12UA Regional Seedings

Pens4 · Post by **Pens4** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:15 am

I started thinking about regional seedings after seeing the tournament scores reported over the weekend (in particular the Roseau tournament) where the metro teams and outstate squads had some really great battles.

Why do our representatives @ Minnesota Hockey believes that Girls hockey teams do not want to travel and play in regional tournaments that include outstate and metro teams???

Do they think that Roseau & Warroad & TRF want to play each other again to move on to the state tournament? Last year Eden Prairie played Burnsville, Minnetonka & Edina Twice in League 6 playoffs. Then a week later played Highland, Minnetonka, Burnsville & Edina in the regionals.

Is there a reason why our advocates at MN Hockey couldn't take and split up the League Tournament Seed's and send #1 & #4 to Region "X" and the #2 & #3 Seeds off to region "Y". If anyone one this board has some insite into why this is not feasible...please explain.

It can't be that hard to accomplish...they put leagues together each year with a unilateral stroke of the brush...well more like a Yahtzee Roll !!

capitalist · Post by **capitalist** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:31 am

I always assumed that the regions were set the way they are to ensure that a couple northern teams got represented at state. Having seen Roseau and TRF in GR I don't believe either would have survived in the National or American region tournaments. However, at state TRF was the feel-good story of the weekend, beating two more 'talented' teams and getting the consolation trophy. So maybe it's a good thing that the north gets a couple spots saved for them.
To your point though, yes, it would be great if they could split up the 4 district teams and send two to a region instead of all 4. That would mean in the two Twin City regions you'd have 2 teams from each of the 4 Leagues, League 10,8,6, and 2.

Pens4 · Post by **Pens4** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:40 am

I agree with a need for a variety of teams represented in the State Tournament. I think that TRF probably would have made it regardless. This year there seems to be some more balance and the outstates have already shown they can beat some of the best metro teams.

Mixing the leagues at regionals will give the experience of a state tournament field to 5 times as many teams.

panpan111 · Post by **panpan111** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:21 pm

It is sad but true that the Olympic Region for 12UA is put together so the Northern Districts have (2) spots "held" for them at state!
The goal of the tournament committee should be to get the best 8 teams in the State to the State Tournament. This could be accomplished by properly seeding teams (Not by Districts, but by Individual Teams) and then you would have balance in all (3) Regions. The end result should deliver the best 8 teams in March to the State Tournament.
If the Northern teams can't compete (which I believe many of them can), then maybe some of the girls playing with the boys will start playing with the girls.
If they think it would be too hard to seed teams, then they need new blood on the committee.

rj04 · Post by **rj04** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:35 pm

pan and pen got it right. I think there is enough cross over games with solid teams making the trip up north and northern teams are driving south with all the tournaments we all play in to seed the teams accordingly. Including the Duluth Icebreakers. We have an obligation to all the girls who work hard, coaches who volunteer, and parents who spend countless hours and money on this sport to make the best state tournament possible. We can accomlish the seeding with minimal effort.

bestbuyer · Post by **bestbuyer** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:43 am

One problem with mixing regions we would end up with a district 3/6 state tournament because they would eliminate all of the northern teams in the region playoffs.

rj04 · Post by **rj04** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:25 am

bestbuyer if we end with the top 8 teams in the state battleing fot the title, then what is the problem? So in you line of thinking it is ok to gaurantee 2 teams from the North a spot at state no matter what? With all the ice and facilities of the northern teams like Warroad/Roseau/Moorhead they can compete. I mean, hockey is a way of life in the North. The regionals as they are, are effective enough. But look at it from the eyes of the team that happens to fall short at regions and has to here that a team they have beaten soundly in the regular season, gets to go to state. Does not seem fair to me. IMHO.

