Minn Hock Closes Boarders

GMANDAD · Post by **GMANDAD** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:37 pm

elliott70 wrote:
I fully understand the frustration with MN kids playing in WI without appropriate transfer but if USAH says it is okay based on their rule then we accept it.

Elliott please explain the above. Are you saying that a MN kid needs an appropriate transfer to play in WI?

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:22 pm

GMANDAD wrote:
elliott70 wrote:
I fully understand the frustration with MN kids playing in WI without appropriate transfer but if USAH says it is okay based on their rule then we accept it.

Elliott please explain the above. Are you saying that a MN kid needs an appropriate transfer to play in WI?

I will use ND - MN as ana example.

If an individual player from East grand Forks would like to play on a Grand Forks team, he would waive out of EGF and GF would waive him in.... MN & ND have appropriate forms for this situation.

The Fire is registering as a WAHA team and accepting a certain number of non-Wisconsin players (or USAH Central District) players per USAH guidelines and playing and practicing the required number of games within Wisconsin. Therefore, the MN players do not need a waiver-transfer. Normally, as per ND-MN example, a player gets the appropriate transfer. In the Fire case the 'loophole' (loophole is used because I cannot think of another term to term to use) does not require a transfer-waiver.

So in the case of the Fire - no a waiver is not necessary.
For a Duluth kid to play in Superior, yes, a waiver is needed.

XVegan · Post by **XVegan** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:41 pm

ThePuckStopsHere wrote:
XVegan wrote:[
Rather than spending your time whining to Minnesota Hockey because they won't let one of your Wisconsin AAA teams participate in one of our Association Based tournaments, why don't you and some of your cheese-head hockey parents start to build a reputable association based program of your own like Minnesota has?? Or is it just easier to put your hands up and say it can't be done in Wisconsin, and then hope to ride the coat tails of all the hard work Minnesota Youth Hockey has done to build this great program?

Now I know why Brett Favre wanted to come to Minnesota, to be part of the greatest hockey program in the USA
"TPSH" you really do blow, how do you know that we haven't tried and put significant effort into building our programs? Perhaps "reputable association based programs" and by that I am assuming that you mean single town/city based teams that feed a single HS team are not the right model for our area? We are not looking for any coattails to ride on but then we weren't expecting our brothers in the hockey family to turn your back on us.
What are you afraid of that your teams will lose and your model will be proven to not be the only development model that can be successful? The larger MN associations often have more players to draw from, as evidenced by the number of mite and squirt teams than our entire region of Wisconsin. If your model of "reputable association based programs" is so great I am suprised that you won't play the real Tier 1 / AAA teams from Detroit and Chicago to prove it. Wouldn't it make more sence to allow our teams to play and find their level of competativeness on the ice. Instead you feel the need to Bash us here in Wisconsin. Go ahead crawl back under you rock and hide that's a great way to prove to the rest of us how great the MN model is.

notfromhere · Post by **notfromhere** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:34 am

All I want for my kid is to be able to compete against the best competition possible and get as much ice time as he can, and so he plays AAA in Wisconsin. Yeah, we came out to play in Duluth, but it had nothing to do with "proving AAA is better" or any such nonsense. It was, as it always has been with his team, about scheduling the best competition that they are able to. We had a blast, played some great teams, and met some very nice MN hockey people - just as we have when we come out for spring/summer hockey.

ThePuckStopsHere · Post by **ThePuckStopsHere** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:17 am

XVegan wrote:
ThePuckStopsHere wrote:
XVegan wrote:[
Rather than spending your time whining to Minnesota Hockey because they won't let one of your Wisconsin AAA teams participate in one of our Association Based tournaments, why don't you and some of your cheese-head hockey parents start to build a reputable association based program of your own like Minnesota has?? Or is it just easier to put your hands up and say it can't be done in Wisconsin, and then hope to ride the coat tails of all the hard work Minnesota Youth Hockey has done to build this great program?

