New District 11 Policy

[ilike2score]

It is my understanding that District 11 adopted a new policy for the "B" level of play for this upcoming season. The new rule states if an Association fields more than one team at the "B" level they will be divided equally by skill/talent. Keep in mind District 11 has zero "C" Level. I am wondering others thoughts on this, and would it work in the Metro area? I am not sure I understand the reasoning? I would think all districts in the state should play by the same rules. And yes I understand that what works in District 6 or District 10 or District 16 might not work in District 11. But when all Districts are aspiring to State Tourneys, the rules to get there should be the same for all.

[northernlaker]

I believe they did this because it is " easy " for the powers that be ( daha leader ) to not take the heat for little Johnny playing B2's. This way there is no heat and can he can keep his job. From what i understand, it was put to a vote at a district meeting, and why wouldn't the Silver Bay's, Cloquet's, Moose Lake's and Proctor's of the district want the others to be weaker?

The powers that be just made the district weaker........

[noonespecial]

if the teams were split equally, like there was suppose to be, they should be competitive. It was voted by all of district 11 to do this. But then again, just showing politics in winter hockey if the teams are not split equally

[northernlaker]

Take Duluth for example, the Duluth association you have 40 skaters and you take 14 for pw a team, then split the rest in half equally- those teams will not be competitve.

What you do is water the teams down. Say what you will, but at the end of the day you have 2 teams that are gonna struggle.

The bottom line is the powers that be don't want to deal with little johnny's parents complaining. And i know for a fact not all the district rep's were there for the vote. I guess shame on the folks who did not show up.

[ilike2score]

My understanding is this was a D11 driven agenda and Not a duluth idea. I was not aware there was a vote, but I have personally spoken to people from Duluth, Cloquet, Hermantown, Proctor, and Superior Wi (they play in D 11) and they all stated their associations were against this proposal because it would be the only district in the state with this rule. I do believe you are right about the reasoning for the rule. It stems from the B2 players who ultimately get cut twice in one week, once from the A team and second from the B1 team.

[RonGerth]

So now the B2 players (some of whom in other districts would be house team kids) are going to wind up on the ice with kids who should be playing at an A level and would be if their club was large enough to have an A team. The only ones who are really gonna win here are the smaller clubs who have those 3 or 4 kids who are A level but since they do not have enough A level kids to have an A team they have a B team. The rotations are going to result in A kids playing house kids which will get kids hurt and/or result in the house kids getting scored on pretty much any time they step on the ice. The 2 choices the coaches are going to have in those games are going to be either shortening the bench to protect both the house level kid and the team (in which case little Johnny's parents are really gonna squeal when their kid does not get the ice time he or she deserves) or just keeping a rotation going and throwing the house kids to the wolves in which case the other parents on the team are gonna go nuts because the coaches are giving up and the team as a whole is going to get smoked, repeatedly. It is a lose, lose proposition that is going to be terrible for all involved and is going to drive some of those late blooming or late starting kids out of the sport.

[ImissMYhockey]

So now the B2 players (some of whom in other districts would be house team kids) are going to wind up on the ice with kids who should be playing at an A level and would be if their club was large enough to have an A team. The only ones who are really gonna win here are the smaller clubs who have those 3 or 4 kids who are A level but since they do not have enough A level kids to have an A team they have a B team. The rotations are going to result in A kids playing house kids which will get kids hurt and/or result in the house kids getting scored on pretty much any time they step on the ice. The 2 choices the coaches are going to have in those games are going to be either shortening the bench to protect both the house level kid and the team (in which case little Johnny's parents are really gonna squeal when their kid does not get the ice time he or she deserves) or just keeping a rotation going and throwing the house kids to the wolves in which case the other parents on the team are gonna go nuts because the coaches are giving up and the team as a whole is going to get smoked, repeatedly. It is a lose, lose proposition that is going to be terrible for all involved and is going to drive some of those late blooming or late starting kids out of the sport.

