Tag Up off-sides

Snowmass · Post by **Snowmass** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:53 pm

(sorry if this has been beaten to death in the past)
Why do we not have tag up off sides other than AAA? It's so much better. Especially peewees on up. This past season (AAA last March through August) was our 1st real experience with it. 99% of the kids get it after 1 game. Three 17 minute tag up off side periods are about 20 ice time minutes (it seems) faster than three 15 minute regular off sides periods. What is the school of thought on that rule not being used? Am I mising something?

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:58 pm

Yes, I think you are missing something. If you can't just throw it back in the zone it forces the team to maintain control of the puck. USA Hockey is pretty adamant that they don't want tag-up offside for youth hockey.

Unfortunately they start with Mites this way too. Good Squirts and all Pee Wees certainly can do what is necessary.

nahc · Post by **nahc** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:11 am

Snowmass: Could not agree more with your views. The game flows so much smoother.........kids get offsides........and you still can't touch the puck without heading out of the zone first.........Am sure this view will get numerous comments concerning touch up does not teach kids about puck control, etc........nonsense........

SECoach · Post by **SECoach** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:14 am

Nonsense or not, that is the reason. Once again, the guy in the corner has all the answers and people who spend their lives trying to improve hockey are wrong.

SoftMitts · Post by **SoftMitts** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:35 am

In the long run I believe automatic off sides helps the kids learn to regroup and take the puck backwards, something not easily taught. When they get to HS they can play the game the way it was meant to be with touch up.

sorno82 · Post by **sorno82** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:01 pm

Unintended consequence of the rule make the theory mute. Most coaches tell kids just to take the offsides if challenged. The better D-men are fine, but the ones that need the extra work just get rid of the puck anyway.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:33 pm

Most coaches tell kids just to take the offsides if challenged.

There would be less of that if more refs call intentional offsides.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:37 pm

Once again, the guy in the corner has all the answers and people who spend their lives trying to improve hockey are wrong.

The guy in the corner is whom?

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:55 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:
Once again, the guy in the corner has all the answers and people who spend their lives trying to improve hockey are wrong.
The guy in the corner is whom?

I have a corner office, perhaps it is ME.

SECoach · Post by **SECoach** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:03 pm

No, the guy in the corner is the one you can see at most rinks, trying to talk to his kid while he's on the ice, so that he can get the right information to him because the people putting in all the time are wrong. Therefore it can't be Elliott, and the jury is still out on IM.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:13 pm

I'm not quite sure what that has to do with USAH and the automatic offsides rule, but let's explore this a bit...the guy in the corner is behing the no tag-up conspiracy? Can other people see this guy? Does this guy tell you to do things?

SECoach · Post by **SECoach** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:21 pm

The guy in the corner is the one that disagrees with every decision that USA Hockey makes in an effort to improve the players because for some unknown reason, he always has the right answer. He doesn't get involved and participate but he keeps all the right answers to himself and then bitches on this board. I guess you are right, he's not always in the corner, he's everywhere. Usually it's someone that has an inherent problem with authority and giving up control.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:03 pm

SECoach wrote:The guy in the corner is the one that disagrees with every decision that USA Hockey makes in an effort to improve the players because for some unknown reason, he always has the right answer. He doesn't get involved and participate but he keeps all the right answers to himself and then bitches on this board. I guess you are right, he's not always in the corner, he's everywhere. Usually it's someone that has an inherent problem with authority and giving up control.

So it could be ME.

JoltDelivered · Post by **JoltDelivered** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:09 pm

Well I have to admit, I love the guy in the corner.

Watching him can be the most entertaining part of a boring, meaningless squirt B hockey game in the middle of a January.

Witnessing conflict from afar can be very entertaining!!

SECoach · Post by **SECoach** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:22 pm

No Elliott it can't be you. The not getting involved or participating part takes you out of contention.

