Is the time coming where kids don't play winter hockey?

[mnhcp]

According to USA Hockey, what are the reasons the 13 year old gives as to why it's not fun?

Forgive as I don't remember which issue or whatever but about a year ago I remember reading an article (I think it was USA Hockey magazine) and they were talking about reasons kids quit playing orgainized hockey and they talked about the biggest attrition rate being in the 12-13 age categories. One of (not the only but one of) the big reasons they discussed was that this was the age checking/hitting is introduced into the game and there are apparently ALOT of kids who do not liek this aspect of the gaem once it's introduced. They love mite and squirt hockey and they love watching college and NHL hockey on TV and I suspect they know on some level they will be involved in checking at some point but I don't think they fully comprehend or know what it is and then all of a sudden they are a Pee Wee and some big kid puts a big check on them and that is it, the game they thought they loved suddenly became something completely different and they don't like it anymore so they find something else they do like. I remember the article mentioned other reasons (I don;t remember any percentages or anything) but this particular reason really stuck with me as far as rememebring it, as I thought it was interesting and made some reasonable sense as far as the timing and the big change etc.....

Let's not forget, kids start quitting "ALL" sports at these ages. This isn't just a hockey thing.

[auld_skool]

The list of things that change when they get to that age is very long. It's not specific to hockey or sports in general. And the list of real reasons behind "it's not fun" is even longer.

[Hoops]

The list of things that change when they get to that age is very long. It's not specific to hockey or sports in general. And the list of real reasons behind "it's not fun" is even longer.

By 12-13 most are able to read the writing on the wall. If they are good enough...time, money, checking etc become non factors.

[trippedovertheblueline]

According to USA Hockey, what are the reasons the 13 year old gives as to why it's not fun?

Forgive as I don't remember which issue or whatever but about a year ago I remember reading an article (I think it was USA Hockey magazine) and they were talking about reasons kids quit playing orgainized hockey and they talked about the biggest attrition rate being in the 12-13 age categories. One of (not the only but one of) the big reasons they discussed was that this was the age checking/hitting is introduced into the game and there are apparently ALOT of kids who do not liek this aspect of the gaem once it's introduced. They love mite and squirt hockey and they love watching college and NHL hockey on TV and I suspect they know on some level they will be involved in checking at some point but I don't think they fully comprehend or know what it is and then all of a sudden they are a Pee Wee and some big kid puts a big check on them and that is it, the game they thought they loved suddenly became something completely different and they don't like it anymore so they find something else they do like. I remember the article mentioned other reasons (I don;t remember any percentages or anything) but this particular reason really stuck with me as far as rememebring it, as I thought it was interesting and made some reasonable sense as far as the timing and the big change etc.....

Let's not forget, kids start quitting "ALL" sports at these ages. This isn't just a hockey thing.

Can MN Hockey do anything to retain more of their players as they enter peewees/bantam age?

[InigoMontoya]

MN Hockey established HEP

[royals dad]

The study I am aware of is out of Michigan State University they have a group that studies youth athletics. It was not specific to hockey, I believe USA Hockey did some research around the topic as well and had sited there numbers in a few articles. MSU had the drop out rate at 70% in or around age 13, from what I recall the USA Hockey number was closer to 58%. I found the full text of the MSU study in a data base at a Hennepin county library (if you google it you will see it sited frequently in articles but probably not the full text). I think I have the USA hockey info in my big box of hockey coaching stuff, if I get a chance I will try and dig it out.

Both the study and the USA Hockey article seemed to link the "it isn't fun anymore" reason more directly to burn out and parental pressure than physical contact or physical ability. IMO it is a combination of a lot of factors including coming of age and making their own decisions. I personally think there is something to the idea that there can be to much of a good thing (I can't even get a tiny smell of tequila since I was a sophomore in college). Not sure about that guys book as I didn't read it but the article I thought hit the way I feel about best is http://www.parenthood.com/article-topic ... sport.html .

Again my whole point was that I hope people are sticking with association hockey in the winter, I have been around some youth hockey out east Mass, RI, NY, and Jersey and I believe we have the best system in the country here in MN.

[play4fun]

Good article Royals Dad. Thanks.

For me it's Southern Comfort. To this day.

[DMom]

Hockeydad I know you may find this hard to believe but I think the majority of us do think you are "overzealous". Kids love playing hockey with their buddies especially when they are ONLY 5 years old and in Mites. They don't want to drive all over town to play with kids they don't know so their parents can feel like they are on the best team (read "bragging rights"). There has been a lot of wisdom shared in this thread, but as I'm learning with the new breed of young hockey dads, it falls on deaf ears. You really should consider listening to the wealth of experience on this board. We've been down the path - you haven't.

