2009 advanced 15

[InigoMontoya]

The common denominator among all 28 kids must be that they hang up their skates in March and go fishing all summer.

[Hoops]

The common denominator among all 28 kids must be that they hang up their skates in March and go fishing all summer.

Or they are definitely at the top end of their age bracket in something and have been fortunate enough to pass an inspection process and be invited to an event that will count as a lifetime summertime experience.

[dumbpuck]

Well said HOOPS!

I bet these kids would rather have a Hockey stick in their hands than a rod any day! They are most likely dedicated and gifted kids. They will have plenty of time to fish when they are done with sports- which will be in just a few years for the majority of all of them!

Congrats to them and their parents for their dedication!

[frederick61]

I watched the Little Falls/Roseau East Regional final game in Brainerd in 2008. I then saw them play in the State Tourney in Willmar. Little Falls had a great team powered by two strong defensemen, #8 and #19. They had excellent goal tending in #30. Their next best players were #17 and one of the girls (#14, I think). Somewhere after that was #15 whose play I would describe as workman like.

That was 15 months ago and #15’s progression to one of the top players in the state makes my point. Unless he found a place to skate in the Little Falls area in the summer (which I doubt), his only chance to improve in those 15 months was during the regular Bantam A season. For the Flyer’s Bantam A, they played only 34 regular season games (as compared to a city team that plays 50 regular season games) and 6 tourney games. The Flyers were soundly trounced in the regional failing to score a single goal in three games. So with only a short single Bantam A season, #15 goes out and earns a spot on team that features the top 20 kids of his age in the State of Hockey.

Surely he must not have been in awe of all the talent laden, year round playing, AAA trained kids he was playing against in tryouts. So how does a kid go from a modest role player on a good peewee A team to be among the best in state in 15 months. My guess is he grew and matured and connected the dots in his play. He found his game and found he could.

On the other hand, someone may post something that said he spent the last year under tutelage of “the Great One” and I would stand corrected. But I believe and hope for all the other kids who just need to grow, that he didn’t. His story is what makes Minnesota Hockey.

[observer]

Or not. I'll guess there are 30 94 players better than him not going to NY. Good for him as it's not an easy process and he showed when and what he needed to. But, I doubt he's telling anyone he thinks he's truly one of the top 11 94 forwards in the state. I don't know this individual player well but he's probably put on a bit of a humble front. Something we've heard other years is they can select raw, athletically or genetically gifted, players. Maybe not the best "skills" today. I think they do less of that as the pool is way deeper today than 10 years ago. Cute story but a little over romanticized.

[cooper26]

Or not. I'll guess there are 30 94 players better than him not going to NY. Good for him as it's not an easy process and he showed when and what he needed to. But, I doubt he's telling anyone he thinks he's truly one of the top 11 94 forwards in the state. I don't know this individual player well but he's probably put on a bit of a humble front. Something we've heard other years is they can select raw, athletically or genetically gifted, players. Maybe not the best "skills" today. I think they do less of that as the pool is way deeper today than 10 years ago. Cute story but a little over romanticized.

I agree with all of that. There is no "perfect system" to choose all the best players. Never has been. Never will be. Minnesota Hockey's advanced program is as good as any and very well run, but they are not "all" there.

Some kids fish and play baseball all summer and they still do well. Good for them and good for MN hockey to ignore the hype surrounding some of these other players and just let the process play out.

Congrats to the kid! - (whether he fishes or not).

[darth sidious]

As people discuss the advanced 15 process, consider the fact that this is not the same as the regular season. Players are pulled away from their winter teams and systems they use to win games. In the advanced program players are evaluated on their individual talent and how well they can play with other teamates that they are unfamiliar with. Less systems where more creativity and individual talent is exposed.

Every player had the same opportunity to impress the judges at the district level, the spring tournament in New Hope and in St. Cloud. My opinion is that the player that made it to New York simply had the best showing. It doesn't mean that they are significantly more talented than a player that did not make it, but rather they had a better showing at the time.

I watched many games in St. Cloud and the talent from top to bottom was fantastic. Every player there should be proud of their accomplishment. It takes a lot of skill an talent to get to St. Cloud.

[AvsFan]

mbo99
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:40 am Post subject:
observer wrote:
Interesting. All metro team.


It is interesting.

But, having watched many of the games, it was apparent to me that there just weren't many stand-outs there who came from up north.

If outstate players are under-represented or if people believe there is some big conspiracy to keep them out, whatever caused it took place before this past week in St. Cloud.

