Refs? Is it just me?

[hockeyheaven]

The season isn't long enough now but otherwise the goal for the community, and team, to earn back respect, is to go 10 games with zero penalties. Somehow, right or wrong, and it really doesn't make any difference how, the team has a reputation for not smart play. Change the style of play. The game is called hockey not let's bang some bodies. You're in a deep hole and only good behavior can change the impression that the team plays the game the wrong way. Whether or not you think it's true, that's the impression.

When the coach let's things go early in the year it's hard to get control back later. It's easy. Get a peanalty and sit the rest of the period. Get another and sit the rest of the game.

Additionally, the behavior of one single team in the community can make it difficult for every other team as the word gets out and then every other team is at a disadvantage as the reputation of one team hurts the other 25 teams in the community. they have red flags waving from their uniforms before the game even starts. Respect needs to be earned and right now you're not getting it.

No, No, No. Officials have to approach each game with no preconceived discernment or agenda. Call a game tight or loose, doesn’t matter just be consistent across the board and you don’t have a situation like this one. The WBL team was not taking the preventable, retaliatory type penalties that have plagued them throughout the year and that has given them this so called reputation… that needs to be cleared before they are given the benefit of impartiality. Also, in no way should that be a consideration for how one calls the game…and they shouldn’t have to earn anything back. Their current play should be accessed and then call the infraction when deemed justified. For the sake of this discussion I’m not suggesting the penalties called on WB were incorrect. What I witnessed and thus my perception was a fist period that was called extremely loose. The refs appeared to be letting the two teams play. Given the game significance, I thought it was appropriate…and WB was controlling the play. What gave it that perception of bias was the consecutive borderline… tight calls (not made in the first period) that now were coming fast in furious to only the one team even though both were committing the same offenses. Curiously this seemed to only happen after WB took the lead. This continued well into the third period until it was nothing less then comical. The action from the student (with the attempted bribe) was juvenile at best but seemingly reasonable given what was happening. The only reason why he was not removed… I truly believe was that at that moment this ref finally came to the conclusion that this was his bed he made. The only thing more humorous then the officiating was watching the Stillwater bench. Loss a little respect for the coaching staff…I expected more from the defending champs. Even though they were given every conceivable advantage he was still whining and lobbing for more penalties. Kind of pathetic.

[jumpstart]

The season isn't long enough now but otherwise the goal for the community, and team, to earn back respect, is to go 10 games with zero penalties. Somehow, right or wrong, and it really doesn't make any difference how, the team has a reputation for not smart play. Change the style of play. The game is called hockey not let's bang some bodies. You're in a deep hole and only good behavior can change the impression that the team plays the game the wrong way. Whether or not you think it's true, that's the impression.

When the coach let's things go early in the year it's hard to get control back later. It's easy. Get a peanalty and sit the rest of the period. Get another and sit the rest of the game.

Additionally, the behavior of one single team in the community can make it difficult for every other team as the word gets out and then every other team is at a disadvantage as the reputation of one team hurts the other 25 teams in the community. they have red flags waving from their uniforms before the game even starts. Respect needs to be earned and right now you're not getting it.

I couldn't agree more with you about not taking care of the penalty problem early on in the year, and that the longer it goes, the harder it is to control. A team gets the reputation of taking many penalties, and I think it is hard to overcome that. Other coaches tell their players to get under the skin of the WBL players so they can draw penalties, and referees talk to each other and tend to call more penalties on WBL. I am not trying to make excuses -- just saying it like it is.

I have to question your goal of ten games with zero penalties. I don't think the cleanest team in high school girls hockey could achieve that goal.

I also think you exaggerate the effect one team has on the other 25 teams in the community, especially at a large AA school. I don't believe there is much cross-over in fans between the different sports. In other words, fans who follow basketball don't necessarily even know what the hockey team is doing, and vice versa.

Finally, I would like to remind everyone that there are many terrific girls on the WBL team that simply get caught up in all of this hoopla.

[observer]

I know what you're saying but you are wrong. If you don't think refs speak with one another about individual team behavior, and even individual players, you're wrong. The behavior of one team in the community damages the reputation of all the others deserved or not. Believe me, respect lost is hard to repair and will take a year or two to totally cleanse your reputation.

There is hardly ever a reason any player or coach should ever talk to the refs. It's just not ok. If the players see and hear their coach speaking with the refs then they think it's ok. It's not. I heard about a team with a coach that loved to scream and wave his arms over every call. Guess what, I heard the players took up the same behavior. Where did they learn that.