I agree witnessing conflict from afar can be entertaining and it gives us all something to talk about, and even makes fun of the people involved. It is time however that we get serious about how not serious this should all be. Watch how the kids feel about it when they are 15 or 16. Years ago this was not a problem. Youth sports changed to become very hands off but comment, complaint and interference on for parents. The kids from this era are just finishing and hitting high school. Many of them can't wait to be done with it. The very talented stay involved because there is some reward in it for them. The rest walk away not sure why they even stayed with it that long. They've witnessed 15 years of BS and drama that is for the most part created by parents. It's time we get serious about this. My opinion is that it sucks for the kids. When they get old enough to disagree with dad, they will let you know with a waive......maybe a digital waive.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:02 pm

Years ago this was not a problem.

How old are you? When I was growing up there were plenty of parents that stalked the sidelines, plenty of parents that moaned about the performance of a 16 year old kid at a booster club meeting, plenty of coaches that got chewed out because little Johnny should be starting at quarterback. The competitive coach from the Bad News Bears wasn’t pulled from someone’s imagination; it is a stereotype of behavior of parent coaches in the 70’s. Robert Duvall’s character in The Great Santini stomping up and down the basketball court wasn’t made up; it was an example of real life parent involvement. I’m glad you grew up with the Brady Bunch, but most of the rest of us got our butts chewed after a game in which we didn’t seem to hustle enough.

The guy in the corner is the one that disagrees with every decision that USA Hockey makes in an effort to improve the players because for some unknown reason, he always has the right answer.

Minnesota Hockey disagrees with many decisions USA Hockey makes. Herb Brooks disagreed with a whole bunch of decisions USA Hockey made; is he the guy in the corner? Disagree doesn't mean doesn't care, or doesn't get involved. There are coaches on both sides of the tag-up rule. Many coaches, board members, and at least one DD on this forum, not only offer responses to questions, but also float trial balloons before implementing something on the ice, or calling for a vote, or handing down a ruling. There are, to be sure, folks with an axe to grind, but it is possible that some of them use this venue as a cathartic release, so they can go back to their teams, or their associations, or their districts in a better state of mind to do what’s right for the kids. Don’t take it as a personal attack on you.

SECoach · Post by **SECoach** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:37 pm

You're right, I'm old. Old enough to have been dropped at the rink or the ballfield (rode a bike) for practice and not have the stands filled with parents ready to pounce on anything and everything. Old enough to have exactly ZERO parents watch youth football practice. Now the lawnchairs are lined up by the dozens. AT PRACTICE! Give me a break. Maybe you are a young man but things WERE different not that long ago. I got my butt chewed, but by a coach and not my parents. My parents never dreamed of telling a coach that i was playing on the wrong line, let alone lose their mind and burn the town because they disagreed with a rule handed down by the governing body of the sport. They never complained that Little League (yes that's all there was at the time) players were required to bat once and play two innings in the field. You are wrong, i was not fortunate enough to be a Brady. I was however fortunate enough to have parents that knew, when they didn't know much about what was going on, they shouldn't bitch about it. For some reason, now, most people know better that the ones charged with putting things in place. Many have no problem sharing with the players on a team what an idiot the coach is for making a decisions and so on. Disagree, go ahead, leave the kids out of it and let them decide for themselves.

The examples of people you give that disagree are all people who are involved and voice their opinion to the people that can do something about it to bring about change. They would never voice their frustrations to their kids by telling them how messed up everything is. You use Herb Brooks, easy, he didn't sit in the stands and bitch about things he knew nothing about. You use Elliott, easy, he is a District Director who states his disagreements and works very hard to change the things he believes need to be changed. I'm pretty sure you know these are not who i'm talking about. They are not the man in the corner.

No, disagree does not in any way mean don't care, or doesn't get involved. Start a bunch of crap and drama at the rink to where there is no possible way that it doesn't negatively affect the kids is what i'm talking about.

It would be great if this board was just a release for frustrations and for many it probably is. I don't think you are so naive to think that some of the posters aren't taking it to the rink and the dinner table everyday.

I don't take any of it personally. Over that many years ago. I do fight constantly to create a better experience for the kids. Unfortunately, that now involves helping parents and coaches both recognize how much damage they can cause.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:53 pm

My parents (nor anyone elses) watched any of our youth games, ever.

