2009 advanced 15

outside_observer · Post by **outside_observer** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:48 pm

observer wrote:Not really a right or wrong, just different. I spoke with a northern parent at the Advanced 15 Festival that was really impressed with the strength and depth of the metro District teams. I was too. The four districts in the semifinals, 2, 8, 10 & 3 are all metro.

2,6,8,10 were in the semifinals.

Gretzky9 · Post by **Gretzky9** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:49 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:
Roseau did not have their team picked until Thanksgiving or a little later.
I'm not sure why this continues to get paraded out for those of us that choose not to live farther north than Montreal insinuating that kids in Rosseau don't touch the ice between Easter and Halloween.

your missing the point.
I'm not missing the point. I get that some kids don't have to work as hard as other kids. I was simply interested in the background story. There are several (maybe even many) programs that have chosen the 4 month, 2 practice, 20 game route, however, I haven't heard many (any) success stories coming from those programs. I'm interested in hearing one.

Kid from Shattuck bantam A....Noah Westphal. I believe he is from St. Peter. I have been told he basically had about 50 ice touches a year TOTAL prior to getting involved with the Wisconsin Fire and then Shattuck. Even if that number is off it goes to my original point about some good athletes being able to play at a pretty high level...and if they do put in more time they might be able to do something special. I am sure there are many other examples of this around the state but you asked for one.

auld_skool · Post by **auld_skool** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:50 pm

outside_observer wrote:
observer wrote:Not really a right or wrong, just different. I spoke with a northern parent at the Advanced 15 Festival that was really impressed with the strength and depth of the metro District teams. I was too. The four districts in the semifinals, 2, 8, 10 & 3 are all metro.
2,6,8,10 were in the semifinals.

Thats correct. 10 beat 3 in their first game.

watchdog · Post by **watchdog** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:52 pm

a born athlete may trump the kid that works hard but if their close who would you invest in?

auld_skool · Post by **auld_skool** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:54 pm

watchdog wrote:a born athlete may trump the kid that works hard but if their close who would you invest in?

That's easy...I'd take a born athlete that works hard!

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:32 pm

I know all the focus is on the top-end talent of this tournament and rightly so, but consider this. Some of these kids who were good enough to play in this tournament only play hockey maybe 4 months of the year, get 20-25 games, and only practice twice a week. Must be very good athletes to pull that off IMO. If those kids put any kind of training program together to get better over the off season (one dad told me this will be the first year his son will work on hockey throughout the spring, summer, and fall while he plays baseball and football) it will be interesting to see how they improve for next year.

Kid from Shattuck bantam A....Noah Westphal. I believe he is from St. Peter. I have been told he basically had about 50 ice touches a year TOTAL prior to getting involved with the Wisconsin Fire and then Shattuck. Even if that number is off it goes to my original point about some good athletes being able to play at a pretty high level...and if they do put in more time they might be able to do something special. I am sure there are many other examples of this around the state but you asked for one.

Which is it? Did a kid make Advanced 15s with 50 touches, and WOW how will he improve? Or did a kid make it after skating with the Fire and then at Shattuck?

Hoops · Post by **Hoops** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:27 pm

elliott70 wrote:
Hoops wrote:
panther5 wrote: It sounds as if you are judging this age level as if they are high school level players. Eventhough some have played HS and a few had very productive freshman years, the overall talent pool has just finished up their final year of bantams. These are some 240 14 to 15 yr olds. With that as your talent pool, your top 25% kids will give you more of a HS feel to the game, your middle 50% kids will be able to play with the top group but will be adjusting and the last 25% of the kids will be a bit over their head. The overall feel to the games will not give the feel of two quality HS teams going at it. But I will say that some of these teams; D2, D3, D8, D10 could have beaten the bottom 4 teams or so in the Lake this season. Next year the bar will be raised again. All of the kids will have at least one year of HS under their belt. Kids will have grown, and once you get to the final 54 you will see some pretty good hockey. When they get to be 17 many of the final 54 will be entertaining opportunities to further their hockey careers after HS. It is all a progression taking it one step at a time.
Not skating 4 lines could they have...maybe my expectations were to high...but this tourney certainly didn't have any special feeling to it..
Its not a tourney.
It is a festival.
The idea is to observe the players and with any luck choose the 100+ to move on to the next level.
It is somewhat develpmental but mostly to identify.

The tourney revenue covers costs along with the tryout and registration fee. Minn Hockey does not make money and since it does not factor admin expense into the calculation technically it loses money.

If you are lookning for high end tournaments go to the HS state, or Final Five, or Frozen four or if you are looking for excitement and joy try the bantam or peewee state tourneys.

