What should the player do???

no-fly-bys · Post by **no-fly-bys** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:20 pm

You are a freshman and on a A bantam team. you know you could make the JV team for your school( classic suburban) you also know you would probably be thye 4th line on the varsity team, which may get a few shifts per game.. 50+ games at the A bantam level or go for high school. Many different opinions, lets here them..

midwesthockeyscout · Post by **midwesthockeyscout** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:44 pm

This is a very difficult subject.

First off, if you are SURE the player will be on varsity, then I think there needs to be a conversation between the coach, the player and the parent(s). The ultimate goal is to play HS hockey, and the varsity coach should be no different than a professional coach. What is in the best interest of the PLAYER and the program??

A good coach will tell you up front what he feels in the best interest of the player. If the coach tells you that you will have better development at A Bantaam, than that's the direction you go.

My opinion, and my many years of dealing with the process, here is what I can tell you.

There is no substitution for having the privilege and honor to wear your high school hockey sweater. Socially, the benefits speak for themselves.

We all know that games are a reward for practice. Ideally, most coaches prefer 3 practices for every game - some like even 4. As a freshman, if you are on the varsity team, even as a fourth-liner, you are 1) in the system, and learning the high school system, and 2) are PRACTICING against bigger, stronger, faster and more mature players. The games on the bench also give you up front the intensity that is needed to play at the HS level.

Now, furthermore, your game schedule is more consistent, usually every Thursday and Saturday. Practices are normally right after school. No more 9 p.m., Sunday 8 a.m. practices.

Ok... let's also factor in what is your A bantam schedule? There are some A bantam teams whose schedule merits consideration. Teams like Edina, Eden Prarie, White Bear Lake, Duluth, Wayzata play such tremendous schedules against each other that many believe the A Bantam competition is much better than JV.

That's where 50+ games are a benefit, however, in a 1.5 hour game, factor in how much ice time your son gets. If 15 minute periods, that means most kids on teams with 3 lines get 15 minutes of ice time in a game. Is that more beneficial than an hour long practice? To me, it's not.

To recap... wear your high school sweater with pride, and do your best to represent your school.

johnnyquest · Post by **johnnyquest** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:58 pm

The only time you leave a bantam A program that competes in district II is if you are guaranteed a regular shift on the varsity team - period!

No one aspires to play J.V. (one ends up on J.V.) and if your team competes in the vfw league you have your 50 games.

Yea its great to wear your high school sweater and it certainly sounds like you eventually will.

A high school hockey games consists of many p.p. and p.k. situations - which you will not be a part of.

Practicing with the big boys is a definate plus, but being a team leader and logging many shifts (as a bantam) will result in a much more enjoyable season.

My post is based on the fact that you mentioned your son would be a 4th line varsity player.

remember, you are playing in dist. II - probably one of the top 2 districts in the state of hockey.

Rossbury21 · Post by **Rossbury21** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:59 pm

Try out for the team. You will know where you, or your son will be after the try out, just by the try out. If you can see he would be JV only, then play Bantams, if you can see he might crack the 3rd line Varsity, stay. Plus, it is free ice time against better players. I'd advise every A Bantam to try out, it can't harm them at all, just benefit them. Give it a try during the try out, and yeah, do what midwesthockeyscout said, and talk to your coach, Most coaches know what they are doing for a team before tryouts.

hemiman · Post by **hemiman** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:33 pm

Here is a novel idea;

Ask the player what he wants to do and support his decision.

BodyShots · Post by **BodyShots** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:01 am

Being a Freshman, you still have 3 years to play high school hockey. Now comparing (in your case) a 50 game "A" Bantam schedule to a 20-25 game JV/Varsity schedule is not even close. Not to mention your son would only be a part time player at that. I know my son couldn't believe how short the HS season was and enjoyed his Bantam years more.

Midwest Scout, I'm shocked at your answer. All scouts and upper level coaches always complain that the top HS players in MN don't get enough game action. That is why kids play before/after and the summer Elite league. How can you recommend a HS Freshman to play only 20-25 vs an "A" Bantam schedule of 50+

But, there are those that chose the opposite, A potentail returning "A" Bantam goalie passed up a chance to play a 70 game schedule ( 35-40 assuming he gets 1/2 + Districts/Region/State) to play JV (10-12 games) on a HS team.

observer · Post by **observer** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:31 am

There are a number of factors. In most instances I feel it's a mistake to skip Bantam hockey for JV. Historically the unwritten rule has been don't leave unless the player is top two lines varsity and getting an opportunity to play on the powerplay and shorthanded units. That's based on hockey reasons.