The refs are invisable and the sooner coaches and players learn to treat them that way the better. Just play the game the right way, and hard, and all of a sudden the refs aren't part of the game. In know, some are power hungry and want to control the game but guess what? I just told you so now you know. Adjust accordingly.

There's an old saying, focus on what you control and not on what you don't. Focus on player behavior (something you control) and forget the refs (something you don't control). Get it?

[hockeywild7]

Has this ref done other WBL games? Heard WB parents saying they have two girls who average 2 penalties a game? Is this true? Why? bad officiating? I like WB's team but don't think they can take it all if they are continuously fighting the penalty bug. It will be interesting to see how many penalties WBL will take in the upcoming game against Roseville.

[observer]

Here's why. Can WBL beat Roseville shorthanded? No. If they play their best game of the season and stay out of the box can they beat Roseville? Yes. Zero penalties is the goal for WBL. Pickup a few power plays and win the game. If any WBL players get a penalty sit them for 2 shifts. Have to break the behavior. There is no discussion regarding dumb, accidental, not worth the risk, just no penalties. Let's see how it goes. I'll go out on a limb, the team with the fewest penalties wins.

[Melvin44]

quote]

I've read thru all these posts and it might just be me, but aren't you getting a little too upset about this? Reffing, good or bad, really has no effect on girl's lives or any of our lives. I have also seen the WBL girls play and they are a decent team. They did take too many penalties and some were ill-timed, but that's hockey. You can't want it more than the girls.[/quote]




Yes, I it can affect girls/boys lives. Most of these girls have trained year round since they've been 10. They've chosen to play for there friends and stay at their high school etc.

To have a person who's supposed to be impartial be totally one sided with a chance to take something away from a team which came determined not to take penalties and come together as a team. They were playing a great clean game.

Do you think winning a huge game is not something special and can make a player feel special for the rest of their lives. It's much better than to have a supposed non partial person take it away. I have great memories which I'll never forget and I think made me a better person. Yes, some kids never get to experience this type of feeling and are just fine as adults. Just why would a guy try to take it away. Let the players decide a game. Be Fair and impartial.

Again I've seen 1000's of games and have never seen anything like this guy.

And again if our team takes bad penalties and can't control it. They deserve to lose. This was not the case.

[Bensonmum]

Vic Brodt:
Bill Schafhauser:

[hockeya1a]

quote]

I've read thru all these posts and it might just be me, but aren't you getting a little too upset about this? Reffing, good or bad, really has no effect on girl's lives or any of our lives. I have also seen the WBL girls play and they are a decent team. They did take too many penalties and some were ill-timed, but that's hockey. You can't want it more than the girls.

Yes, I it can affect girls/boys lives. Most of these girls have trained year round since they've been 10. They've chosen to play for there friends and stay at their high school etc.

To have a person who's supposed to be impartial be totally one sided with a chance to take something away from a team which came determined not to take penalties and come together as a team. They were playing a great clean game.

Do you think winning a huge game is not something special and can make a player feel special for the rest of their lives. It's much better than to have a supposed non partial person take it away. I have great memories which I'll never forget and I think made me a better person. Yes, some kids never get to experience this type of feeling and are just fine as adults. Just why would a guy try to take it away. Let the players decide a game. Be Fair and impartial.

Again I've seen 1000's of games and have never seen anything like this guy.

And again if our team takes bad penalties and can't control it. They deserve to lose. This was not the case.

Refs are adults, and they are paid to be unbiased and unassuming. if they cannot do the job the way it is intended then it is time to get out! They need to remember the players are still just kids and they do make mistakes. A hook by one team should be called the same for the other, along with a trip a slash or any intent to injure (that one really gets me the most)….. thank you for letting me vent, I am sure I am now good untill the next game.

[hockeyheaven]

Vic Brodt:
Bill Schafhauser:

Maybe, but after 2/20

[talkhockey]

After the first time these two teams met (Bears win), Stillwater coach was reported in the local rag as stating that they basically loss the game because of poor play on their part. Giving no real credit to White Bear Lake. It would be interesting to read his take after this one.

[hockeywild7]

To say the refs where completely one sided is BS. I too have played, coached and watched 1000's of games. Look at WB's history this season, no one seems to want to talk about that. They have a history of taking many penalties this was nothing new. Have the refs been one sided all the other games too or just this one? I just find it funny how you completely ignore this. How many minutes in penalties do these players have? Everyone seems to know so much them, lets have some facts. Yes, Stillwater could have been called for a couple penalties I saw the officials miss, but it wasn't 5 or 6 and they missed some against WB too. Penalties were 11-3 and a couple of those were coincidental. Why did WB get TWO 10 minute misconducts? What about Hastings? Heard that was a fiasco too.