This is a USA Hockey program to identify players, modified by MH to provide some degree of development and fun.

My bad..I thought they were observing the players and identifying during the week long tryout. Then I thought they were going to have a hockey tournament to see which district had the best team. Instead it was a shortened watered down scrimmage w/ ribbons for everyone...isn't mites/squirts over? If they would have done what I thought it would have been High end hockey....it was not.

Fire and Ice · Post by **Fire and Ice** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:00 pm

I am not sure I saw one player from any district that looked like he was "heads and tails" above the rest. The "high school guys" didn't impress me much either...for being "HS players".

Speed26 · Post by **Speed26** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:33 pm

Fire and Ice wrote:I am not sure I saw one player from any district that looked like he was "heads and tails" above the rest. The "high school guys" didn't impress me much either...for being "HS players".

who were the high school players?

Gretzky9 · Post by **Gretzky9** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:47 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:
I know all the focus is on the top-end talent of this tournament and rightly so, but consider this. Some of these kids who were good enough to play in this tournament only play hockey maybe 4 months of the year, get 20-25 games, and only practice twice a week. Must be very good athletes to pull that off IMO. If those kids put any kind of training program together to get better over the off season (one dad told me this will be the first year his son will work on hockey throughout the spring, summer, and fall while he plays baseball and football) it will be interesting to see how they improve for next year.

Kid from Shattuck bantam A....Noah Westphal. I believe he is from St. Peter. I have been told he basically had about 50 ice touches a year TOTAL prior to getting involved with the Wisconsin Fire and then Shattuck. Even if that number is off it goes to my original point about some good athletes being able to play at a pretty high level...and if they do put in more time they might be able to do something special. I am sure there are many other examples of this around the state but you asked for one.
Which is it? Did a kid make Advanced 15s with 50 touches, and WOW how will he improve? Or did a kid make it after skating with the Fire and then at Shattuck?

Kid who had 50 touches was a good enough athlete to be good enough at hockey to play on the Fire and transform that in to a spot at Shattuck. Knob! My original point....good athletes who lack the access to good coaching, ice time, etc....being able to do well. Just think if they had more opportunities. Get it

The Observer · Post by **The Observer** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:02 pm

Forwards:
Bartkowicz, Cody / Sauk Centre JV
Zuehlke, Bazil / Greenway H.S. JV
Mathews, Nick / Ely H.S. Varsity
Thompson, Alex / Duluth Denfeld JV
Johnson, Brenden / Duluth Denfeld JV
Talarico, Levi / Duluth Denfeld Varsity
Holm, Ryker / Duluth Central Varsity
Cameron Kaehler / St Francis High School Varsity
Zach Foesch / St Francis High School Varsity
Becker, Kody / Northfield HS
Sattler, Austin / St Thomas HS
McFadden, Patrick / St Thomas HS
O’Borsky, Jake / Red Wing HS
Arentz, Nate / Lakeville No HS
Osterberg, Kyle / Lakeville So HS
Commers, Andrew / St Thomas JV/V
Michaelson, AJ / Apple Valley Varsity
Torrell, Gage / Monticello High School Varsity
Isaac Gorman / AUSTIN HIGH VARSITY
Trevor Meador / HOLY ANGELS JV
Daugherty, Jeff / TOTINO GRACE JV
Andy Faust / Hill Murray Varsity/JV
Zach Lavalle / Hill Murray Varsity/JV
Andrew McDonald / Totino Grace JV
Luke Dietsch / Cretin Derham JV

Defense:
Kotter, Nate / D / Duluth East JV
Andrew Herlofsky / Hill-Murray High School JV
Jake Peterson / St Cloud Tech High School JV
Zach Foesch / St Francis High School Varsity
Skjei, Brady / Lakeville No HS
Pilot, Matt / So St Paul HS
Regan, Gunnar / Waconia Varsity
Klein, Sam / Buffalo High School Varsity
Matthew Campion / MARSHALL HIGH VARSITY
Jonah Johnson / Hill Murray Varsity/JV
Tom Abbott / St. Thomas Academy JV & V

Goalies:
Coffman, Christian / Duluth Denfeld JV
Thompson, Zach / Duluth Denfeld JV
Anders Franke / Elk River High School Varsity
Nick Malvin / Blaine High School Varsity
Kenney, Jack / Breck H.S. JV
Joseph Morris / NEW PRAGUE HIGH
VARSITY

Surprising how many kids from the "high school" level there were.

starmvp · Post by **starmvp** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:25 pm