The most commonly quoted reasons for leaving bantam for high school include,

1. finances
2. transportation
3. times and locations of practices
4. HS girls follow HS hockey not bantam

They aren't really hockey reasons but real reasons none the less. You never get those special bantam years back. The final years of a players youth hockey career.

Stealth · Post by **Stealth** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:01 am

Does this program take kids with youth eligibility?
Are bodies needed in the high school program?
Ask the kid is right.
Does he feel he is the star of the Bantam team or does the dad?
Is this child even playing in the Captains practice now?

Last year "no-fly-bys" on the HS Forum was all Pee Wee posts on here? So you just skipping Bantams?

Help nurture the true kids he will be playing with in the future, his Bantam team?

mngopherfan · Post by **mngopherfan** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:12 am

Stealth wrote:Does this program take kids with youth eligibility?
Are bodies needed in the high school program?
Ask the kid is right.
Does he feel he is the star of the Bantam team or does the dad?
Is this child even playing in the Captains practice now?

Last year "no-fly-bys" on the HS Forum was all Pee Wee posts on here? So you just skipping Bantams?

Help nurture the true kids he will be playing with in the future, his Bantam team?

The only way you leave is if you're top 6. Development wise, he'll grow more as a "go-to" guy at the Bantam A level than playing 4th line varsity. If it's the title and the status you want, the by all means go...hope it works out for you...

oldguy39 · Post by **oldguy39** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:09 pm

My son faced the same problem. But he would have had playing time on the varsity squad. He wanted to stay at the bantam level with his friends.I had asked some people that have been around the game awhile and they all agreed that you play where you get the most ice time, period. Financialy, if you think high school hockey is that much cheaper , your in for a big shock. 1st entry fee, 2nd booster fee, 3rd game fees, 4th out of town tourney(for some) 5th summer programs, 6th captains practice.High school hockey is not cheap

johnnyquest · Post by **johnnyquest** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:14 pm

It sounds nice to say "ask the player what he wants to do and support his decision."

We tried that with the whole motorcycle helmet thing - he didn't want to wear one.

believe it or not, sometimes parents really know what is best for their child.[/i]

midwesthockeyscout · Post by **midwesthockeyscout** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:51 pm

BodyShots wrote:Being a Freshman, you still have 3 years to play high school hockey. Now comparing (in your case) a 50 game "A" Bantam schedule to a 20-25 game JV/Varsity schedule is not even close. Not to mention your son would only be a part time player at that. I know my son couldn't believe how short the HS season was and enjoyed his Bantam years more.

Midwest Scout, I'm shocked at your answer. All scouts and upper level coaches always complain that the top HS players in MN don't get enough game action. That is why kids play before/after and the summer Elite league. How can you recommend a HS Freshman to play only 20-25 vs an "A" Bantam schedule of 50+

But, there are those that chose the opposite, A potentail returning "A" Bantam goalie passed up a chance to play a 70 game schedule ( 35-40 assuming he gets 1/2 + Districts/Region/State) to play JV (10-12 games) on a HS team.

Body.... my opinion had two variables. I clearly stated it depended upon the PROGRAM for A bantams, as I mentioned a few teams. For those teams I mentioned, based on their competition, I said there was an advantage to play the 50+ game schedule vs JV.

I also know there have been players that have foregone as sophomores, not freshman, playing JV and then played the A Bantam schedule and later
admitted they wished they played JV. It was the father's decision to have the son play A bantam.

In reference about the goalie, I think I know who you are talking about since I have met you before , and if it's the same team and same goalie I am thinking of (and since I chart goalies), he was a sophomore, not a freshman. I doubt the kid regretted it. Again, it's about getting into the system.

My point also reflects on this. What if this freshman was a 4th line player for varsity? What if there were injuries to other varsity players and now this kid was to get a regular shift? Now, are you going to tell me that 50 games at A bantam against 8th and 9th graders will help his development more than playing against juniors and seniors?

Have there ever been examples in HS hockey of a kid working his tail off and getting promoted to 3rd line and a regular shift, after splitting JV and 4th line?

Does EVERY A bantam team have a PK and PP unit, that warrants all the ice time? And what if the player is struggling, and now, doesn't get all the ice time at A Bantam? Or what if the bantam coach just rotates his 3 lines, because the A Bantam team isn't a solid program?

I am just saying.. This same player who bypasses JV/Varsity may also encounter a situation where, maybe only a few kids graduate, and now, the existing JV players develop enough that this A bantam player may very well end up making JV sophomore year, and then 4th line versus his sophomore year playing 3rd or maybe even 2nd line. It DOES happen.