Association hockey is great - if yours is "messed up" (hard to believe at the Mite level), then get involved and make it better or quit complaining. At the rate you're going, my bet is your kid may not make it to HS without hanging up the skates. Let them have fun, learn to love the game playing with their buddies. It gets crazy soon enough. You're going to burn yourself and your sons out before your little 5 yr old hits second year Squirts.

You assume that parents and players that have issues with their local associations haven't tried to make it a better experience. Our association is BEYOND screwed up. I have put forth MUCH effort to turn things around for the better (been a board member, coach, etc.) and still the wheels keep spinning without gaining any traction,

My older son (14 years old) looks forward to summer hockey more than he does to winter hockey. He likes his buddies that he plays association hockey with, but he has much more fun playing on the more skilled summer teams...that's his competitive nature.

There absolutely nothing wrong with playing hockey year round if that's what the kid wants to do. Basketball and soccer are both played year round, why should it be different for hockey? I hear people say that kids should quit playing hockey in the summer for fear of "burn-out"....do these people also think that basketball players shouldn't be shooting hoops in the summer? Of course not.

I've been involved in summer AAA hockey for going on 10 years now, and contrary to the stereotypes, I have met very few people who think there kid is the next Gretzky or Crosby. Most parents just want a good experience for their kids.

Be careful or you will earn the coveted "Overzealous" label.

I have to sit back and chuckle. I have witnessed parents screaming at their kids, the coaches, the refs, and other parents. I have talked to parents that had their kids on regimens that make Michael Phelps look like a wimp. I thought they were overzealous.

I have consistently stated that I am not interested in trying to develop the next superstar. I have however stated time and time again that all I want is the best experience for my child who has shown a love for the sport and an desire to work hard. I have stated that I think it would be nice for my younger kid to be able to learn some team play this year. I also said that I thought trying to teach advanced concepts to a kid 5 minutes before a game seemed ludicrious to me. Yes, I have complained about the way our association handles the mite program, but I have also said that I am working hard with other folks to turn it around. Oh and I asked a general question about helmet painting. Just because I was curious.

What I get is all of these sage old advisors, trying to get into my head and labeling me an overzealous parent who will ultimately destroy my child with my desire to have him be the first kid to go straight from Peewees to the NHL.

Unreal.

Could be worse they could call you Boogie/ChanMan/Quack/Slasher/HD41???

[iwearmysunglassesatnight]

What I get is all of these sage old advisors, trying to get into my head and [b]labeling me an overzealous parent who will ultimately destroy my child with my desire[/b] to have him be the first kid to go straight from Peewees to the NHL.

Unreal.[/quote]

Could be worse they could call you Boogie/ChanMan/Quack/Slasher/HD41???[/quote]

now referred to as GDAHL

[greybeard58]

USA Hockey had a track on a certain birth year, it should be some where on their web site. I did see the numbers about 2 years ago. Their numbers showed a big drop off in numbers after the Bantam age and as Minnesota High schools do not register with USA Hockey that is expected. The other noticeable drop off was at the 12 year old level. I wish I had saved the link or at least the file.

[JSR]

According to USA Hockey age 13 is the real tipping point, we loose over half of the participants around that age, as previously stated the overwhelming number 1 reason is that it isn't fun any more.

One of (not the only but one of) the big reasons they discussed was that this was the age checking/hitting is introduced into the game and there are apparently ALOT of kids who do not liek this aspect of the gaem once it's introduced.

Thanks, JSR.

I can see where that wouldn't be fun anymore, but I would hardly categorize that as 'burnout'.

Hopefully more information will be put forward regarding this oft quoted reason for the downfall of youth hockey (in fact, our youth in general). I found a dozen articles that included interviews with local families and statements such as 'studies show' - most were connected in some capacity to a guy selling a book. I did not, however, find ANYTHING that referenced a specific study. Perhaps this would be better in a new thread.

I agree, that is why I put my two cents in that I think there are several reasons (besides burnout) that lead to kids quiting. I do believe burnout exists but sometimes I wonder if it is over dramatized a bit.

[jancze5]

SO

let me go back to my original question...is the time coming where kids are playing year round sports and hockey becomes the summer or spring sport instead of winter?

[InigoMontoya]

The answer to your question is: there are already kids who do not skate with their community association during the winter; they may pick up a 3-on-3 league and a couple winter break camps, then skate in the spring summer and fall.

[InigoMontoya]

http://www.educ.msu.edu/ysi/articles/CT ... Papers.pdf

Institute for the Study of Youth Sports at MSU research article offering a summary of many studies done on the topic - this is the "no fun" source that so many quote. Page 21 begins the discussion of dropout. I don't see the same conclusions made by many that quote this research actually in this research - I see many additional questions being asked.