There will always be the bubble kids you wonder about, but the choices the evaluators made look pretty solid to me. (and no, my kid is not going to NY).In reply to Jimbo99 post

Of the six Shattuck players that where selected to St Cloud only one made it to nationals, yet three players from Lakeville and Hill Murry JV made it ! With the talent on the Shattuck tier 1 team and the fact they finished the season ranked 4th, not in Minnesota, but the nation, I have a real hard time believing that this is indeed the case. Sure theres no perfect way to do this, but on the showing those kids had at St Cloud I have a hard time buying into that every player gets the same look at if you are not from Minnesota. [/quote]

[54fighting]

Avsfan,
The Shattuck Tier 1 team was a bantam team. They had a good record against bantam teams in MN but they did get beat also. The kids that made it from Hill-Murray played HS hockey. Big difference. Same with 2 of the kids from Lakeville. The best couple of kids from the Shattuck team did not even tryout in MN. Add that to the fact that the Montgomery kid was injured and did not participate, the only kid from Shattuck that stood out in St Cloud made the team. If there was going to be a bias agianst a group of kids you would think it would have been against the kids that left MN hockey to play with the Fire. Still 5 of those kids were selected. To me that alone proves that they did their best to set aside personal feelings and took the kids who earned a spot.

[rudy]

In support of 54fighting: another Shattuck kid got hurt on the first day and had to drop out. He looked like he was one of the top 2 D on his roster.

In sum, i would not use the selections out of St. Cloud as any measure of shortcomings among the Shattuck Bantam players.

Signed,
Someone-who-has-no-connection-to-Shattuck

[Jimbo99]

mbo99
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:40 am Post subject:
observer wrote:
Interesting. All metro team.


It is interesting.

But, having watched many of the games, it was apparent to me that there just weren't many stand-outs there who came from up north.

If outstate players are under-represented or if people believe there is some big conspiracy to keep them out, whatever caused it took place before this past week in St. Cloud.

There will always be the bubble kids you wonder about, but the choices the evaluators made look pretty solid to me. (and no, my kid is not going to NY).In reply to Jimbo99 post

Of the six Shattuck players that where selected to St Cloud only one made it to nationals, yet three players from Lakeville and Hill Murry JV made it ! With the talent on the Shattuck tier 1 team and the fact they finished the season ranked 4th, not in Minnesota, but the nation, I have a real hard time believing that this is indeed the case. Sure theres no perfect way to do this, but on the showing those kids had at St Cloud I have a hard time buying into that every player gets the same look at if you are not from Minnesota.

[/quote]

Darth, 54f, & Rudy are all correct. That's how I saw it also.

[Tenoverpar]

SSM vs Minnesota (according to the ssm schedule)

17-3-1


What I'm curious about in these selections, how many of these kids play on summer AAA teams and how many don't do anything after the season...anyone have that list or knowledge?

[outside_observer]

I know that there are a lot of naysayers to Fire hockey, but it should be noted that 6 of the kids from the 1994 Fire Hockey club made the national team and will be heading to New York in July. They are:

Anders Franke
Andy Herlofsky
Jake Horton
Jordan Jancze
Jonah Johnson
Zach Stepan

I bet if you asked any one of these kids about their experience with Fire Hockey, you'd hear nothing but positive remarks and, in addition, would contribute their success to this program and their coach.

Just thought it was worth pointing out.

Did I miss something??
I didn't see Stepan on any of the lists or at any tryout.

[Night Train]

He's from Wisconsin so must have made the WI team.

[Iceburg]

Did I miss something??
I didn't see Stepan on any of the lists or at any tryout.

He qualified through the Central District

LINK

[old time eddie shore]

Sure theres no perfect way to do this, but on the showing those kids had at St Cloud I have a hard time buying into that every player gets the same look at if you are not from Minnesota.

[/quote]

AvsFan,

I got to see almost every game up in Saint Cloud. As far as Shattuck kids went, Montgomery was a lock had he not been injured. Jancze played good and deserved to be there. McQueen smashed his knee and was out after a couple of games. The other two didn't impress to the point that they deserved a spot.

When I compare the final list of skaters to the checkmarks I made while watching, they were 95%+ right on on their choices. That's pretty good and no Shattuck kids were slighted from what I saw.

Goalies are a whole different ball game. There were three goalies with 'resumes/reputations' that came to the camp. Those three made the team or alternate spots - but in my opinion there were four goalies that outperformed the 'resumed' players. One of these four was the Shattuck goalie who had a very good camp. Unfortunately, when you bring 12 very good goalies together, and the unknowns rise to the top, in tryouts whether it is the NHL, College, High School, or even association hockey, the evaluators often revert back to resumes/reputations while putting the unknowns on their future 'watch list'. That's how goalie tryouts work and it should put fire in the bellies of those that got cut to work harder, further develop their resumes/reputations, and show up to make a spot on the Advanced 16 teams.

