Seniors on JV?

nutz4hockey · Post by **nutz4hockey** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:52 am

I'd like to get feed back on whether or not seniors should be allowed to play jv hockey. My daughter played 3 years on the jv team and failed to make the varsity roster this year and was cut by the new coaching staff. The program kept some very good 8th graders but no 7th graders. Also, most of the jv teams we played in past years (including powerhouse programs) carried at least 1 senior and often more. Thanks for your input

gmom29 · Post by **gmom29** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:11 am

nutz4hockey wrote:I'd like to get feed back on whether or not seniors should be allowed to play jv hockey. My daughter played 3 years on the jv team and failed to make the varsity roster this year and was cut by the new coaching staff. The program kept some very good 8th graders but no 7th graders. Also, most of the jv teams we played in past years (including powerhouse programs) carried at least 1 senior and often more. Thanks for your input

We have had seniors on our JV and I would have to say they were a plus good leaders, but we also have never had to cut a kid from our program.

iceage · Post by **iceage** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:25 am

nutz4hockey wrote:I'd like to get feed back on whether or not seniors should be allowed to play jv hockey. My daughter played 3 years on the jv team and failed to make the varsity roster this year and was cut by the new coaching staff. The program kept some very good 8th graders but no 7th graders. Also, most of the jv teams we played in past years (including powerhouse programs) carried at least 1 senior and often more. Thanks for your input

Many schools leave it up to the senior as to whether or not they want to play JV......usually the numbers are a couple at most. As a development squad you would not want high numbers of seniors on the JVs. On the other hand, there should be an outlet for kids that want to play hockey who don't make varsity or JVs. Perhaps a league should be allowed for this purpose.

dumb blonde · Post by **dumb blonde** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:35 pm

There is a league for HS girls to continue playing hockey. MN Hockey has a 19U league that is run through the associations much like Jr. Gold. There are a few metro teams participating but it would be great if there were more teams. As the number of girls playing the game increases maybe there will be growth within this league.

Homer · Post by **Homer** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:07 pm

I would like to see more older girls stick w/ HS hockey. The name says it all HIGH SCHOOL hockey. All HS players should be welcomed not turned away. Plus the more HS aged players stick around, the fewer number of 7th and 8th greaders will be pushed up too early, because of numbers.

I think the majority of these middle schoolers would develop better w/ the extra year at the association level. Of course there are always players who need to move up to be challenged. Just my thoughts

DANCINHOCKEYDAD · Post by **DANCINHOCKEYDAD** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:54 pm

The rule in the Anoka Hennepin School District you can not cut 9-12 graders for 7&8 graders. Must not apply to other school districts.

inthestands · Post by **inthestands** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:15 pm

Opinion, "if" a player has been involved with hockey from youth level on up there should be a place for them to play.

Cutting someone that has put up to 14 years of their young life into a sport they won't get to enjoy again, is a bad message to send.

They were good enough to play through all those younger years with their peer group, and should be allowed "at least a spot on the roster" for their final year of high school participation.

OntheEdge · Post by **OntheEdge** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:39 pm

inthestands wrote:Opinion, "if" a player has been involved with hockey from youth level on up there should be a place for them to play.

Cutting someone that has put up to 14 years of their young life into a sport they won't get to enjoy again, is a bad message to send.

They were good enough to play through all those younger years with their peer group, and should be allowed "at least a spot on the roster" for their final year of high school participation.

I understand your point and I have much sympathy for girls that have put so much time and effort into a program but just don't really fit into the mix, however, I'm not sure it is practical to keep all seniors in all situations. It depends on the program. Some programs definitely have room for a dedicated senior hockey player and should keep her. Other programs have too many such girls and it isn't practical to keep them all or even one if the numbers are to large. There are some coaches that if it is at all possible, they will keep a senior on varsity. That works if you have room but what about a situation where you are displacing a better player to keep the senior. Is is fair to the more talented player to keep her off varsity? Is it fair to the rest of the players that want to have the best team possible? Is the senior a strong lockerroom presence and a good team leader? Will the senior (or her parents) be disruptive if she doesn't play much? I think all of these questions must be asked and answered before deciding what to do. Thankfully the 19U program is making it a little easier to cut a senior if necessary.

GR3343 · Post by **GR3343** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:51 pm

inthestands wrote:Opinion, "if" a player has been involved with hockey from youth level on up there should be a place for them to play.

Cutting someone that has put up to 14 years of their young life into a sport they won't get to enjoy again, is a bad message to send.

They were good enough to play through all those younger years with their peer group, and should be allowed "at least a spot on the roster" for their final year of high school participation.