I think that you hit the nail on the head here. I think that in Disrtict 11 games, all the teams will be fairly competitive. Teams like Silver Bay and Two Harbors are going to benefit from this because they dont have an A team so now their weak players are going to be playing against other weak players from seperate programs. Where this new rule is really going to hurt the northland is in tournaments where teams will be playing against city teams. Some of the larger teams in the cities will 5 or 6 consisting of 1 A, 1 B1, 2 B2, and 2 C teams or something along these lines. If they have 1 B1 team, they wont have a bad kid on the ice. Sure the District 11 teams will have a few kids that can stay with them, but not enough to keep it close.

[mvhockey12]

Teams with huge programs like Edina, OMG, Eden Praire are killing their competition already this season against their metro area rivals. They are going to come into a tournament up north and just walk everyone. Their 3rd line will compete with most teams 1st line. This decision is definitely a watering down of the district.

It is exactly the parents not wanting little timmy getting hurt because he made the B2 team or whatever. Honestly, this is ridiculous. If your kid is on the lowest team available, it's probably because they aren't very good, they don't care, they don't try and they probably have other things they would rather be doing than playing hockey. Now you are grouping some of those kids with kids who just got cut from playing A hockey, and would probably do well at that level as well. Practices have to be demanding for everybody, espacially if you want the kids to get better so they can make the A team next year. You can't get much better practicing against less talented players and you can't get much better if you just get walked in every practice.

[skills_coach1]

So just for curiosity sake.... What is the best alternative in your opinion to achieve a middle ground... In larger associations, you might still have less than 100 kids in the program but the skill set works best for 1- A, 2- B1, 2- B2s and 1 true C level as well.????

So as I understand it your suggesting the b1's should be split with the most talented kids on one team?

Curious?

[silentbutdeadly3139]

Teams with huge programs like Edina, OMG, Eden Praire are killing their competition already this season against their metro area rivals. They are going to come into a tournament up north and just walk everyone. Their 3rd line will compete with most teams 1st line. This decision is definitely a watering down of the district.

It is exactly the parents not wanting little timmy getting hurt because he made the B2 team or whatever. Honestly, this is ridiculous. If your kid is on the lowest team available, it's probably because they aren't very good, they don't care, they don't try and they probably have other things they would rather be doing than playing hockey. Now you are grouping some of those kids with kids who just got cut from playing A hockey, and would probably do well at that level as well. Practices have to be demanding for everybody, espacially if you want the kids to get better so they can make the A team next year. You can't get much better practicing against less talented players and you can't get much better if you just get walked in every practice.

Wow ... this is a moronic statement. Maybe this is in your house where YOU push your kids into something they may not like but perhaps, just perhaps there are kids who love to play, continue to want to play and try hard but may not have the most talent. I would hope they could still have to opportunity to play on the lowest team available without fear of being judged and subjected to horrible comments from other parents and kids. Bet you would be singing a different tune if this was your kid ... perhaps it is ? Is there not room in hockey for a kid just to play the game for fear of getting "in the way" of other players "development" ? statistics tell us they will all end up in the same place ... playing a beer league not NHL, College

[northwoods oldtimer]

By far the best development model has been, is and will be the A, B, B2 level. The kids know where they stack up and it is just a few parents who get their nose out of whack when their child falls into the B2 category. It would be tough on the coach to run as effective a practice for the range of talent the teams will have in this instance. Too bad the district caved into parents who only see the emotional side of a stigma of B2. that stigma is sad and the adults are the ones who carry it. The kids get the best collective benefit by playing with peers period that will never change. If you are focusing on success than you should reconsider there District 11 you made a real dumb move and one based purely on emotion. You are going to kill development for the B1 and B2 kids by reaching mediocre middle ground B. S.

[muckandgrind]

Teams with huge programs like Edina, OMG, Eden Praire are killing their competition already this season against their metro area rivals. They are going to come into a tournament up north and just walk everyone. Their 3rd line will compete with most teams 1st line. This decision is definitely a watering down of the district.

It is exactly the parents not wanting little timmy getting hurt because he made the B2 team or whatever. Honestly, this is ridiculous. If your kid is on the lowest team available, it's probably because they aren't very good, they don't care, they don't try and they probably have other things they would rather be doing than playing hockey. Now you are grouping some of those kids with kids who just got cut from playing A hockey, and would probably do well at that level as well. Practices have to be demanding for everybody, espacially if you want the kids to get better so they can make the A team next year. You can't get much better practicing against less talented players and you can't get much better if you just get walked in every practice.