With goalies, its kind of like an IT guy at a major corporation in the 90's. Yes Apple had a better product, but every IT manager chose IBM because they wouldn't get fired for making the choice - even if the system was inferior or didn't perform. Same applies with goalies....is the goalie that played outstanding with no reputation a flash in the pan....or the real deal? What is the safest bet in selecting a goalie? I am not saying this is right....but it is how goalie selection works.

I don't think the Shattuck goalie (from Colorado...hmmm...AvsFan...) didn't get a look by evaluators in Saint Cloud. He got the same look as the three other unknowns that performed well in Saint Cloud did and the Shattuck name was not enough to propel his resume/reputation above those that made the team.

[D6Rocks]

Umm Apple did not have a better product for business applications. So your comparison is lame.

And why would a kid who is not a resident of the state, get an equal chance to make Team Minnesota?? (just because he lives in Fairbault and goes to school there does not make him a resident, he is a minor. Where do his parents live??)

[observer]

I believe out of state Shattuck students are allowed to try out in Minnesota because they're still in school during the time the tryouts occur.

[mnhkylvr]

It would be interesting to see from previous years how much turnover there is with the final team from 15's to 16's to 17's. I would have to believe one of you stat lovers has this to share?

[dingle]

The little falls player that was talked about earlier, he was rostered on a 1994 minnesota lightning team last summer, the coach also coaches the 95 blades team.

[ice11]

Observer - no offense, but you are mistaken with the rule. Shattuck kids are allowed to tryout IF they are residents of MN and tryout in the district of their HOME address. Kids that don't have a MN residence (school address doesn't count) cannot try out. The goalie in question IS a resident of Disctrict 4, where he tried out and his parents LIVE in District 4 (at least one of his parents works in District 4 as well). The Shattuck kids that reside in Minnesota year round have the same rules as all of the other MN players when trying out for the Advance teams.

[InigoMontoya]

Unless he found a place to skate in the Little Falls area in the summer (which I doubt), his only chance to improve in those 15 months was during the regular Bantam A season. For the Flyer’s Bantam A, they played only 34 regular season games (as compared to a city team that plays 50 regular season games) and 6 tourney games.

The little falls player that was talked about earlier, he was rostered on a 1994 minnesota lightning team last summer, the coach also coaches the 95 blades team.

I guess we're still looking for that elusive example of the kid who recently achieved elite status in Minnesota Hockey by taking the summer off rather than working hard on his game during the off season.

[3GoonsWest]

I guess we're still looking for that elusive example of the kid who recently achieved elite status in Minnesota Hockey by taking the summer off rather than working hard on his game during the off season.

Bigfoot theory-- You hear a lot about it, but never actually see it.

[hockeyman84]

Unless he found a place to skate in the Little Falls area in the summer (which I doubt), his only chance to improve in those 15 months was during the regular Bantam A season. For the Flyer’s Bantam A, they played only 34 regular season games (as compared to a city team that plays 50 regular season games) and 6 tourney games.

The little falls player that was talked about earlier, he was rostered on a 1994 minnesota lightning team last summer, the coach also coaches the 95 blades team.

I guess we're still looking for that elusive example of the kid who recently achieved elite status in Minnesota Hockey by taking the summer off rather than working hard on his game during the off season.

Yes Ben was on the 94 lightning coached by Scott Steffen he has a real head for the game and truly deserves to be in rochester.

[InigoMontoya]

I'm sure he's very talented and a great kid. My post wasn't doubting his ability or the recognition he deserves. It was skeptical to the rhetoric regarding spring, summer, and fall vacation from hockey.

An outstate high school team scrimmaged another high school team last week and just got destroyed - ankles wobbling coming off the bench, inability to handle the puck for three strides, and playing with their heads down so much it was a miracle none of them got hurt. Big disapointment for the parents, as the team came off of a pretty successful season last year. The team graduated seniors that played some hockey in the spring and fall (and baseball, football, tennis, golf, etc.); this year it is the poster child of MNH's non-stop campaign for the OFF-season. The association and closely related high school program have swallowed that concept hook, line, and sinker (to ironically use a fishing analogy).

The kids and parents are hammered against, not only playing AAA hockey, but against going to camps out of town or playing 10 games together in the spring or fall. There is no short supply of quotes from HT and a worshiped college coach that are used to support the point. The youth hockey banners quit being hung in the arena many years ago - all but one age group finished last or second to last in a less than stellar district.

I fully understand the push back against stealing a kid's childhood by locking him away, pushing him and training him like Drago for some evil purpose. However, it is irresponsible of MNH to react in a knee-jerk manner in response to the behavior of a few (or even a few hundred) by publishing anti-offseason propaganda to more than 40,000 participants, a vast majority of whom were not even close to the behavior they were addressing.