Try having a soph that has been in the youth program since age 10 and is now the only player in the the system that has been cut. Not a numbers release either as there is no 14u program which is the level she should be playing and there is 29 or 30 players at the high school level for both A and B including 7th and 8th graders.

inthestands · Post by **inthestands** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:10 am

Rostering options allow these players to remain on the team, if they so choose. It's not an issue of playing time at that point, it's being part of something they've participatin their entire young lives.

There are many lessons these players will learn once their high school days are behind them. Being told they are not needed any longer isn't one they deserve during their final year at that level.

Let me emphasize, keeping these players will not stop another player from "making the team". This isn't about who plays 4th line, JV, or even dresses, it's about being part of something these players have been involved in since 4 and 5 years old.

Boys and girls alike deserve better from the current leadership in these systems.

OntheEdge · Post by **OntheEdge** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:50 am

inthestands wrote:Rostering options allow these players to remain on the team, if they so choose. It's not an issue of playing time at that point, it's being part of something they've participatin their entire young lives.

There are many lessons these players will learn once their high school days are behind them. Being told they are not needed any longer isn't one they deserve during their final year at that level.

Let me emphasize, keeping these players will not stop another player from "making the team". This isn't about who plays 4th line, JV, or even dresses, it's about being part of something these players have been involved in since 4 and 5 years old.

Boys and girls alike deserve better from the current leadership in these systems.

On paper what you are saying makes perfect sense but I don't think its that simple. Did you ever read the book, "Blades of Glory" by John Rosengren? Its a nice composite of one season with the Bloomington Jefferson boys program and their legendary coach Tom Saterdalen. In the book, Tom Saterdalen says that cutting seniors is the hardest thing he did every year especially when kids and their parents had been longtime contributors to the program. He talks about how at one time he decided to take a few seniors that wouldn't play. He explained to the kids and parents that he would take them along for the ride but they wouldn't play to which everyone was happy to be part of the program. As the season wore on one of the parents griped a lot and became disgruntled. After that season Saterdalen decided that he would never do that again. I think keeping a senior that will not play is a facts and circumstances case. Will the senior and her parents be happy knowing that she will be sitting the pines all year? Will they become disgruntled? Even though being cut is painful will the senior have a more enjoyable experience playing somewhere such as 19U? I think every situation is unique.

inthestands · Post by **inthestands** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:58 am

I think every situation is unique

And each school is unique as well. Large schools as they compare to smaller schools, girls to boys, and all the other situations. It's a delicate environment, that needs the appropriate thought process and attention.

Too often coaches get into the situation of cutting players without the proper preparation, and handle it poorly. In "most" cases the coach already knows which players will face that option long before the season starts. When it's not dealt with appropriately, it makes the end result all that much worse.

It's a tough decision, that needs the proper delivery if and when it happens to ensure a decent outcome. That many times isn't the case. When options are available that's a bit different scenario, I'm talking about situations where the HS program is the only option.

No matter what, it's hard on the coaching staff, the program, and the all the players.

nutz4hockey · Post by **nutz4hockey** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:04 pm

Thank you to all who have taken the time to share their views. It has helped my daughter deal with the disappointment that she was not allowed to skate jv as senior because it was perceived as 'unprofessional' by the new coaching regime. On a personal level I felt she should of had the opportunity to play if she chose (which she would of) given her commitment and contributions (on and off the ice) to the program the 3 previous years. Thanks again.

council member retired · Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:39 pm

[quote="nutz4hockey"]Thank you to all who have taken the time to share their views. It has helped my daughter deal with the disappointment that she was not allowed to skate jv as senior because it was perceived as 'unprofessional' by the new coaching regime. On a personal level I felt she should of had the opportunity to play if she chose (which she would of) given her commitment and contributions (on and off the ice) to the program the 3 previous years. Thanks again.[/quote]

I am sorry this happened. I hope tomorrow will be a better day.

Homer · Post by **Homer** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:36 am

Hey, Nutz
I don't know where your from, but White Bear is forming a 19u team. I know the coach and he is a great guy. He would definately make her feel more than welcome.
I am not sure if this is still accurate but I was told, they were going to practice one night a week (probably Wednesday, because of religion conflicts for the younger teams) and I believe a game or two a week and no out of town tourney. If your close and she still wants to play, give them a call, or check the website.

no_shaft · Post by **no_shaft** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:52 pm

Cottage Grove also has a 19U team. They have only had 1 practice so far and would accept new players. You can get contact info at www.cghockey.com
The competition at this level has improved each year over the past 4 years. Since there aren't many MN teams, the Cottage Grove team plays against some WI varsity teams and the matchups are usually very good.