Again, it comes down to the PROGRAM... It comes down to the player and ESPECIALLY the coach.

I am just saying that in MY OPINION, if you know you are capable of playing varsity hockey, the coach WANTS you there, than that is the way to go. Trust me, there are plenty of egos in coaches... If the varsity coach tells a kid that he wants him, and the kid decides "I'll pass!" and he wants to play A bantam instead??? Hmmm.

Again, it is an opinion. Right or wrong doesn't matter..

keepyourheadup · Post by **keepyourheadup** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:24 pm

This topic always generates good discussion and there have been some excellent points presented. My concern has more to do with the whole concept of development. Many posts appear to have an underlying motive..ie..preparing a player for post high school hockey. Every year there are freshman who are ready to compete with the big boys, unfortunately we also see a significant number of kids try to make the jump who are not ready. With the exception of a number of the top HS programs JV hockey is on par with good bantam a hockey, the only difference being the size of the JV kids. I get the impression that people feel you'll have a leg up if you make the jump. I have no science to back it up but just going on recent memory there have been some exceptional players who played bantams their second year and "developed" just fine. Some of the top players in the state last year..Buddish, Forbort, Pitlick and Leddy did this. Anders Lee, another tremendous player, played as an eigth grader, I'm not certain that experience accelerated his development. I could site examples of kids who actually regressed but in fairness to them will not. There is no one size fits all answer but if the motivation to move to HS is based on a desire to chase down visions of college and beyond take a good look at the number of incoming minnesotans in the USHL and you'll soon realize how long the odds of making it are. I personnaly would much rather error on the side of caution and wait. If it matters, I pondered this samequestion a year ago and am pleased that my son remained a bantam. He and his team had a wonderful year.

bstarr15 · Post by **bstarr15** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:58 pm

Been here and done that, play Bantams and get all the games you can.
My son did and ended up playing against the aformentioned Anders Lee,Budish,Pitlick and a whole host of great 2nd year Bantam kids and they had great competition. Ended up then playing HS Elite I with all these same kids. JV can be such a hodge podge as players play then change, sit out so they can play possibly a period of Varsity and get a few shifts in. So not always a lot of consistency to the games IMHO.

no-fly-bys · Post by **no-fly-bys** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:01 pm

Stealth wrote:Does this program take kids with youth eligibility?
Are bodies needed in the high school program?
Ask the kid is right.
Does he feel he is the star of the Bantam team or does the dad?
Is this child even playing in the Captains practice now?

Last year "no-fly-bys" on the HS Forum was all Pee Wee posts on here? So you just skipping Bantams?

Help nurture the true kids he will be playing with in the future, his Bantam team?

My son is a first year Bantam, but there are a few kids on his team trying out for the jv and varsity at there respective schools. Just seeing everyones opinion was. When I was a freshman I decided to stay at the A bantam level so did a few other kids b/c we had a pretty good team. The varsity coach did talk to us and ask what we were going to do, he did not promise anything but the option was there. Did I make the right choice?? My parents had no say in the matter they didn"t know boo about hockey they just knew it was a time consuming sport. I am sure they would have loved the after school ice time and no more late nites but I am just trying to be more proactive in my kids development.. Size he is big enough, and by watching the class in front of him they have nothing. So just wondering..........

midwesthockeyscout · Post by **midwesthockeyscout** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:19 pm

[quote="keepyourheadup"]This topic always generates good discussion and there have been some excellent points presented. My concern has more to do with the whole concept of development. Many posts appear to have an underlying motive..ie..preparing a player for post high school hockey. Every year there are freshman who are ready to compete with the big boys, unfortunately we also see a significant number of kids try to make the jump who are not ready. quote]

I think what you are saying is on the same page as I was trying to get at.

Guys like Buddish, Leddy, Lee, etc, are exceptions, rather than the rule. As stated, there aren't a great deal of kids geteting drafted and going D1, but Minnesota does get noticed.

Regardless, it's not so much as I profess that playing varsity 4th line as a freshman is so that the player can get drafted in the NHL, it's the high school experience and prestige. There ARE benefits of playing against juniors and seniors versus 8th and 9th graders, just as much as there are benefits of playing 50+ games at A Bantam.

I am just saying the HS experience is A LOT more fun.