I enjoyed the article on the link RD included, but a big question stuck out to me. "So when should your determined little athlete be allowed to focus exclusively on one sport to the exclusion of others? Not before ages 12 or 13." was followed a couple paragraphs later by ""I've seen some kids, anywhere from 13 to 16, quit a sport they were actually fairly good at and had been playing for years, and they'll say, 'It's not fun anymore,'" Is it not fun in relation to the sport in which they have chosen to specialize?

[council member retired]

I would guess the answer is when it isn't fun. Many times a teenager that is not playing with their peers, stops having fun. So they quit.

[HockeyDad41]

del

[Doglover]

HDad41 I think Bernie's Choice League would be the perfect fit for you. I know you were looking for info on it and I for one would whole heartedly recommend it for your young boys. You would find many like-minded parents at MM and can pay all the $$ you want to develop your future NHL star. Remember, hockey players are "made" not born. I say go for it and maybe by the time Johnny is 6, your association may have figured out how to run a competitive Mite league. If not, Bernie would be happy to continue to collect your $$ until your boys are through Squirts and then they could come back and play with their buddies. Heck, by then (another 5 years) Bernie may have his school running, a third sheet of ice and be offering a "real" AAA team like Shattuck at the Peewee level or have taken over all the Fire teams and you can drive to Somerset for your boys to play PW's. There are just so many great choices!!

[northwoods oldtimer]

Association Hockey has done a great job in developing very good hockey players in the state of Minnesota. Even with the nonsense that comes out of USA hockey they still manage to generate a very large pool of good players year in and year out. I look at the pool of 91, 92 and 93 players around the state and marvel at how far the development of players has come, it is indeed amazing. The sad thing that is occuring each and every year is the loss of great coaches in the ranks of pee wee and bantam levels. I am not certain why the attrition but would speculate the cultural change has something to do with it. Back when I was a kid you just did not have parents monitoring practices and games. Rarely did they come at all except to occasionally drop off or pick up. Outside games and practice were left to the coahces and the kids and no dinner talk involved the coach, other players, etc. that would have been considered pretty much nonsense. Now still today the operation of the Association is to provide youth a place to play and develop and they still do a great job of that despite a great loss of good coaches. The current day issues and challenges tend to boil down to the over the top parent who manages to only see the one kid and at times stops at nothing in zealous pursuit of correcting percieved wrong doing(at time factual). It is a tough challenge to deal with at times for the Associations, seeing as they are designed and set up for the overal development of (sometimes very large number) kids. The expectation placed upon the volunteer coach, manager, board member is strenuous at best in the new culture. The expectation has changed greatly to what is best for the individual and team hockey has diminshed greatly since that change has taken place. There are exceptions to that by very few and getting to be fewer with the loss of great coaches.

[HockeyDad41]

del

[mn man]

Maybe if enough kids start looking for alternative programs the associations that are leaking kids will tighten up and resolve whatever issues are driving their kids away. Just my take.

I don't believe that associations are driving kids away, maybe they are drving the parents away, but at that point you have to ask yourself what is the purpose for the association. As was mentioned before, it is to provide a large number of kids the best chance to play competitive hockey at a level that is fun and productive for them. In Minnesota we are fortunate to have many associations that can field teams that create good competition at the top level. AAA in the summer is a way to get more of that top level competitive hockey in the off season. A reason to play AAA during the winter is to provide the parents a perception of a level of control that they feel they would not have in the association.

[HockeyDad41]

del

[Terry.Moore]

I find this conversation interesting. It highlights one conflict faced by outliers. As the outlier parent pushes his kids as hard as they dare to develop them (in hockey, music or whatever) the mainstream parent pushes against the outlier parent, claiming that the outlier is wrecking his kid. Meanwhile, at the young ages, the outlier kid has more success because he is being pushed harder and burnout/rebellion are still years away.

This is pure conjecture, but I think the following things are true:

1. Although very few of the mite/squirt outliers will ever play D1 hockey, most D1 hockey players were outliers at some age.

2. Chasing D1 for its own sake is probably a waste of resources, but if you want to play D1 hockey, the player (not the dad) needs to commit to the chase at some point.

3. Athough most mite/squirt outliers will not reach D1, very few will be ruined by their outlier experience. Most will go on to lives in the mainstream that are reasonably happy and productive. Some will coach mite hockey eventually.

[cooper26]

Can anyone give us a comprehensive definition of "outlier" as it's being used in these threads?

- more than a bit confusing at times.

[observer]

Yeah, I even went to Websters and it doesn't make sense as it's currently being used by Mr. Moore. Is Lakeville an outlier community? Bad use of the word regardless.

[sorno82]

Outlier is a term that means in this case, athletes who are above and beyond the norm. It is a statistical term that infers the data point is so far out of the norm, there must be a special cause that created it. For example, what make Alexander Ovechkin so much better than the 100's of other kids that went through the same development path at his Russian Hockey School.

You can have an outlier at an early age, that does not maintain that status through maturity, or conversly, you may have an average kid who becomes exceptional at maturity.