Our municipality is balking at outdoor ice, citing budget cuts. The city water used to make the ice doesn't really cost much of anything. The fire department donates the equipment. The hockey parents donate the shoveling and flooding time. The recommendation was made that the warming house is not opened with a high school kid making $5/hour. The city continues to cling to insurance cost as the reason for zero outdoor ice. Does anyone know how much, if any, additional insurance cost the city realizes if it floods a park v. if it does not?
(Thought it might be nice to discuss something else for a while. I can't believe I long for Best Pretzel With Cheese.)
Insurance
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Night Train
- Posts: 350
- Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:16 pm
To me this is sickening. With the California State budget crisis did government think about cutting government positions and a 30% across the board salary cut for every State employee? Doubt it. The government is the largest employer in California.
Your community needs to propose elimination of several jobs and steep paycuts for everyone. Think they will? Everyone else knows people that lost jobs and most everyone has taken pay cuts. Will they?
Can't keep open an outdoor rink with more need and demand than ever?
Your community needs to propose elimination of several jobs and steep paycuts for everyone. Think they will? Everyone else knows people that lost jobs and most everyone has taken pay cuts. Will they?
Can't keep open an outdoor rink with more need and demand than ever?
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InigoMontoya
- Posts: 1716
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:36 pm
Yikes. I was't expecting that. I'm not sure I have the stones to propose that one of my neighbors be fired so my kid can skate outside. I appreciate your enthusiasm, though.
I guess I was hoping there was a city administrator or insurance agent out there that could shed light on this. Monkey bars in the summer v. ice in the winter; why and how much increased insurance cost could there be?
I guess I was hoping there was a city administrator or insurance agent out there that could shed light on this. Monkey bars in the summer v. ice in the winter; why and how much increased insurance cost could there be?
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hockey_is_a_choice
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:48 am
Imo,
Chances are your city is insured by the Minnesotca League of Cities Insurance Trust (LMIT). LMIT's web site is located at: http://www.lmc.org/page/1/about-lmcit.jsp
I doubt your city's insurance premiums will decrease significantly if the city doesn't open its outdoor ice rinks next winter. In any event, you are entitled to know how the city's general liability insurance premiums are calculated and can request this information from your city administrator. Under the Minnesota Government Practices Act, Minnesota Statues Chapter 13, you can send a letter to your city administrator requesting information on the city's insurance coverages and premiums, including how much of the premium (if any) is affected specifically by the existence of operating outdoor ice rinks. The insurance that would typically cover the city against bodily injuries is a general liability (or public liability) insurance policy. Your city will have a portfolio of different insurance coverages, but you are only interested in the policy (and premium) that insures the city for claims or losses arising from the operation of its outdoor rinks.
If your city has a city-owned swimming pool, it might want to think about closing the pool if it is serious about saving money on its insurance premium.
Here's a link to a document that gives you an overview of the Government Data Practices Act: http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/pubs/dataprac.pdf
Good luck and let us know the city's response to your request.
Chances are your city is insured by the Minnesotca League of Cities Insurance Trust (LMIT). LMIT's web site is located at: http://www.lmc.org/page/1/about-lmcit.jsp
I doubt your city's insurance premiums will decrease significantly if the city doesn't open its outdoor ice rinks next winter. In any event, you are entitled to know how the city's general liability insurance premiums are calculated and can request this information from your city administrator. Under the Minnesota Government Practices Act, Minnesota Statues Chapter 13, you can send a letter to your city administrator requesting information on the city's insurance coverages and premiums, including how much of the premium (if any) is affected specifically by the existence of operating outdoor ice rinks. The insurance that would typically cover the city against bodily injuries is a general liability (or public liability) insurance policy. Your city will have a portfolio of different insurance coverages, but you are only interested in the policy (and premium) that insures the city for claims or losses arising from the operation of its outdoor rinks.
If your city has a city-owned swimming pool, it might want to think about closing the pool if it is serious about saving money on its insurance premium.
Here's a link to a document that gives you an overview of the Government Data Practices Act: http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/pubs/dataprac.pdf
Good luck and let us know the city's response to your request.