OntheEdge · Post by **OntheEdge** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:02 pm

no_shaft wrote:Cottage Grove also has a 19U team. They have only had 1 practice so far and would accept new players. You can get contact info at www.cghockey.com
The competition at this level has improved each year over the past 4 years. Since there aren't many MN teams, the Cottage Grove team plays against some WI varsity teams and the matchups are usually very good.

I also think there are 19U teams in Eden Prairie, Maple Grove and Edina (the last 2 years Edina has had 2 teams).

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:19 pm

inthestands wrote:Opinion, "if" a player has been involved with hockey from youth level on up there should be a place for them to play.

Cutting someone that has put up to 14 years of their young life into a sport they won't get to enjoy again, is a bad message to send.

They were good enough to play through all those younger years with their peer group, and should be allowed "at least a spot on the roster" for their final year of high school participation.

Do you have the same opinion for Boys HS hockey? Many boys programs don't allow, or strongly discourage, seniors from the JV team.

As far as "sending the message"....getting cut can be a good life lesson. It gives the kid a chance to learn how to deal with disappointment. Boys have to deal with it, so should girls.

Melvin44 · Post by **Melvin44** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:26 am

muckandgrind wrote:
inthestands wrote:Opinion, "if" a player has been involved with hockey from youth level on up there should be a place for them to play.

Cutting someone that has put up to 14 years of their young life into a sport they won't get to enjoy again, is a bad message to send.

They were good enough to play through all those younger years with their peer group, and should be allowed "at least a spot on the roster" for their final year of high school participation.
Do you have the same opinion for Boys HS hockey? Many boys programs don't allow, or strongly discourage, seniors from the JV team.

As far as "sending the message"....getting cut can be a good life lesson. It gives the kid a chance to learn how to deal with disappointment. Boys have to deal with it, so should girls.

Let's see. Boys have WAY more options and not even close to being the same situation. I think it's more impotant to give these girls a chance to keep playing hockey and being a part of a team.

Homer · Post by **Homer** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:47 am

I think you have tryouts for a reason, to take the best players on the ice during that time. If senior falls into the top 30 or however many kids the
HS program is taking, then he or she should be placed on the squad. No matter what grade they are in. Who's to say the freshman you take, when you tell a senior they aren't wanted, will ever move to varsity.

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:43 pm

Melvin44 wrote:
muckandgrind wrote:
inthestands wrote:Opinion, "if" a player has been involved with hockey from youth level on up there should be a place for them to play.

Cutting someone that has put up to 14 years of their young life into a sport they won't get to enjoy again, is a bad message to send.

They were good enough to play through all those younger years with their peer group, and should be allowed "at least a spot on the roster" for their final year of high school participation.
Do you have the same opinion for Boys HS hockey? Many boys programs don't allow, or strongly discourage, seniors from the JV team.

As far as "sending the message"....getting cut can be a good life lesson. It gives the kid a chance to learn how to deal with disappointment. Boys have to deal with it, so should girls.
Let's see. Boys have WAY more options and not even close to being the same situation. I think it's more impotant to give these girls a chance to keep playing hockey and being a part of a team.

Really? Girls have U19 programs (equivalent to Junior Gold for boys), as well as the WHAM league .... There are more and more girls/woman's leagues forming all the time. Does the XL league allow girls to play? If not, they will probably soon. If the girl wants to keep playing hockey, she will have options available to her.

I don't think that girls need to be any more coddled than boys. Like I said before, being able to handle the results of a tryout is a valuable experience for these kids to experience...it helps prepare them for the real world when they might not get that job they interviewed (tried out) for, or might not get into that college they applied (tried out) for. Getting cut from a HS team is not the end of the world and has happened to literally millions of students as some point.....I don't believe that girls are somehow less able to deal with being cut than boys are..

Junior Varsity should be considered a developmental program for future varsity players and should be restricted to 9-11 graders..IMO, seniors shouldn't be on that team, unless the numbers are so small that they need the seniors to fill out the team.

OntheEdge · Post by **OntheEdge** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:05 pm

muckandgrind wrote:
Melvin44 wrote:
muckandgrind wrote: Do you have the same opinion for Boys HS hockey? Many boys programs don't allow, or strongly discourage, seniors from the JV team.

As far as "sending the message"....getting cut can be a good life lesson. It gives the kid a chance to learn how to deal with disappointment. Boys have to deal with it, so should girls.
Let's see. Boys have WAY more options and not even close to being the same situation. I think it's more impotant to give these girls a chance to keep playing hockey and being a part of a team.
Really? Girls have U19 programs (equivalent to Junior Gold for boys), as well as the WHAM league .... There are more and more girls/woman's leagues forming all the time. Does the XL league allow girls to play? If not, they will probably soon. If the girl wants to keep playing hockey, she will have options available to her.