When you played varsity they would be there. (maybe JV, but I skipped that and went right for the big times)

Of course, I am considered 'old'. And I guess I am. I think Lincoln was president when I was born.

DMom · Post by **DMom** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:12 pm

elliott70 wrote:My parents (nor anyone elses) watched any of our youth games, ever.

When you played varsity they would be there. (maybe JV, but I skipped that and went right for the big times)

Of course, I am considered 'old'. And I guess I am. I think Lincoln was president when I was born.

I just had this conversation with my Dad the other day, because he pointed out that we are a little kidcentric in our house. My husband and I work, and run our kids around and volunteer in the organizations they are involved in--that's our life and the life of many, many of our friends.

I played competitive softball through high school and my parents or siblings never, ever came to a game, AND I never felt bad about that. I was in a competitive drum and bugle corps and traveled all over the U.S. and Canada and my parents never saw me perform, AND I never felt bad about that. Because they weren't there is not the reason my husband and I are everywhere, and even have some issues with carpooling--it's the whole Jacob Wetterling issue that my generation grew up with. Kid's out of sight can be kid's that disappear. So you stay, and you hover and as long as you are there you ask them if they took their inhaler, if they think that girl is cute, if coach told them not to rush the puck.......baaaad habit.

As I have always told our oldest, we made a lot of mistakes with him so we could get it right for the next two

I have learned the hard way that "Are you hungry?" and "Did you get something to drink?" are the only acceptable comments in the car after a game.

What was the topic of the thread? Oh yeah, I love tagup offsides but that's for my viewing pleasure because my kid's aren't centers, they're defensemen and than they get to handle the puck more.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:39 pm

DMom wrote:
elliott70 wrote:My parents (nor anyone elses) watched any of our youth games, ever.

When you played varsity they would be there. (maybe JV, but I skipped that and went right for the big times)

Of course, I am considered 'old'. And I guess I am. I think Lincoln was president when I was born.

I just had this conversation with my Dad the other day, because he pointed out that we are a little kidcentric in our house. My husband and I work, and run our kids around and volunteer in the organizations they are involved in--that's our life and the life of many, many of our friends.

I played competitive softball through high school and my parents or siblings never, ever came to a game, AND I never felt bad about that. I was in a competitive drum and bugle corps and traveled all over the U.S. and Canada and my parents never saw me perform, AND I never felt bad about that. Because they weren't there is not the reason my husband and I are everywhere, and even have some issues with carpooling--it's the whole Jacob Wetterling issue that my generation grew up with. Kid's out of sight can be kid's that disappear. So you stay, and you hover and as long as you are there you ask them if they took their inhaler, if they think that girl is cute, if coach told them not to rush the puck.......baaaad habit.

As I have always told our oldest, we made a lot of mistakes with him so we could get it right for the next two I have learned the hard way that "Are you hungry?" and "Did you get something to drink?" are the only acceptable comments in the car after a game.

What was the topic of the thread? Oh yeah, I love tagup offsides but that's for my viewing pleasure because my kid's aren't centers, they're defensemen and than they get to handle the puck more.

Nooooo!

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:41 pm

But, yes, I understand. We are completely different with our grandkids then we were with our kids.

Its a different time.

But it does not have to be as bad as some (a few) make it.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:43 pm

Tag up does not really bother us in D16 because we play 3 periods of 17 minutes stop time.

And I do not really buy into the flow of the game thing...
it flows one way or another.

silentbutdeadly3139 · Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:09 pm

SECoach wrote:You're right, I'm old. Old enough to have been dropped at the rink or the ballfield (rode a bike) for practice and not have the stands filled with parents ready to pounce on anything and everything. Old enough to have exactly ZERO parents watch youth football practice. Now the lawnchairs are lined up by the dozens. AT PRACTICE! Give me a break. Maybe you are a young man but things WERE different not that long ago. I got my butt chewed, but by a coach and not my parents. My parents never dreamed of telling a coach that i was playing on the wrong line, let alone lose their mind and burn the town because they disagreed with a rule handed down by the governing body of the sport. They never complained that Little League (yes that's all there was at the time) players were required to bat once and play two innings in the field. You are wrong, i was not fortunate enough to be a Brady. I was however fortunate enough to have parents that knew, when they didn't know much about what was going on, they shouldn't bitch about it. For some reason, now, most people know better that the ones charged with putting things in place. Many have no problem sharing with the players on a team what an idiot the coach is for making a decisions and so on. Disagree, go ahead, leave the kids out of it and let them decide for themselves.