The Observer wrote:Forwards:
Bartkowicz, Cody / Sauk Centre JV
Zuehlke, Bazil / Greenway H.S. JV
Mathews, Nick / Ely H.S. Varsity
Thompson, Alex / Duluth Denfeld JV
Johnson, Brenden / Duluth Denfeld JV
Talarico, Levi / Duluth Denfeld Varsity
Holm, Ryker / Duluth Central Varsity
Cameron Kaehler / St Francis High School Varsity
Zach Foesch / St Francis High School Varsity
Becker, Kody / Northfield HS
Sattler, Austin / St Thomas HS
McFadden, Patrick / St Thomas HS
O’Borsky, Jake / Red Wing HS
Arentz, Nate / Lakeville No HS
Osterberg, Kyle / Lakeville So HS
Commers, Andrew / St Thomas JV/V
Michaelson, AJ / Apple Valley Varsity
Torrell, Gage / Monticello High School Varsity
Isaac Gorman / AUSTIN HIGH VARSITY
Trevor Meador / HOLY ANGELS JV
Daugherty, Jeff / TOTINO GRACE JV
Andy Faust / Hill Murray Varsity/JV
Zach Lavalle / Hill Murray Varsity/JV
Andrew McDonald / Totino Grace JV
Luke Dietsch / Cretin Derham JV

Defense:
Kotter, Nate / D / Duluth East JV
Andrew Herlofsky / Hill-Murray High School JV
Jake Peterson / St Cloud Tech High School JV
Zach Foesch / St Francis High School Varsity
Skjei, Brady / Lakeville No HS
Pilot, Matt / So St Paul HS
Regan, Gunnar / Waconia Varsity
Klein, Sam / Buffalo High School Varsity
Matthew Campion / MARSHALL HIGH VARSITY
Jonah Johnson / Hill Murray Varsity/JV
Tom Abbott / St. Thomas Academy JV & V

Goalies:
Coffman, Christian / Duluth Denfeld JV
Thompson, Zach / Duluth Denfeld JV
Anders Franke / Elk River High School Varsity
Nick Malvin / Blaine High School Varsity
Kenney, Jack / Breck H.S. JV
Joseph Morris / NEW PRAGUE HIGH
VARSITY

Surprising how many kids from the "high school" level there were.

Osterberg out of Lakeville played Bantam A this year.

The Observer · Post by **The Observer** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:20 pm

My mistake, I just copied what the rosters that the festival was selling said.

jerzy3208 · Post by **jerzy3208** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:32 am

Yeah, looks like his parents wanted him to look better then he was!!! Thats Lakeville for you.

keepmeoutofit · Post by **keepmeoutofit** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:37 am

did district 4 have a hard time because of players not showing up.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:44 am

Hoops wrote:
elliott70 wrote:
Hoops wrote: Not skating 4 lines could they have...maybe my expectations were to high...but this tourney certainly didn't have any special feeling to it..
Its not a tourney.
It is a festival.
The idea is to observe the players and with any luck choose the 100+ to move on to the next level.
It is somewhat develpmental but mostly to identify.

The tourney revenue covers costs along with the tryout and registration fee. Minn Hockey does not make money and since it does not factor admin expense into the calculation technically it loses money.

If you are lookning for high end tournaments go to the HS state, or Final Five, or Frozen four or if you are looking for excitement and joy try the bantam or peewee state tourneys.

This is a USA Hockey program to identify players, modified by MH to provide some degree of development and fun.
My bad..I thought they were observing the players and identifying during the week long tryout. Then I thought they were going to have a hockey tournament to see which district had the best team. Instead it was a shortened watered down scrimmage w/ ribbons for everyone...isn't mites/squirts over? If they would have done what I thought it would have been High end hockey....it was not.

Now you have it.
The festival is for evaluating. 4 lines, 6 D, goalies play even. Less penalties (I am sure someone had to notice that), no power play/penalty kill units, equal time for everyone.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:45 am

Kid who had 50 touches was a good enough athlete to be good enough at hockey to play on the Fire and transform that in to a spot at Shattuck. Knob! My original point....good athletes who lack the access to good coaching, ice time, etc....being able to do well. Just think if they had more opportunities. Get it

Part of the beauty of the forum is that you get to spout off anonymously about anonymous kids playing on anonymous teams. Periodically comments are made about anonymous kids that put away their skates and sticks in February and don't pick them back up again until October - and boy! are they better hockey players for it. I am skeptical that a kid practiced twice a week then stepped onto the ice to make an Advanced team, even at the district level. You indicated that you had spoken with several sets of parents where this was in fact the case. However, your example indicated a kid that played with the Fire for an undisclosed number of years before playing at Shattuck - that is an example of a kid that has played a LOT of hockey the last few years. I still don't see the example of the 15 year old athlete that just skates out and kicks the butts of the other kids who work hard at improving in the off-season. I guess that makes me a knob.