I don't think that girls need to be any more coddled than boys. Like I said before, being able to handle the results of a tryout is a valuable experience for these kids to experience...it helps prepare them for the real world when they might not get that job they interviewed (tried out) for, or might not get into that college they applied (tried out) for. Getting cut from a HS team is not the end of the world and has happened to literally millions of students as some point.....I don't believe that girls are somehow less able to deal with being cut than boys are..

Junior Varsity should be considered a developmental program for future varsity players and should be restricted to 9-11 graders..IMO, seniors shouldn't be on that team, unless the numbers are so small that they need the seniors to fill out the team.

Again I have to say that every situation is different and unique but IMO if a girls program is big enough and keeping a senior on JV drops a younger better player then I agree with muckandgrind. If there aren't enough players I don't see any problem with putting a senior on JV.

Homer · Post by **Homer** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:07 am

muckandgrind wrote:
Melvin44 wrote:
muckandgrind wrote: Do you have the same opinion for Boys HS hockey? Many boys programs don't allow, or strongly discourage, seniors from the JV team.

As far as "sending the message"....getting cut can be a good life lesson. It gives the kid a chance to learn how to deal with disappointment. Boys have to deal with it, so should girls.
Let's see. Boys have WAY more options and not even close to being the same situation. I think it's more impotant to give these girls a chance to keep playing hockey and being a part of a team.
Really? Girls have U19 programs (equivalent to Junior Gold for boys), as well as the WHAM league .... There are more and more girls/woman's leagues forming all the time. Does the XL league allow girls to play? If not, they will probably soon. If the girl wants to keep playing hockey, she will have options available to her.

I don't think that girls need to be any more coddled than boys. Like I said before, being able to handle the results of a tryout is a valuable experience for these kids to experience...it helps prepare them for the real world when they might not get that job they interviewed (tried out) for, or might not get into that college they applied (tried out) for. Getting cut from a HS team is not the end of the world and has happened to literally millions of students as some point.....I don't believe that girls are somehow less able to deal with being cut than boys are..

Junior Varsity should be considered a developmental program for future varsity players and should be restricted to 9-11 graders..IMO, seniors shouldn't be on that team, unless the numbers are so small that they need the seniors to fill out the team.

C'mon muck,comparing Jr.Gold to the 8-9 team 19u league is a little ridiculous, right now. I hope it becomes a more equal comparison.

Homer · Post by **Homer** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:09 am

muckandgrind wrote:
Melvin44 wrote:
muckandgrind wrote: Do you have the same opinion for Boys HS hockey? Many boys programs don't allow, or strongly discourage, seniors from the JV team.

As far as "sending the message"....getting cut can be a good life lesson. It gives the kid a chance to learn how to deal with disappointment. Boys have to deal with it, so should girls.
Let's see. Boys have WAY more options and not even close to being the same situation. I think it's more impotant to give these girls a chance to keep playing hockey and being a part of a team.
Really? Girls have U19 programs (equivalent to Junior Gold for boys), as well as the WHAM league .... There are more and more girls/woman's leagues forming all the time. Does the XL league allow girls to play? If not, they will probably soon. If the girl wants to keep playing hockey, she will have options available to her.

I don't think that girls need to be any more coddled than boys. Like I said before, being able to handle the results of a tryout is a valuable experience for these kids to experience...it helps prepare them for the real world when they might not get that job they interviewed (tried out) for, or might not get into that college they applied (tried out) for. Getting cut from a HS team is not the end of the world and has happened to literally millions of students as some point.....I don't believe that girls are somehow less able to deal with being cut than boys are..

Junior Varsity should be considered a developmental program for future varsity players and should be restricted to 9-11 graders..IMO, seniors shouldn't be on that team, unless the numbers are so small that they need the seniors to fill out the team.

C'mon muck,comparing Jr.Gold to the 8-9 team 19u league is a little ridiculous, right now. I hope it becomes a more equal comparison.

hipcheck · Post by **hipcheck** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:06 am

Whenever a player tries out for a team, the truthful reality is that they may not make it. If we are upfront with our kids and help them understand that they have a place to play hockey up to their senior year all goes well. Upon arriving at their senior year, they must make the grade in order to play. Jv is an option if the numbers warrant it. If bountiful underclassmen are there, then the senior may have to end their carreer at that point.

For many players, they are told at a much younger age that they do not make the grade, so at what point does reality sink in. For some it will be their senior year. Not easy to deal with, but nontheless, reality.

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