Now I know why Brett Favre wanted to come to Minnesota, to be part of the greatest hockey program in the USA
"TPSH" you really do blow, how do you know that we haven't tried and put significant effort into building our programs? Perhaps "reputable association based programs" and by that I am assuming that you mean single town/city based teams that feed a single HS team are not the right model for our area? We are not looking for any coattails to ride on but then we weren't expecting our brothers in the hockey family to turn your back on us.
What are you afraid of that your teams will lose and your model will be proven to not be the only development model that can be successful? The larger MN associations often have more players to draw from, as evidenced by the number of mite and squirt teams than our entire region of Wisconsin. If your model of "reputable association based programs" is so great I am suprised that you won't play the real Tier 1 / AAA teams from Detroit and Chicago to prove it. Wouldn't it make more sence to allow our teams to play and find their level of competativeness on the ice. Instead you feel the need to Bash us here in Wisconsin. Go ahead crawl back under you rock and hide that's a great way to prove to the rest of us how great the MN model is.
XVEGAN - You really shouldn't get so angry, maybe you need more greens back in your diet, too much cheese & beer clearly makes you crazy!! Good Luck to you this winter, don't forget your green card if you want to cross our border.

nobama · Post by **nobama** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:56 am

HI HO HITtLeEeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrR

OUR BORDER GIVE IT A REST

XVegan · Post by **XVegan** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:12 pm

ThePuckStopsHere wrote:
XVegan wrote:
XVEGAN - You really shouldn't get so angry, maybe you need more greens back in your diet, too much cheese & beer clearly makes you crazy!! Good Luck to you this winter, don't forget your green card if you want to cross our border.
"ThePuckStopsHere", Thanks for the Dietary advice I will certainly try to keep my fruit and veggies quota up, it has always been my observation that it is the moderate intake of Wisconsin cheese and good beer that keeps us calm and sane.
I will keep my passport ready. I always thought a USA hockey card and team registration was sufficient for intrastate play but I will now request the appropriate "VISA" from MN Hockey and out of country travel form from USAH if we travel to MN in the future.

buttend · Post by **buttend** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:14 pm

QuackerTracker wrote:
Night Train wrote:Interesting post but can you be more specific. I couldn't find anything on the MN Hockey Web site.

http://www.minnesotahockey.org/

Are you saying winter season AAA teams can't play in winter season association tournaments in MN? I would agree that playing these teams is a challenge and usually fun for the kids.

No Colorado Thunderbirds in the Edina Tourney?
No Fire teams in the Bloomington and Burnsville Tourneys?
Several Colorado teams, AA and AAA, have been coming to Minnesota in recent years for better competition for their players. Are you saying no longer allowed?

Can you point us to a particular document, rule, etc?
That is correct that the Fire and Colorado teams would not be allowed in Bloom and Burns.

This was passed down to the D6 officiating associations and we where told that we would be subject to fines and susspensions from Minn Hock if we officiated any games with AAA teams (this will be hard to do since we are not employees of Minn Hock). We where told that the ruling came from Minn Hock. Funny they don't have any meeting minutes posted after June.

It could be D6 passing the ruling but Brad Hewitt is claim it is a MN Hock thinkg

Quacker,

If you are looking to ref AAA games. The 97 Fire is hosting a weekend event in Somerset 11/13-15. The Fire, Madison Capitals, Edina, EP and Wayzata PWA will all be playing. I'm sure they will need USA certified refs.... Should be some great games!

CoachCleats · Post by **CoachCleats** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:48 pm

No need to worry about the fire invading your holiday tourney - they are hosting their own tournament right here in good old minnesota

Nov 27-29 Shattuck St Marys

So much for closed borders

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:41 am

CoachCleats wrote:No need to worry about the fire invading your holiday tourney - they are hosting their own tournament right here in good old minnesota

Nov 27-29 Shattuck St Marys

So much for closed borders

The Fire would not be allowed to host a tournament in MN. Only MN assn are allowed to host invitatinal tourneys.
Shattuck or Fairbault could host it with the Fire actually running the tournament, but it still needs to go through District 4 and teh MH tournament committee.

buttend · Post by **buttend** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:25 pm

elliott70 wrote:
CoachCleats wrote:No need to worry about the fire invading your holiday tourney - they are hosting their own tournament right here in good old minnesota

Nov 27-29 Shattuck St Marys

So much for closed borders
The Fire would not be allowed to host a tournament in MN. Only MN assn are allowed to host invitatinal tourneys.
Shattuck or Fairbault could host it with the Fire actually running the tournament, but it still needs to go through District 4 and teh MH tournament committee.