"AGAIN"

sinbin · Post by **sinbin** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:53 am

I agree that "top" 8 teams should play at state. Normally D3, D6, and/or D8 are, right or wrong, discriminated against. However, how will the seedings take place? LPH rankings, a blend of volunteer rankers, do not normally match the actual strength of the teams. E.g., I see a team currently ranked 5th or 6th (not 12U) that defeated the #1 team and one other team ranked ahead of it. Where do we find an impartial seeding process? Computerized program? Coaches locked in a room and hash it out? You'd need to consider recent vs. earlier results, will there be enough cross-over games between northern and metro teams to draw valid conclusions, injuries, etc. Great idea in theory, but what's the best way to do it in practice? Even though the current system is flawed, it at least determines state participants via what happens on the ice.

bestbuyer · Post by **bestbuyer** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:20 pm

Rj04-

As you know you don't always end with the top 8 teams at state. Like last year EP and Wayzata had to stay home. That is why you want to peak at the right time or just get some lucky breaks. Forget about winning 3-4 Tourneys throughout the year it's all about playing your best in late Feb-early March. Give the northern folk a shot and if you don't think they are good consider it a buy if you play them in the first round. Do you think a city team would bring a bus load of fans and two skating mascots to a 12UA game.

Northern Fan

capitalist · Post by **capitalist** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:50 pm

What makes you think Wayzata and EP were two of the top 8 teams in the state?

Burnbabyburn · Post by **Burnbabyburn** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:25 pm

Last year EP was easily one of the top 8 teams. Anyone who thinks otherwise wasn't watching closely enough. They absolutely should have some sort of seeding to get the best 8 teams in that tournament.

This year Edina and EP will have to go through the same district and region on the way to state.

Based on the Minnesota Hockey Handbook: http://s3.amazonaws.com/assets.ngin.com ... ourn_2.pdf

They will carve Districts 1, 2 ,3, 4, 5, 6, 8, & 10 up into the National and American Regions and send 6 teams from those districts. They will send 2 teams from Districts 11, 12, 15 & 16. Now, I haven't done a lot of digging, just a little, but how many 12A teams do they even HAVE in 11,12,15 & 16 combined?

This is a great discussion to have NOW. It would be a better tournament if the best 8 teams got there.

capitalist · Post by **capitalist** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:00 pm

Enlighten us, oh close-watching one, who were the best 8 teams in the state last year? I assume you saw all 52 U12A teams play?

pondhockeyrules · Post by **pondhockeyrules** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:03 pm

I am sure that Roseau, Warroad proved last weekend that there are a couple of strong teams from the north. Roseau beat the #3 ranked team centennial, warroad tied centennial. Roseau tied #4 lakeville and warroad lost by a goal. So i dont understand why u r complaining. Every year will be different. Some years strong some weak. Its really not a state tournament without some out state teams.

Pens4 · Post by **Pens4** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:08 am

pondhockeyrules wrote:I am sure that Roseau, Warroad proved last weekend that there are a couple of strong teams from the north. Roseau beat the #3 ranked team centennial, warroad tied centennial. Roseau tied #4 lakeville and warroad lost by a goal. So i dont understand why u r complaining. Every year will be different. Some years strong some weak. Its really not a state tournament without some out state teams.

As stated earlier...the State tournament field will sort itself out as the hottest teams keep rolling through regionals. The Outstate vs Metro debate is a healthy sign that girls hockey is starting to reach a level of unabated fanticism that the boys side enjoys.

BUT.....I am not talking about mapping out the state tournament. The goal should be to expand the experience of the regional tournament. Imagine after finishing your League tournament that your squad gets a seed in regions that includes 4-6 teams that you have never played. Add to that a road trip to the metro or to an outstate host and now you have a hockey moment. The regional tournaments in girls hockey are just a redo of the district/League tournaments.

For all those naysayers, when your association schedules its holiday tournament...Do you schedule your opening game against a League opponents or do you jump at the chance to schedule a ThunderBay or a Colorado team? The Ice-Breaker was mentioned earlier. They do a good job mixing it up. Our 3 games this year are Anoka, Moorhead & Centennial. All great teams and one's we don't see often....why can't we have that variety at regions?

nmnhockeydad · Post by **nmnhockeydad** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:28 pm

Is not the goal of the state tournaments to crown the best team in each division? I don't think it is to find the best eight teams. The best 12U team regardless of where it is from will beat the teams who fail to make it through any regional. Just make it through your regional and quit complaining. Every team, coaches, players, parents invest the same amount of energy.