Hoops · Post by **Hoops** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:07 am

elliott70 wrote:
Hoops wrote:
elliott70 wrote: Its not a tourney.
It is a festival.
The idea is to observe the players and with any luck choose the 100+ to move on to the next level.
It is somewhat develpmental but mostly to identify.

The tourney revenue covers costs along with the tryout and registration fee. Minn Hockey does not make money and since it does not factor admin expense into the calculation technically it loses money.

If you are lookning for high end tournaments go to the HS state, or Final Five, or Frozen four or if you are looking for excitement and joy try the bantam or peewee state tourneys.

This is a USA Hockey program to identify players, modified by MH to provide some degree of development and fun.
My bad..I thought they were observing the players and identifying during the week long tryout. Then I thought they were going to have a hockey tournament to see which district had the best team. Instead it was a shortened watered down scrimmage w/ ribbons for everyone...isn't mites/squirts over? If they would have done what I thought it would have been High end hockey....it was not.
Now you have it.
The festival is for evaluating. 4 lines, 6 D, goalies play even. Less penalties (I am sure someone had to notice that), no power play/penalty kill units, equal time for everyone.

squirts

Hoops · Post by **Hoops** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

The Observer wrote:Forwards:
Bartkowicz, Cody / Sauk Centre JV
Zuehlke, Bazil / Greenway H.S. JV
Mathews, Nick / Ely H.S. Varsity
Thompson, Alex / Duluth Denfeld JV
Johnson, Brenden / Duluth Denfeld JV
Talarico, Levi / Duluth Denfeld Varsity
Holm, Ryker / Duluth Central Varsity
Cameron Kaehler / St Francis High School Varsity
Zach Foesch / St Francis High School Varsity
Becker, Kody / Northfield HS
Sattler, Austin / St Thomas HS
McFadden, Patrick / St Thomas HS
O’Borsky, Jake / Red Wing HS
Arentz, Nate / Lakeville No HS
Osterberg, Kyle / Lakeville So HS
Commers, Andrew / St Thomas JV/V
Michaelson, AJ / Apple Valley Varsity
Torrell, Gage / Monticello High School Varsity
Isaac Gorman / AUSTIN HIGH VARSITY
Trevor Meador / HOLY ANGELS JV
Daugherty, Jeff / TOTINO GRACE JV
Andy Faust / Hill Murray Varsity/JV
Zach Lavalle / Hill Murray Varsity/JV
Andrew McDonald / Totino Grace JV
Luke Dietsch / Cretin Derham JV

Defense:
Kotter, Nate / D / Duluth East JV
Andrew Herlofsky / Hill-Murray High School JV
Jake Peterson / St Cloud Tech High School JV
Zach Foesch / St Francis High School Varsity
Skjei, Brady / Lakeville No HS
Pilot, Matt / So St Paul HS
Regan, Gunnar / Waconia Varsity
Klein, Sam / Buffalo High School Varsity
Matthew Campion / MARSHALL HIGH VARSITY
Jonah Johnson / Hill Murray Varsity/JV
Tom Abbott / St. Thomas Academy JV & V

Goalies:
Coffman, Christian / Duluth Denfeld JV
Thompson, Zach / Duluth Denfeld JV
Anders Franke / Elk River High School Varsity
Nick Malvin / Blaine High School Varsity
Kenney, Jack / Breck H.S. JV
Joseph Morris / NEW PRAGUE HIGH
VARSITY

Surprising how many kids from the "high school" level there were.

Are these all the kids that go to St.Cloud? No Wayzate kids? Besse? I assume I'm missing something..

surehockey · Post by **surehockey** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:29 am

I think those are just the kids who played HS this last season...not the kids that made the team...it is my understanding that they are supposed to be notified by mail and recieve letters today

Hoops · Post by **Hoops** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:32 am

surehockey wrote:I think those are just the kids who played HS this last season...not the kids that made the team...it is my understanding that they are supposed to be notified by mail and recieve letters today

Got ya! Thanks.

auld_skool · Post by **auld_skool** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:44 am

elliott70 wrote:
Now you have it.
The festival is for evaluating. 4 lines, 6 D, goalies play even. Less penalties (I am sure someone had to notice that), no power play/penalty kill units, equal time for everyone.

elliott,
Although I repsect you and what you contribute to youth hockey, I will tell you that not ALL of the coaches followed those guidelines. But again, thanks for your efforts on behalf of the kids of MN!