Again, I caan't stress eneough that the varsity coach should be the one that helps you make your decision. Not just a bunch of us faceless, nameless jicky-jacks.

midwesthockeyscout · Post by **midwesthockeyscout** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:23 pm

My son is a first year Bantam, but there are a few kids on his team trying out for the jv and varsity at there respective schools. wondering..........[/quote]

Okay.. so you're saying he will be bantam eligible still as a sophomore, because he started school early?

If that is the case, then I will definitely lean more towards A Bantams for this year. To make the jump from Pee Wee to JV is awfully, awfully hard, no matter his size.

hockeyboys · Post by **hockeyboys** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:01 pm

There are players with Bantam eligibility as Sophomores. MN Hockey goes by a July 1 date - schools use September 1. So kids born in July and August - and started school on time and were not held back by their parents, would still be eligible for Bantams as Sophomores.

This discussion would probably be different for players in this sitution, as most of their peers would be playing HS hockey.

Moose Jaw, SK · Post by **Moose Jaw, SK** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:24 pm

hockeyboys wrote:There are players with Bantam eligibility as Sophomores. MN Hockey goes by a July 1 date - schools use September 1. So kids born in July and August - and started school on time and were not held back by their parents, would still be eligible for Bantams as Sophomores.

This discussion would probably be different for players in this sitution, as most of their peers would be playing HS hockey.

I fell under this category and played two years of A Bantams as a Freshman and Sophomore in High School. It wasn't ideal but I made it work and it was very beneficial, if I moved on too early I don't think I would have had the same development opportunities. Then I played two years of varsity and have since moved on to D3 college. For me I don't regret playing bantams at all. At the time I wanted to play high school and was not interested at Bantams but then my coach wanted me to develop in bantams and it worked out for me at least. I would say it depends on your physical maturity/ size. For me I was very small until my junior year and even then I was still very skinny but I grew height wise. Each situation is different but seeing as you think you will be a 3rd or 4th liner on JV it would seem as a no brainer to play bantams, then as a soph try and crack the varsity line-up. Maybe I should mention that I am a goalie so that might make things different vs. a player. But that's my input.

Prodigy Project · Post by **Prodigy Project** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:24 am

throw him up to the big league and let him get used to getting hit by a few enforcers and getting over thos jitters we all know and love

HShockeyz · Post by **HShockeyz** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:57 am

no brainer

HShockeyz · Post by **HShockeyz** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:58 am

If the kid is so good to make varsity but only 4th line, then probably at a top school district, i.e. eden prairie, wbl, etc... with a great bantam program. no reason to move early to sit on bench or play jv (few quality games) with only 25 games. 70 or so games at a top program can't replace that for development. The kid can learn to dominate and move up accordingly. Playing Bantams only hurts if the varsity coach is an idiot and uses that against him. I know of one girl that moved up to play jv last year, only to get cut this year. I'm sure its happened with the boys. That one year of development where the kid is the "go to guy" is irreplaceable.

blueblood · Post by **blueblood** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:12 pm

FYI - Budish, Lee, Everson, Gaarder, Baker (the Edina Fab 5) each played 2 years of Bantams then played varsity HS hockey for 3 years.

I don't think it hindered their progress or hurt their chances of playing varsity, D1 and some of them getting drafted....

mngopherfan · Post by **mngopherfan** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:48 pm

blueblood wrote:FYI - Budish, Lee, Everson, Gaarder, Baker (the Edina Fab 5) each played 2 years of Bantams then played varsity HS hockey for 3 years.

I don't think it hindered their progress or hurt their chances of playing varsity, D1 and some of them getting drafted....

Solid point, so did Leddy. There are a bunch of examples of this. The thing that bothers me is the obsession with advancement and tying playing Varsity hockey to that. Playing 3rd line varsity (most teams mind you) would allow a player to play 3-5 shifts a period. IF that same player is on a Bantam Team he'd be playing twice that on a first line. Development at a 14yr old level is all about getting as much ice as possible.

Granted there are exceptions where bantam's move up and play really well and dominate, Travis Boyd and Christian Horn come to mind. But if you're not going to be a top 6 contributor at the Varsity level, play bantams, you'll have 3 years at Varsity anyways...

Just my opinion.

basketballguy · Post by **basketballguy** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:51 pm

blueblood wrote:FYI - Budish, Lee, Everson, Gaarder, Baker (the Edina Fab 5) each played 2 years of Bantams then played varsity HS hockey for 3 years.

I don't think it hindered their progress or hurt their chances of playing varsity, D1 and some of them getting drafted....

FYI-Anders Lee played 8th and ninth grade for St Thomas Varsity, no bantams, both paths led to great high school careers for these guys. It can be done either way.

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