Pens4 · Post by **Pens4** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:02 am

nmnhockeydad wrote:Is not the goal of the state tournaments to crown the best team in each division? I don't think it is to find the best eight teams. The best 12U team regardless of where it is from will beat the teams who fail to make it through any regional. Just make it through your regional and quit complaining. Every team, coaches, players, parents invest the same amount of energy.

Thats true. Most put in about the same time and energy but as is your case.... some can't look past their own little world and see the big picture.

sinbin · Post by **sinbin** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Burn, at least this season, both Edina and EP should easily make it to state. I assume that they're taking 3 teams from Regions? If they finish 1 and 2, they should be in opposite sides of the draw. It's early, and other teams will at least have the chance to upset them at state.

drop_the_puck · Post by **drop_the_puck** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:13 am

Burnbabyburn wrote:Now, I haven't done a lot of digging, just a little, but how many 12A teams do they even HAVE in 11,12,15 & 16 combined?

MN D11 Girls 12U A

None

MN D12 Girls 12U A

None

MN D15 Girls 12U A

Alexandria Cardinals 12U A
Brainerd Warriors 12U A
Detroit Lakes Lakers 12U A
Fergus Falls Otters 12U A
Moorhead Spuds 12U A

MN D16 Girls 12U A

Bemidji Lumberjills 12U A
Crookston Pirates 12U A
East Grand Forks 12U A
Roseau Rams 12U A
Thief River Falls 12U A
Warroad Warriors 12U A

Rocket78 · Post by **Rocket78** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:23 pm

Pens4 wrote:
pondhockeyrules wrote:I am sure that Roseau, Warroad proved last weekend that there are a couple of strong teams from the north. Roseau beat the #3 ranked team centennial, warroad tied centennial. Roseau tied #4 lakeville and warroad lost by a goal. So i dont understand why u r complaining. Every year will be different. Some years strong some weak. Its really not a state tournament without some out state teams.

For all those naysayers, when your association schedules its holiday tournament...Do you schedule your opening game against a League opponents or do you jump at the chance to schedule a ThunderBay or a Colorado team? The Ice-Breaker was mentioned earlier. They do a good job mixing it up. Our 3 games this year are Anoka, Moorhead & Centennial. All great teams and one's we don't see often....why can't we have that variety at regions?

When my sons played in regions they played teams they had never met before. When the 14UA Region was in Rocheter the local team played vs mostly D6 teams (I think it was 3-D6, 3-D8 and 2-D?). Pretty sure the MNHockey calls them something other than D6 since the leagues are usually combined districts.

I can't tell you the number of times my kids went up to an invitational tourney and had their opening game against another D8 team! Like Pens, I would rather play a northern Minny or Canadian team. Our local 14U team is going to Brainerd in January and I was told that there will finally be other northern teams besides Brainerd. I heard last year there were 2 other teams from the district 8 combined league so it was not quite the experience that they were hoping for.

Pens4 · Post by **Pens4** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:49 am

The Region's have been determined:

Olympic Region (D11,12,15,16 - 13 Teams)*8 teams to regions
*2 Seeded to State.

American Region (D1,2,5,10 - 23 Teams)*League 2 (D1,2 -11 teams) -3 seeds to Regions
*League 5 (D5 -6 teams) - 2 seeds to Regions.
*League 10 (D10 -9 Teams) - 3 seeds to Regions.
*3 Seeded to State.

National Region (D3,4,6,8 - 24 Teams)*League 3 (D3,6 - 12 teams) - 4 seeded to Regions
*League 8 (D4,8 - 12 teams) - 4 seeded to Regions.
*3 Seeded to State.

At first glance it appeared that it was the same old seeding by MN Hockey but the end result should have some very competitive league and regionals playoffs. It would have been nice if they had split up the Leagues and sent them to separate regions. For example, send the 1 & 4 seeds from league 10 over to the National Region and send 1 & 4 seeds from League 3 over to the American Region.

Regardless, I see some good races.

