it doesn't make any sense.deacon wrote:STA doesn't opt up because it would signal a shift in priorities leaning towards athletics, which has stated a couple times now. I don't know how people don't understand this.
What difference does it make, from an academic standpoint, which class you play in?
That arena is shared with the University of St. Thomas. My understanding is that the only reason it was built there was because STA had the extra land. Also, it was paid for almost entirely by donations.goldy313 wrote:When STA built it's own ice arena on campus they moved on to another level, one shared with only a handfull of schools; Minnetonka for one. To say they aren't concerned with athletic success is nonsense, how long has STA been very good in hockey? 6 years according to one post, when did they open up their on campus ice arena? 2003. I'm sure that ice arena fills a huge void in the educational system at STA.
My biggest concern with schools like Breck and STA is you can't on one hand play A hockey then in the same voice complain about section 3A being weak. The schools in 3A, in my opinion, deserves at least as much of chance to go to the state tournament as the Breck's and STA's of the hockey world.
These are schools with every competitive advantage yet play down and worse play the Lou Holtz poor us card, it's like Iowa (I can't in a straight face use Minnesota) saying we can't beat Ohio State in football but we're not going to cut scholarships and we're going to play in the MIAC next year. As long as the MSHSL continues to punish the Dodge Counties and River Lakes of the world just for adding schools to field a team they should look hard at what some of the privates do and where they draw from as well.
So you were born in 2006? That explains a lot of things..WayOutWest wrote:So, you're saying that STA has a "tradition" of cheesily playing at an inappropriate level?DotaDangler wrote: Its the alumni who are writing fat checks for STA's upcoming building renovations who control this, and they don't want anything straying from tradition.
Brilliant!!!
Why didn't you SAY it was all about "tradition" to begin with!!??
Ooops!deacon wrote:
Ok, for the last time. It's about perception. It's not like they are afraid they wouldn't be able to maintain academic excellence. It's the fact that from an alumni perspective, donors perspective, and the board of trustees perspective, it signals that there is a shift in focus to athletics.
The cat is out of the bag.
Quite honestly it doesn't seem like it would be that big of a jump for STA. More than half their games are against AA teams already.deacon wrote:Ok, for the last time. It's about perception. It's not like they are afraid they wouldn't be able to maintain academic excellence. It's the fact that from an alumni perspective, donors perspective, and the board of trustees perspective, it signals that there is a shift in focus to athletics. Seeking out better competition (moving to AA would do this, it is undoubtedly better competition) because they have a good hockey program is a blatant shift in focus.jackdaniels wrote:We dont understand it because it doesn't make any sense.deacon wrote:STA doesn't opt up because it would signal a shift in priorities leaning towards athletics, which has stated a couple times now. I don't know how people don't understand this.
What difference does it make, from an academic standpoint, which class you play in?
goldy313 wrote:Let me get this straight...
So STA doesn't want to give donors the idea that they care more about success in hockey than they do about academics but the arena was paid for almost entirely by donors? Again, what is the educational advantage an arena gives?
For what it's worth I don't believe Benilde, Cretin, Holy Angels, or Hill-Murray give anyone the impression they care more about athletics than they do about education yet they choose to play AA hockey and in Cretin's case at the top level in every sport. To the best of my knowledge they're all fine schools giving at least as good an education as Lourdes, STA, SCC, etc. that choose to stay in A hockey.
Okay well answer the first part. He has a good point. The donors hand out fat checks for a new arena, but want the focus to be on academics. Fork out cash for a renovated library, new academic program etc. Point is, clearly they care about hockey, not nessacarily more than academics, but a whole bunch.DotaDangler wrote:goldy313 wrote:Let me get this straight...
So STA doesn't want to give donors the idea that they care more about success in hockey than they do about academics but the arena was paid for almost entirely by donors? Again, what is the educational advantage an arena gives?
For what it's worth I don't believe Benilde, Cretin, Holy Angels, or Hill-Murray give anyone the impression they care more about athletics than they do about education yet they choose to play AA hockey and in Cretin's case at the top level in every sport. To the best of my knowledge they're all fine schools giving at least as good an education as Lourdes, STA, SCC, etc. that choose to stay in A hockey.
Are you Joking??? Academically, Cretin is a nothing compared to STA, the only thing they care about is athletics. They used to be exactly the same as STA, but they shifted their priorities to sports and dropped the military and combined with Derham. Still a good school, I enjoyed going there, but if you honestly think they dont "give anyone the impression they care more about athletics" you are crazy.
Such as the science-math wing & theater (IIRC) which will soon be built?Papa Bergundy wrote:Okay well answer the first part. He has a good point. The donors hand out fat checks for a new arena, but want the focus to be on academics. Fork out cash for a renovated library, new academic program etc. Point is, clearly they care about hockey, not nessacarily more than academics, but a whole bunch.
I don't think you're lying. I'm sure STA's mission statement will tell you everything you have reported to us. But behind closed doors at those meetings, I'd love to hear the real motivation behind staying in class A.
Dota, STA is a fine institution and I am glad it is there so people have that opton but you ned to lay off the Kool Aid.DotaDangler wrote:
Are you Joking??? Academically, Cretin is a nothing compared to STA, the only thing they care about is athletics. They used to be exactly the same as STA, but they shifted their priorities to sports and dropped the military and combined with Derham.