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:24 pm

auld_skool wrote:
elliott70 wrote:
Now you have it.
The festival is for evaluating. 4 lines, 6 D, goalies play even. Less penalties (I am sure someone had to notice that), no power play/penalty kill units, equal time for everyone.
elliott,
Although I repsect you and what you contribute to youth hockey, I will tell you that not ALL of the coaches followed those guidelines. But again, thanks for your efforts on behalf of the kids of MN!

Yes, I know.
That causes problems between teams and for the evaluators.
We dealt with a team from the north at a different level last year.
The problem was fixed - problem is that these guys are very competitive and the problem will arise again.

I told the other TTA-VIP's at the meeting that we should be at the New Hope rink - at least for a while last weekend, but nope, we had important things to do.

I thought making ourselves available for comment, criticism would be healthy. I did spend about an hour and a half there.
John Perry and Dennis Bushy and Rich Rakness were there for some of it.

Gretzky9 · Post by **Gretzky9** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:42 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:
Kid who had 50 touches was a good enough athlete to be good enough at hockey to play on the Fire and transform that in to a spot at Shattuck. Knob! My original point....good athletes who lack the access to good coaching, ice time, etc....being able to do well. Just think if they had more opportunities. Get it
Part of the beauty of the forum is that you get to spout off anonymously about anonymous kids playing on anonymous teams. Periodically comments are made about anonymous kids that put away their skates and sticks in February and don't pick them back up again until October - and boy! are they better hockey players for it. I am skeptical that a kid practiced twice a week then stepped onto the ice to make an Advanced team, even at the district level. You indicated that you had spoken with several sets of parents where this was in fact the case. However, your example indicated a kid that played with the Fire for an undisclosed

number of years before playing at Shattuck - that is an example of a kid that has played a LOT of hockey the last few years. I still don't see the example of the 15 year old athlete that just skates out and kicks the butts of the other kids who work hard at improving in the off-season. I guess that makes me a knob.

No Montoya...what makes you a knob is a) your lack of knowledge about the amount of ice touches for most of the successful programs/kids in comparison to those associations/kids who don't....but are still good enough athletes to make a team like the Fire or Advanced 15's, and b) your lack of taking an example (which you asked for) and saying "oh, I see".
If you need other examples take two other kids from St. Peter who made the D4 squad....one of the parents I talked to was a dad and he said flat out.....no preseason warm up prior to tryouts. Their team played 25 games max and they were lucky to get two practices a week. Those two kids were not high end kids but I was impressed with their ability and knowledge for the game relative to what they have been exposed to......thus, must be pretty good athletes.

dingle · Post by **dingle** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:07 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:
Quote:
Kid who had 50 touches was a good enough athlete to be good enough at hockey to play on the Fire and transform that in to a spot at Shattuck. Knob! My original point....good athletes who lack the access to good coaching, ice time, etc....being able to do well. Just think if they had more opportunities. Get it

Part of the beauty of the forum is that you get to spout off anonymously about anonymous kids playing on anonymous teams. Periodically comments are made about anonymous kids that put away their skates and sticks in February and don't pick them back up again until October - and boy! are they better hockey players for it. I am skeptical that a kid practiced twice a week then stepped onto the ice to make an Advanced team, even at the district level. You indicated that you had spoken with several sets of parents where this was in fact the case. However, your example indicated a kid that played with the Fire for an undisclosed

number of years before playing at Shattuck - that is an example of a kid that has played a LOT of hockey the last few years. I still don't see the example of the 15 year old athlete that just skates out and kicks the butts of the other kids who work hard at improving in the off-season. I guess that makes me a knob.

No Montoya...what makes you a knob is a) your lack of knowledge about the amount of ice touches for most of the successful programs/kids in comparison to those associations/kids who don't....but are still good enough athletes to make a team like the Fire or Advanced 15's, and b) your lack of taking an example (which you asked for) and saying "oh, I see".
If you need other examples take two other kids from St. Peter who made the D4 squad....one of the parents I talked to was a dad and he said flat out.....no preseason warm up prior to tryouts. Their team played 25 games max and they were lucky to get two practices a week. Those two kids were not high end kids but I was impressed with their ability and knowledge for the game relative to what they have been exposed to......thus, must be pretty good athletes.

The player that you gave as an example that only plays for 4 months of the year is not quite correct. He played 5 summer worth of hockey, 2 years blades, 2 years stars, one year ice hawks.