Olympic Region is numerically the easiest to reach with 8 of 13 teams qualifying. Although the region is not very deep, the competition for the 2 state seeds should be fierce. It should be a three-way race that includes Roseau, Warroad and TRF which have all split their head to head series this season.
American Region is seeded from 3 leagues.
*League 2 has 3 seeds available and Stillwater is the clear favorite. The other two spots will come down to WBL, Roseville or Highland.
*League 5 is weakest of the region and it would be a major upset if NWC and Buffalo were not headed to Richfield.
*League 10 should have Centennial and Anoka locking up 2 of the 3 seeds with Elk River the favorite over the Dark Horses of Blaine and Coon Rapids.
National Region seeds 4 from each league.
*League 8 should send their top two seeds of Woodbury and Lakeville South. The battle for the two remaining spots should be between Cottage Grove, Eagan, Sibley and a dark horse REV.
*League 3 has Edina and Eden Prairie taking two spots and look for Orono and Minnetonka to move on to New Praque. A dark horse could be Chaska.

hockeydudette · Post by **hockeydudette** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:41 pm

i see district five as a four team race right now. yes NWC is undefeated but the three other teams are within two or three games apart hutchinson is the only team to score two goals on NWC and it is quite a race now
NWC
mound-westonka
Buffalo
hutchinson
could be an interesting second half

hs hockey fan · Post by **hs hockey fan** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:11 pm

Pens4 wrote:The Region's have been determined:

Olympic Region (D11,12,15,16 - 13 Teams)*8 teams to regions
*2 Seeded to State.

American Region (D1,2,5,10 - 23 Teams)*League 2 (D1,2 -11 teams) -3 seeds to Regions
*League 5 (D5 -6 teams) - 2 seeds to Regions.
*League 10 (D10 -9 Teams) - 3 seeds to Regions.
*3 Seeded to State.

National Region (D3,4,6,8 - 24 Teams)*League 3 (D3,6 - 12 teams) - 4 seeded to Regions
*League 8 (D4,8 - 12 teams) - 4 seeded to Regions.
*3 Seeded to State.

At first glance it appeared that it was the same old seeding by MN Hockey but the end result should have some very competitive league and regionals playoffs. It would have been nice if they had split up the Leagues and sent them to separate regions. For example, send the 1 & 4 seeds from league 10 over to the National Region and send 1 & 4 seeds from League 3 over to the American Region.

Regardless, I see some good races.

Olympic Region is numerically the easiest to reach with 8 of 13 teams qualifying. Although the region is not very deep, the competition for the 2 state seeds should be fierce. It should be a three-way race that includes Roseau, Warroad and TRF which have all split their head to head series this season.
American Region is seeded from 3 leagues.
*League 2 has 3 seeds available and Stillwater is the clear favorite. The other two spots will come down to WBL, Roseville or Highland.
*League 5 is weakest of the region and it would be a major upset if NWC and Buffalo were not headed to Richfield.
*League 10 should have Centennial and Anoka locking up 2 of the 3 seeds with Elk River the favorite over the Dark Horses of Blaine and Coon Rapids.
National Region seeds 4 from each league.
*League 8 should send their top two seeds of Woodbury and Lakeville South. The battle for the two remaining spots should be between Cottage Grove, Eagan, Sibley and a dark horse REV.
*League 3 has Edina and Eden Prairie taking two spots and look for Orono and Minnetonka to move on to New Praque. A dark horse could be Chaska.

I am assuming this is 12A?

hockeydudette · Post by **hockeydudette** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:02 pm

i think you're right = 12A

HockeyDude13 · Post by **HockeyDude13** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:31 am

Throw Irondale in the mix as one of the teams fighting for the other two spots in League 2. Stillwater is clearly the best team, but Highland isn't far behind them. Irondale tied Stillwater in their second meeting and they are 2-1 versus White Bear, 1-1 versus Roseville and 0-1 (before tonight's game) with Highland.

knights58 · Post by **knights58** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:23 pm

Hockey dudette...Hutch doesn't even have a 12UA team...you must be thinking about 12UB. The 12UA race will be a HUGE miracle if NWC doesn't take it.
Anything is possible..see St. Cloud beating EP....but realistically, NWC will have to have a extrememly poor performance to lose any game in district 5.

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12UA Regional Seedings

12UA Regional Seedings

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