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3GoonsWest
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:37 am
I agree with Night Train, your Director of Parks and Rec. sounds like a real moron, start with him. The other concern there would be who is running the youth hockey association. The leadership there is obviously asleep at the wheel. It would seem as though the bus has gone through the barricade and is heading toward the cliff and nobody has started to stir.
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InigoMontoya
- Posts: 1716
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:36 pm
I aspire to be the P&R director some day; six figures to schedule park shelters and slow pitch softball games. I'd include mowing, but it is looking like that's another money saver - if it wasn't for a parent's quick thinking, with a Marco...Polo..., we'd have lost a centerfielder at T-ball last week.
The leadership doesn't have kids interested in skating outside, and they are certainly not interested in holding a hose when temps are single digits (unless it's a photo op), so they're pleased as punch that the other kids aren't out their enjoying themselves and getting better, pulling ahead of their kids. And heaven knows we don't want those 'neighborhood kids' getting interested in hockey, then we'd have to actually work to raise money to keep fees down while renting more ice time and buying more equipment; after all "hockey is a rich man's game".
The leadership doesn't have kids interested in skating outside, and they are certainly not interested in holding a hose when temps are single digits (unless it's a photo op), so they're pleased as punch that the other kids aren't out their enjoying themselves and getting better, pulling ahead of their kids. And heaven knows we don't want those 'neighborhood kids' getting interested in hockey, then we'd have to actually work to raise money to keep fees down while renting more ice time and buying more equipment; after all "hockey is a rich man's game".
How often is the rink in question used? I think that's the deciding factor, at least it is in our community. We've closed multiple outdoor rinks because the risk to reward ratio was out of whack. If he rink is used then it's a community asset like a pool if it's not used very much why pay the increased insurance even if it's only a few bucks.
In our situation our youth hockey association traded the number of outdoor ice rinks in exchange for building a new indoor sheet of ice to keep it as close to a revenue neutral exchange as possible.
Given the aid to Minnesota cities (LGA) decreased, in some cases drastically and park departments are on the bottom of the food chain when comes to city money I'd go to your city leaders not the park department, the city leaders control the budget to the P & R dept.
In our situation our youth hockey association traded the number of outdoor ice rinks in exchange for building a new indoor sheet of ice to keep it as close to a revenue neutral exchange as possible.
Given the aid to Minnesota cities (LGA) decreased, in some cases drastically and park departments are on the bottom of the food chain when comes to city money I'd go to your city leaders not the park department, the city leaders control the budget to the P & R dept.
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InigoMontoya
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Ah, now I see what Fred was saying. You took something away from the kids in your town when you made that exchange; therefore, the city forces you to allow them to join your club. All in all, though it may have been revenue neutral for the city and perhaps the association, the reality is that you removed a recreational opportunity (and the Norman Rockwell memories) from the children - not your children, though.In our situation our youth hockey association traded the number of outdoor ice rinks in exchange for building a new indoor sheet of ice to keep it as close to a revenue neutral exchange as possible.
No, no one took anything away from anyone, the outdoor rinks sit mostly empty aside from some boot hockey played by college aged kids. Youth hockey long ago gave up any use of outdoor ice, I can bet that no youth hockey team has had an organized pratice on an outdoor sheet of ice in years. Mine were the last about 5 years ago and we were told specifically not to use outdoor ice by the hockey board that season.
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3GoonsWest
- Posts: 40
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rockcrusher
- Posts: 111
- Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:31 pm
Goldy, I'll take that bet, and you will lose. We have one indoor rink in our small town 'up north'. Two high school teams with jv's, bantams, peewees, two squirt, and a couple of mite teams, not to forget public skating and men's hockey, the indoor schedule is solid all winter. My kid's peewee team was indoor twice a week last winter, guess where the other practices were, not on Lake Superior, ice wasn't thick enough. In my opinion, kids' will learn more about the game of hockey rink rattin on the outdoor with kids of all ages than they will during an hour of organized drills indoor. We make do with any ice time we can get, and I would put our outdoor ice up against any ice anywhere, we are nice to our park and rec fella's up here and they keep things nice for us.
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youngblood08
- Posts: 1007
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:04 pm
Sorry, I should have specified in my community - Rochester.