Its not a tournament. Its a "98"round robbin event. No winner! Teams get a chance to play 4 games/different teams. Shattuck provides the ice. Teams/parents get a look at the school and program.

The "97" PWA games in Somerset Wi this weekend are not a tournament. Its just a round robbin where 4 teams play 3 games each against very good teams. 97Fire, 97Capitals, Edina PWA and Wayzata PWA. Great teams, sure to be great games. Come out watch some great hockey, have some lunch in Stillwater.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:29 pm

buttend wrote:
elliott70 wrote:
CoachCleats wrote:No need to worry about the fire invading your holiday tourney - they are hosting their own tournament right here in good old minnesota

Nov 27-29 Shattuck St Marys

So much for closed borders
The Fire would not be allowed to host a tournament in MN. Only MN assn are allowed to host invitatinal tourneys.
Shattuck or Fairbault could host it with the Fire actually running the tournament, but it still needs to go through District 4 and teh MH tournament committee.

Its not a tournament. Its a "98"round robbin event. No winner! Teams get a chance to play 4 games/different teams. Shattuck provides the ice. Teams/parents get a look at the school and program.

The "97" PWA games in Somerset Wi this weekend are not a tournament. Its just a round robbin where 4 teams play 3 games each against very good teams. 97Fire, 97Capitals, Edina PWA and Wayzata PWA. Great teams, sure to be great games. Come out watch some great hockey, have some lunch in Stillwater.

It sounds like it is a tournament under MH rules.
I would suggest Edina and Wayzata get clarification before attending.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:23 pm

It's just a MN rule, though, right? Those can be disregarded if we use common sense. Besides, it sounds like a jamboree to me.

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:28 pm

This is considered a tournament under USA Hockey rules and if in Somerset should be sanctioned under WAHA and in Mn under Mn Hockey. Buyer beware ask Moorhead what happened about 8 years ago.

X. GAMES, EXHIBITION GAMES, INVITATIONAL TOURNAMENTS AND SANCTIONED EVENTS
In order to be eligible to be awarded USA Hockey sanctioned events beginning in the 2009-10 playing season, it is strongly recommended that a facility shall be a member and register all of its ice hockey programs/leagues with USA Hockey (i.e., district/affiliate tournaments, national tournaments, coaching/officiating clinics, etc.).
Definition of a Game: An ice hockey game is a match played against another team which is registered with USA Hockey or a member organization of the IIHF. USA Hockey playing rules or approved modification thereof shall apply.
Registered USA Hockey ice hockey teams shall not participate in games against non-registered teams without prior written approval of the appropriate registrar. The district risk manager and district referee-in-chief shall receive a copy of such written approval. Violation of this rule shall subject the team to suspension by the appropriate affiliate.
Definition of a Tournament: Ice hockey competition, other than normally scheduled league or exhibition games, where three or more legally-registered teams compete within a specified time frame for the purpose of declaring a champion. This shall include gatherings consisting of more than three (3) teams, except Association Exchanges (limited to two (2) Associations), even though there are no winners declared.
All invitational ice hockey tournaments that involve USA Hockey registered teams and/or another amateur hockey federation or association must receive the sanction of the appropriate registrar for the district where the tournament will be held.

Annual Guide
139
By definition what you are talking is a tournament

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:38 pm

Definition of a Tournament: Ice hockey competition, other than normally scheduled league or exhibition games, where three or more legally-registered teams compete within a specified time frame for the purpose of declaring a champion. This shall include gatherings consisting of more than three (3) teams, except Association Exchanges (limited to two (2) Associations), even though there are no winners declared.

What group of geniuses (genii?) came up with double talk like that?

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:43 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:It's just a MN rule, though, right? Those can be disregarded if we use common sense. Besides, it sounds like a jamboree to me.

Unfortunately, this is not a common sense rule.
Jamboree is a mite term.
Beyond mites, if you call it a jamboree it is a tournament.