The examples of people you give that disagree are all people who are involved and voice their opinion to the people that can do something about it to bring about change. They would never voice their frustrations to their kids by telling them how messed up everything is. You use Herb Brooks, easy, he didn't sit in the stands and bitch about things he knew nothing about. You use Elliott, easy, he is a District Director who states his disagreements and works very hard to change the things he believes need to be changed. I'm pretty sure you know these are not who i'm talking about. They are not the man in the corner.

No, disagree does not in any way mean don't care, or doesn't get involved. Start a bunch of crap and drama at the rink to where there is no possible way that it doesn't negatively affect the kids is what i'm talking about.

It would be great if this board was just a release for frustrations and for many it probably is. I don't think you are so naive to think that some of the posters aren't taking it to the rink and the dinner table everyday.

I don't take any of it personally. Over that many years ago. I do fight constantly to create a better experience for the kids. Unfortunately, that now involves helping parents and coaches both recognize how much damage they can cause.

I'm old too. My parents also just dropped me off any didn't watch practice or games or anything ... too busy working. But they also didn't have to worry about overzealous coaches auditioning for a D1 coaching job with the local squirt team. They didn't have to worry about coaches screaming and swearing at 10 year old kids for not catching a pass or being out of position and need "to get there attention". Yes those coaches are out there just as sure as those parents are in the corner and it is my job as a parent to see that and teach my kids how to handle those situations they don't understand how to handle. Perhaps the pendulum has swung too far but I'm always leery of the coach who doesn't like parents to watch practices or tells them they can't repeat anything said in the locker room to there parents. What do you have to hide ?

I like touch-up offside for viewing but can see how it can impede learning a skill.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:21 pm

silentbutdeadly3139 wrote: Yes those coaches are out there just as sure as those parents are in the corner and it is my job as a parent to see that and teach my kids how to handle those situations they don't understand how to handle. Perhaps the pendulum has swung too far but I'm always leery of the coach who doesn't like parents to watch practices or tells them they can't repeat anything said in the locker room to there parents. What do you have to hide ?

I met a very prominent summer (called "AAU" but actually shoe-circuit) coach once that said, "I hate basketball coaches!"

He said it was his stock comment becuase all he ever heard was the supposedly reputable high school and college coaches saying, "I hate AAU coaches." It is such an unfair oversimplification.

About all I ever hear from coaches is the problem with parents. Truth is, more often I see coaches that should be blamed for their inability to deal with parents.

I think I might start telling everyone I hate youth hockey coaches. As unconventional as it is, this guy I met had no trouble making his point. The obvious truth is that there are good and bad parents, but also good and bad coaches. Assuming all parents are idiotic, clueless, or evil is wrong indeed.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:49 am

I completely agree that having a cancer, whether parent, coach, or player, around the team will ruin the season for everyone. My point is that the good ol' days weren't as good as some are remembering. I had a coach 30 years ago that made us repeat every practice, "What you see here, say here, hear here, stays here when you leave here." I can no longer remember the Krebs cycle or the preamble to the constitution (except for bits of the song from School House Rock), but I'll never forget the first rule of closed door practice. I'll also never forget the 8th grade football coach who grabbed my buddy by the face mask and yanked it so hard his helmet came off his head, to 'get his attention'. I'll also never forget that the elementary school vice principal had a paddle with holes drilled into it for less wind resistance; he didn't use it as a deterrent, he used it to make you cry because your butt hurt real bad, unless you were dumb enough to put your hand back there, then your hand and butt hurt real bad.

HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

Tag Up off-sides

Tag Up off-sides

Offside

Great post