It's to rent ice because RYHA guarenteed to buy X amount of hours per season and the number of boys playing is falling; we lose a bantam team about every 3 years (but we have 2 more sheets of ice). Luckily girls hockey started and is using a lot of ice but there is still a ton of available indoor ice throughout the winter. 10 years ago my adult league played at either 9:15 or 10:30 at night, last year we were done by 8 or 9. My oldest 2 kids almost never practiced inside after Thanksgiving, my youngest never practiced outside and he only played house league. There's nothing wrong with outdoor ice and it's free it's usually available at great times. Geez, a hundred years ago in high school we did all of our conditioning on outdoor ice because indoor ice was way to valuable to waste time doing that on it.
I've said it on here many times, the worst thing that happened to hockey was the Might Ducks grant, too many towns with multiple indoor rinks, it drives up the cost which lessens the number of kids playing. More money to sign up = less kids, less kids = less ice rented which raises ice rates or less kids = more ice time that needs to be bought which means higher costs to sign up.
It's to rent ice because RYHA guarenteed to buy X amount of hours per season and the number of boys playing is falling; we lose a bantam team about every 3 years (but we have 2 more sheets of ice). Luckily girls hockey started and is using a lot of ice but there is still a ton of available indoor ice throughout the winter. 10 years ago my adult league played at either 9:15 or 10:30 at night, last year we were done by 8 or 9. My oldest 2 kids almost never practiced inside after Thanksgiving, my youngest never practiced outside and he only played house league. There's nothing wrong with outdoor ice and it's free it's usually available at great times. Geez, a hundred years ago in high school we did all of our conditioning on outdoor ice because indoor ice was way to valuable to waste time doing that on it.
I've said it on here many times, the worst thing that happened to hockey was the Might Ducks grant, too many towns with multiple indoor rinks, it drives up the cost which lessens the number of kids playing. More money to sign up = less kids, less kids = less ice rented which raises ice rates or less kids = more ice time that needs to be bought which means higher costs to sign up.
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InigoMontoya
- Posts: 1716
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:36 pm
It also takes away great opportunities for the kids. Parents that haven't committed to the cost and time involved with association hockey can't see their kids go to the park to ram around with their friends. It's tough these days to start playing hockey at 7 or 8, much less 9 or 10; possible if they've been skating recreationally. Maybe more importantly, the kids that get structure inside all winter are not allowed to free style for 3 or 4 hours, grab some lunch, then go back out for the afternoon - learning new moves from older kids and gaining confidence by using them against younger kids. MNH can stand on its soapbox and crow about pond hockey, but I don't see them doing much to help restore ice in communities where the pond has been abandoned. Let's spend all of our time and energy worrying about what color the kids' sweaters are rather than how we can better teach them the game.
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spin-o-rama
- Posts: 547
- Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:30 pm
Very good point!InigoMontoya wrote:It also takes away great opportunities for the kids. Parents that haven't committed to the cost and time involved with association hockey can't see their kids go to the park to ram around with their friends. It's tough these days to start playing hockey at 7 or 8, much less 9 or 10; possible if they've been skating recreationally. Maybe more importantly, the kids that get structure inside all winter are not allowed to free style for 3 or 4 hours, grab some lunch, then go back out for the afternoon - learning new moves from older kids and gaining confidence by using them against younger kids. MNH can stand on its soapbox and crow about pond hockey, but I don't see them doing much to help restore (outdoor) ice in communities where the pond has been abandoned. Let's spend all of our time and energy worrying about what color the kids' sweaters are rather than how we can better teach them the game.
We are in a vicious cycle in our communities. Park and Rec cuts back maintenance of ice and warming house hours and kids will skate less. This justifies the P&R to do further cuts and it spirals downward.
Goldy, I'm not sure [edit] who told you not to use outdoor ice. I am starting my 7th year on the board (since 1998 with a few years off) and the issue had never been discussed while I have been involved. I still take my teams outside several times per year. The ice has actually been decent the last two seasons. Goldy I agree with you that pond hockey is still a great way to develop individual skills and kids miss out if they don't get to do it. JM boys and girls will be playing an outdoor game this winter.
Last edited by Mac15 on Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.