Just be careful and find out in advance or take a chance.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:45 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:
Definition of a Tournament: Ice hockey competition, other than normally scheduled league or exhibition games, where three or more legally-registered teams compete within a specified time frame for the purpose of declaring a champion. This shall include gatherings consisting of more than three (3) teams, except Association Exchanges (limited to two (2) Associations), even though there are no winners declared.
What group of geniuses (genii?) came up with double talk like that?

I do not know and I am not going to research it.
Its like diving into the water, find out what is down there first.

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:47 pm

The wording is out of the USA Hockey Annual Guide and was written by USA Hockey

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:02 pm

XI. INVITATIONAL TOURNAMENT SANCTIONING A. All invitational tournaments that involve teams from more than one MH district, including tournaments played outdoors on natural ice, must be sanctioned by MH. If the tournament will include teams from outside MH, then USA Hockey sanction is also required.
B. An Association and/or a MH District may conduct special events as authorized by the District Director, provided that only teams from within that district participate. Special events authorized by the District

Director must follow all rules for sanctioning invitational tournaments except that there is no sanction fee and these events are not subject to the January 15th sanctioning deadline. Any event involving three or more teams, excluding regularly scheduled league games, is considered to be an invitational tournament, unless the teams are all from the same district and/or the event has been authorized as a special event

Page 32-33 from the MN Handbook.

Rule applies to invitational host and participants, regardless of where the event takes place.

iwearmysunglassesatnight · Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:40 pm

Rules for these type of things have ways to be worked around.
Just like those silly state roster requirements. It's all good. Let's play.

ThePuckStopsHere · Post by **ThePuckStopsHere** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:44 pm

iwearmysunglassesatnight wrote:Rules for these type of things have ways to be worked around.
Just like those silly state roster requirements. It's all good. Let's play.

Kind of like one of your so called Wisconsin players on the 99 Fire team is actually a Minnesota kid who's parents are renting an apartment in Somerset but still schools in Minnesota

Now thats an expensive work around

InTheKnow · Post by **InTheKnow** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:31 pm

You MN Hockey guys and your rules and regulations are something else. This coming weekend in Somerset some Minnesota teams are playing the Madison Caps and the Fire.

Saturday the Fire will play Wayzata and Madison. Edina will play Madison and Wayzata. On Sunday Madison will play Eden Prairie and Edina will play the Fire.

This does not sound like a tournament to me, just some teams getting together to play some games. What a crime.

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:08 pm

Since some are in disagreement with some of the rules,here is one more found in Article V. G. summary is that for a USA/MN registered team to participate in an Inter-State tournament they must have permission for their District Director. This is found on page 17 in the Mn Hockey Handbook.
I do hope that this get together which follows all of the requirements is properly registered as a tournament, the only team with nothing to lose is the Fire.
The Centennial A Bantam pre-season preview has been registered as a tournament every year, by Mn Hockey.

buttend · Post by **buttend** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:20 pm

InTheKnow wrote:You MN Hockey guys and your rules and regulations are something else. This coming weekend in Somerset some Minnesota teams are playing the Madison Caps and the Fire.

Saturday the Fire will play Wayzata and Madison. Edina will play Madison and Wayzata. On Sunday Madison will play Eden Prairie and Edina will play the Fire.

This does not sound like a tournament to me, just some teams getting together to play some games. What a crime.

InTheKnow,

You are not InTheKnow if you dont know about Mn Hockey rules and regulations comrade! This is a tournament! There are more than 3 teams and no winner will be crowned. The fact that 3 teams play 3 scrimmages 1 team plays 2 and 1 team plays 1 scrimmage is more proof that this is a tournament. Permisson from the Kremlin will be required before any team plays. Make sure you bring your USA registration for each player. You have to prove each and every player has that critical but wonderful USA Hockey Insurance policy that does not pay out unless your out of pocket expenses go above $5000.+ 100's of other stipulations.

InTheKnow · Post by **InTheKnow** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:40 pm

I guess my definition of a tournament and MN Hockey's is totally different. In a real tournament you have a set number of teams playing for a championship, not a couple of teams playing games for fun. The fact that the games are being played in WI probably doesn't make any difference. The bottom line is why is Mn Hockey making such a big deal about association teams scrimmaging Tier 1 teams.

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