Wow ... this is a moronic statement. Maybe this is in your house where YOU push your kids into something they may not like but perhaps, just perhaps there are kids who love to play, continue to want to play and try hard but may not have the most talent. I would hope they could still have to opportunity to play on the lowest team available without fear of being judged and subjected to horrible comments from other parents and kids. Bet you would be singing a different tune if this was your kid ... perhaps it is ? Is there not room in hockey for a kid just to play the game for fear of getting "in the way" of other players "development" ? statistics tell us they will all end up in the same place ... playing a beer league not NHL, College

Of course there is room for these kids...on the B2 and C teams. No shame in that. Kids should be grouped on ability, not spread out to water down the competitive level for everyone.

Associations have to determine what their mission is: to compete or to be purely recreational. There are some programs in the Metro area that choose to be purely recreational (again, no shame in that) and they only run C teams (Edgecumb, Langford, etc.). If an association wants to compete, then they need to set up their teams to give them the best chance of competing.......it ain't rocket science.

[InigoMontoya]

Did D11 have B1 and B2 levels last year, or just A, B and C? From a district's viewpoint, there is an issue within the district schedule if you have a B level - some associations have 1 A team and 1 B team, some have 1 A, 2 B 1C - two equal B teams create more parity in district games, rather than having the B1 team beat up on the other associations and the B2 team get beat up.

[silentbutdeadly3139]

Teams with huge programs like Edina, OMG, Eden Praire are killing their competition already this season against their metro area rivals. They are going to come into a tournament up north and just walk everyone. Their 3rd line will compete with most teams 1st line. This decision is definitely a watering down of the district.

It is exactly the parents not wanting little timmy getting hurt because he made the B2 team or whatever. Honestly, this is ridiculous. If your kid is on the lowest team available, it's probably because they aren't very good, they don't care, they don't try and they probably have other things they would rather be doing than playing hockey. Now you are grouping some of those kids with kids who just got cut from playing A hockey, and would probably do well at that level as well. Practices have to be demanding for everybody, espacially if you want the kids to get better so they can make the A team next year. You can't get much better practicing against less talented players and you can't get much better if you just get walked in every practice.

Wow ... this is a moronic statement. Maybe this is in your house where YOU push your kids into something they may not like but perhaps, just perhaps there are kids who love to play, continue to want to play and try hard but may not have the most talent. I would hope they could still have to opportunity to play on the lowest team available without fear of being judged and subjected to horrible comments from other parents and kids. Bet you would be singing a different tune if this was your kid ... perhaps it is ? Is there not room in hockey for a kid just to play the game for fear of getting "in the way" of other players "development" ? statistics tell us they will all end up in the same place ... playing a beer league not NHL, College

Of course there is room for these kids...on the B2 and C teams. No shame in that. Kids should be grouped on ability, not spread out to water down the competitive level for everyone.

Associations have to determine what their mission is: to compete or to be purely recreational. There are some programs in the Metro area that choose to be purely recreational (again, no shame in that) and they only run C teams (Edgecumb, Langford, etc.). If an association wants to compete, then they need to set up their teams to give them the best chance of competing.......it ain't rocket science.

Read it again - he IS ranting about kids not good enough to be ON THE LOWEST LEVEL AVAILABLE. No shame on B2 and C is right but apparently maybe its not as simple as you would like it to be. I bet this is a common situation with bubble kids in smaller and bigger associations where they have several players that can play at the highest level or in cases of big associations the next highest level but the rest of the players aren't at that level. Then you have parents like this guy complaining cause his kid is "stuck" on the same team with these players holding back his kids "development". I don't know where your from but I believe many smaller associations need all the kids they can get to help financially support the association. If your proposing that associations as a whole should decide to be "recreational" or "competitive" then thats another can of worms as what parents do with kids who want to and can compete.

Edit:
sorry for the rant but its a sore spot when my kid who just wants to play, even on the lowest team available, has to put up with parents who think he is hurting there child's development. like i said statistics say they will all end up in same place ... a beer league not the NHL or college.