Jack Daniels, you need to lay off the Jim Beam. Firstly, I went to Cretin. I know its not a bad school. you love to draw outrageous conclusions from the simplest of statements. I never said dropping military and having girls meant the "demise of academic excellence". Im simply saying that they shifted focus. Ask anyone who went there, worked there, or knows anything about it. When you cut the military and go co-ed after 100 years of it its a shift in focus. This is not a bad thing, its a good school, but not quite the same as STA. Unless you have gone to either school, I dont really care what you think about the academics because you dont know.jackdaniels wrote:Dota, STA is a fine institution and I am glad it is there so people have that opton but you ned to lay off the Kool Aid.DotaDangler wrote:
Are you Joking??? Academically, Cretin is a nothing compared to STA, the only thing they care about is athletics. They used to be exactly the same as STA, but they shifted their priorities to sports and dropped the military and combined with Derham.
CDH's top students go to highly selective colleges just like STA's do. CDH does have diversity in its student body and more so than STA but you are wrong if you think a top student taking honors courses at CDH cant get at least as good an education and college options as he would get at STA.
This is also true of most public schools.
Dropping military and having girls in your school doesn't signal the demise of academic excellence.
Someone mentioned perception. Honestly, the perception of STA is diminshed quite a bit when we hear this nonsense about academic excellence being dependent upon maintaining single sex education and playing in Class A.
Just say "we stay in A because we want to win". People might not agree with that approach but at least it sounds reasonable. The other stuff sounds goofey.
PS. STA probably " leads the league" in kids who have left there for hockey opportunity elswhere. Seems to me the "shift in focus" ship has sailed.
Your first question: STA didn't pay for the whole arena. It is shared with the University of St. Thomas who helped fund it as well. STA provided a place to build it, this is my understanding.goldy313 wrote:Let me get this straight...
So STA doesn't want to give donors the idea that they care more about success in hockey than they do about academics but the arena was paid for almost entirely by donors? Again, what is the educational advantage an arena gives?
For what it's worth I don't believe Benilde, Cretin, Holy Angels, or Hill-Murray give anyone the impression they care more about athletics than they do about education yet they choose to play AA hockey and in Cretin's case at the top level in every sport. To the best of my knowledge they're all fine schools giving at least as good an education as Lourdes, STA, SCC, etc. that choose to stay in A hockey.
jackdaniels wrote:Dota, STA is a fine institution and I am glad it is there so people have that opton but you ned to lay off the Kool Aid.DotaDangler wrote:
Are you Joking??? Academically, Cretin is a nothing compared to STA, the only thing they care about is athletics. They used to be exactly the same as STA, but they shifted their priorities to sports and dropped the military and combined with Derham.
CDH's top students go to highly selective colleges just like STA's do. CDH does have diversity in its student body and more so than STA but you are wrong if you think a top student taking honors courses at CDH cant get at least as good an education and college options as he would get at STA.
This is also true of most public schools.
TRUE
Dropping military and having girls in your school doesn't signal the demise of academic excellence.
TRUE, BUT IT DOES MEAN YOU ARE SHIFTING PRIORITIES, FOCUS, AND TRADITION.
Someone mentioned perception. Honestly, the perception of STA is diminshed quite a bit when we hear this nonsense about academic excellence being dependent upon maintaining single sex education and playing in Class A.
MAINTAINING ACADEMICS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH STAYING IN CLASS A. WHY CAN PEOPLE NOT GRASP THIS. IS IT THAT HARD OF A CONCEPT?
Just say "we stay in A because we want to win". People might not agree with that approach but at least it sounds reasonable. The other stuff sounds goofey.
PS. STA probably " leads the league" in kids who have left there for hockey opportunity elswhere. Seems to me the "shift in focus" ship has sailed.
Sounds like a really wierd group of people to me..."Here is my money just please, please, please do not play AA hockey. It will be the end of us."karl(east) wrote:Donations to private schools come in many different forms, and with many different strings attatched. They are not all the same, nor does the school have complete control over where the money goes. Some donors do simply throw money at the school and say "use it for whatever," which the school obviously appreciates.
However, many donations do not take this form. Some are given specifically for athletics, some for a certain addition to the school, and some to reinforce part of a school's religious heritage or something like that. Heck, my college has a donor who gives money with the stipulation that it be spent on 3,000 new flower bulbs every year.
The ones that the STA administration is going to find most important are the academic-based ones, for obvious reasons. And if the people giving these ones say "STA must 'stick to its values' and not opt up," then that is exactly what the school is going to do, whether they want to or not. In effect, they can be and possibly are held hostage by these donors. They need this money to operate and can't say no. Nor should they, in my opinion. Not being allowed to play in a higher level is a minor sacrifice to pay for offering a high-quality education.
jackdaniels wrote:People need to understand that STA decision to stay at class A or move up to AA is based on "all thier sports". While some of thier teams would be competitive at AA (ie. hockey, swimming) the others would not. There are many supporters with in the hockey program who would like to see them go AA.DotaDangler wrote:
Just say "we stay in A because we want to win". People might not agree with that approach but at least it sounds reasonable. The other stuff sounds goofey..
The administration does not want the focus to be on one single sport when making this decision to move up and thier decision is based on what they feel is in the best interest of the school as a whole.