[InigoMontoya]

My read is that his rant says there is room for your kid on the B2 team. He doesn't want your B2 kids, and 5 or 6 of his friends, playing with his B1 kid and 5 or 6 of his friends.

He has a point: almost every kid that plays baseball, will wind up playing coed church league slow pitch softball rather than in MLB - however, the kid that can field it at short and chuck it to first doesn't want to see his first baseman move out of the way because he's afraid to get hit by the ball (the first baseman isn't enjoying it much either). Though his point is understood, he could have been less of a dink in his delivery.

[silentbutdeadly3139]

My read is that his rant says there is room for your kid on the B2 team. He doesn't want your B2 kids, and 5 or 6 of his friends, playing with his B1 kid and 5 or 6 of his friends.

He has a point: almost every kid that plays baseball, will wind up playing coed church league slow pitch softball rather than in MLB - however, the kid that can field it at short and chuck it to first doesn't want to see his first baseman move out of the way because he's afraid to get hit by the ball (the first baseman isn't enjoying it much either). Though his point is understood, he could have been less of a dink in his delivery.

I understand the rant to some point but its almost impossible to get away from it. There is no easy answer and again I get the upper level frustration as I have had kids in both situations but this rant was on lowest level - "If your kids on the lowest level its because ....". There will always be a bubble kids and many times more than 1 that parent don't want there kids playing with ... notice i said parents as from my experience the kids are less bothered by it. And there is always the notion that the top level kids don't always remain at the top.

As for the baseball analogy that is why you have right field and travel baseball vs. house baseball ... to get kids to play positions they can and teams with players of closer skills. There is no house hockey so we need to remember this is still a kids game and be more accepting of those that may not have as much talents, including our own, as many times they are needed to fill out a team.

Oh and the stud pitcher really wants the shortstop to be able to make the play deep in the hole and make a strong throw to first ...because the stud pitcher can. Unless you're the best, there is always someone better and you need to rely on and help make others better. Thats also a trait of really good players.

[minorleagr]

Could be worse , Dist 11 could make you field full 15 skater min equal teams like they do in D2 - .. At least your assoc has the option to say " Hey we really only have 12 kids that can grow and play at this level , lets put these kids on the ice and put the others where they belong." Or if you have 24 , 2 equal teams of 12 skaters. Not make you put 3 more B2 kids on each team just to say you have 15 skaters .... You really are not giving these extra kids an opportunity to grow , possibly just the opposite.
This is a great topic and a lot of good responses. This does not necessarily apply to B teams either.. In some cases , I could see a couple larger assoc. have 2 A teams if they were able to field as they saw fit or if Minn Hock had a statewide policy in place.

[mvhockey12]

Did D11 have B1 and B2 levels last year, or just A, B and C? From a district's viewpoint, there is an issue within the district schedule if you have a B level - some associations have 1 A team and 1 B team, some have 1 A, 2 B 1C - two equal B teams create more parity in district games, rather than having the B1 team beat up on the other associations and the B2 team get beat up.

D11 had A, B1 and a couple of B2 teams that went on (at the Bantam level) to districts and at the PeeWee level it was a dead end with no end of year tourney. Nobody had any C teams.

I know the last 3 years the Northern part of Minnesota has tried to put together an end of the year tournament for the B2s in the PeeWee level. But instead of having all the teams play, they just ask and it's a choice for those teams. From what I heard, they get like 8 teams every year. It just isn't the same thing as having a region tournament or state to go to though.

[mvhockey12]

My read is that his rant says there is room for your kid on the B2 team. He doesn't want your B2 kids, and 5 or 6 of his friends, playing with his B1 kid and 5 or 6 of his friends.

He has a point: almost every kid that plays baseball, will wind up playing coed church league slow pitch softball rather than in MLB - however, the kid that can field it at short and chuck it to first doesn't want to see his first baseman move out of the way because he's afraid to get hit by the ball (the first baseman isn't enjoying it much either). Though his point is understood, he could have been less of a dink in his delivery.

Yes, my point was to be that those lower level kids should be able to play, but not at a higher level than their skill level is set at or their mentality toward the sport. Kids who could be playing on an A level team should not have to be playing with/against kids who just can't keep up with the pace of play and should be on a B2 team.

But this decision has been made so everyone needs to deal with the situation and go along with what happens. At least this was a district decision so all the teams are equal.

[elliott70]

Did D11 have B1 and B2 levels last year, or just A, B and C? From a district's viewpoint, there is an issue within the district schedule if you have a B level - some associations have 1 A team and 1 B team, some have 1 A, 2 B 1C - two equal B teams create more parity in district games, rather than having the B1 team beat up on the other associations and the B2 team get beat up.

D11 had A, B1 and a couple of B2 teams that went on (at the Bantam level) to districts and at the PeeWee level it was a dead end with no end of year tourney. Nobody had any C teams.

I know the last 3 years the Northern part of Minnesota has tried to put together an end of the year tournament for the B2s in the PeeWee level. But instead of having all the teams play, they just ask and it's a choice for those teams. From what I heard, they get like 8 teams every year. It just isn't the same thing as having a region tournament or state to go to though.

For the 20 years before that D11, 12, 15 & 16 had a B2 region tournament for bantams and peewees.
Minnesota Hockey said it coould no longer be run as a MH sanctioned region. Various associatins have tried to promote a tourney but it is not working for a few different reasons.

[silentbutdeadly3139]

My read is that his rant says there is room for your kid on the B2 team. He doesn't want your B2 kids, and 5 or 6 of his friends, playing with his B1 kid and 5 or 6 of his friends.

He has a point: almost every kid that plays baseball, will wind up playing coed church league slow pitch softball rather than in MLB - however, the kid that can field it at short and chuck it to first doesn't want to see his first baseman move out of the way because he's afraid to get hit by the ball (the first baseman isn't enjoying it much either). Though his point is understood, he could have been less of a dink in his delivery.

Yes, my point was to be that those lower level kids should be able to play, but not at a higher level than their skill level is set at or their mentality toward the sport. Kids who could be playing on an A level team should not have to be playing with/against kids who just can't keep up with the pace of play and should be on a B2 team.

But this decision has been made so everyone needs to deal with the situation and go along with what happens. At least this was a district decision so all the teams are equal.

nice backtrack but you missed the point bad when you you state "If your kid is on the lowest team available, it's probably because they aren't very good, they don't care, they don't try and they probably have other things they would rather be doing than playing hockey." They would be playing B2. I agree there are different levels and it makes it very difficult when the skill level varies greatly on one team. Unfortunately this may happen and we should make the best of it in order to fill out a team or provide an opportunity to kids who may not be good but still want to play. Thats association hockey.

[mvhockey12]

My read is that his rant says there is room for your kid on the B2 team. He doesn't want your B2 kids, and 5 or 6 of his friends, playing with his B1 kid and 5 or 6 of his friends.

He has a point: almost every kid that plays baseball, will wind up playing coed church league slow pitch softball rather than in MLB - however, the kid that can field it at short and chuck it to first doesn't want to see his first baseman move out of the way because he's afraid to get hit by the ball (the first baseman isn't enjoying it much either). Though his point is understood, he could have been less of a dink in his delivery.

Yes, my point was to be that those lower level kids should be able to play, but not at a higher level than their skill level is set at or their mentality toward the sport. Kids who could be playing on an A level team should not have to be playing with/against kids who just can't keep up with the pace of play and should be on a B2 team.

But this decision has been made so everyone needs to deal with the situation and go along with what happens. At least this was a district decision so all the teams are equal.

nice backtrack but you missed the point bad when you you state "If your kid is on the lowest team available, it's probably because they aren't very good, they don't care, they don't try and they probably have other things they would rather be doing than playing hockey." They would be playing B2. I agree there are different levels and it makes it very difficult when the skill level varies greatly on one team. Unfortunately this may happen and we should make the best of it in order to fill out a team or provide an opportunity to kids who may not be good but still want to play. Thats association hockey.

I never said I wouldn't take it in stride and go with it, I just don't agree with the districts decision in doing this. There should be a B2 level. End of discussion.