[Melvin44]

To say the refs where completely one sided is BS. I too have played, coached and watched 1000's of games. Look at WB's history this season, no one seems to want to talk about that. They have a history of taking many penalties this was nothing new. Have the refs been one sided all the other games too or just this one? I just find it funny how you completely ignore this. How many minutes in penalties do these players have? Everyone seems to know so much them, lets have some facts. Yes, Stillwater could have been called for a couple penalties I saw the officials miss, but it wasn't 5 or 6 and they missed some against WB too. Penalties were 11-3 and a couple of those were coincidental. Why did WB get TWO 10 minute misconducts? What about Hastings? Heard that was a fiasco too.

Get your facts straight.

Yes, this ref has been bad all year. Just not this bad. He should be ashamed. He was completely one sided. Like I said I also heard this from RV, SSP, HM and even honest STW fans.

Only one penalty was coincidental and you must have seen the wrong game. The only penalty the girls you’re questioning received was the 10 minute for slamming her stick for a change.

You're just mad because even though your STW team had 20 minutes in PP given by your homer ref. They still couldn't get the job done and were even out shot! There were at least 5 or 6 penalties missed and if you take into consideration the ridiculous penalties called against WBL and then called the same way for STW. WBL didn't deserve at least 5 that they received.

Like I said come on over and we'll look at the tape and you'll see this homer. One ref the one with the goofy mustache. The other ref was fair and did his job.

Again let me state that if it were the other way STW 11 WBL 3 penalties your fans would have been over the boards.

I'm starting to have fun with this. Thanks.

[24checking]

Everyone... Let's get this thread back to its origin. This was not intended to be a WBL/penalty taking thread. It's suppose to be about "Refs, Is it just me?"

If you want to drone on about WBL, then start a new post/thread. I responded to Melvin44 after his initial post about how bad a certain ref (with the funky mustache) was during the WBL/Stillwater game. I completely agreed with Melvin that this guy was and is a notorious bad ref. That's what this thread is about.

Let's voice our concern about bad OR good ref's are on this thread, and move the WBL issue to another thread. It needs to serve a purpose and hopefully someone (of authority) will be taking notice. We need to recoginze the good refs, as well as the bad. Maybe we can make a difference. Just my opinion...

[Melvin44]

You're right this topic is to try and make a difference and hold bad refs accountable and praise the good ones.

I'm sorry. Just trying defend our girls and have a little fun.


I'll be done with this topic. I promise.

[hockfan1980]

Sounds to me that officials need to take a lesson from here up north. Let em play. Don't call the ticky tack stuff. call the obvious. As for the stillwater white bear debate. our teem played both and thought both played fine aggressive hockey. white bear did take a stupid penalty and did feel stillwater tried to draw penaltys by jumping into the glass. never saw that before. refs up north don't fall for that crap. both teams seemed strong. city refs definitley call the ticky tack stuff and seem to be influenced by the fans and coaches. this is my opinion. let em play and the best team will win.

[inthestands]

And when teams go south, it changes yet again.

Everyone needs to be able to adjust to the game calling.

If you struggle with that, your teams will not be happy with the officiating.

[hockfan1980]

Would much rather see games up here. this isn't boys hockey and girls game would be better with up and down flow. ok to call the checking and slashing and some obvious holding but a little stick work is ok and stop the ticky tack interference calls. let the girls play and I believe it is much better. an opinion. of course it has to be called equal for both teams.

[inthestands]

Would much rather see games up here. this isn't boys hockey and girls game would be better with up and down flow. ok to call the checking and slashing and some obvious holding but a little stick work is ok and stop the ticky tack interference calls. let the girls play and I believe it is much better. an opinion.

Agreed.. Only problem is the MSHSL mandates certain parameters to officials and coaches. I'm not sure those directions are consistent across the state, but that would be nice.

I understand the game is called significantly different up north, as it compares to the cities, and then shifts once again going south.

Since it appears many officials from the north are working the state tourney, there must be something right with the game calling way up der..

[hockfan1980]

Would much rather see games up here. this isn't boys hockey and girls game would be better with up and down flow. ok to call the checking and slashing and some obvious holding but a little stick work is ok and stop the ticky tack interference calls. let the girls play and I believe it is much better. an opinion.

Agreed.. Only problem is the MSHSL mandates certain parameters to officials and coaches. I'm not sure those directions are consistent across the state, but that would be nice.

I understand the game is called significantly different up north, as it compares to the cities, and then shifts once again going south.

Since it appears many officials from the north are working the state tourney, there must be something right with the game calling way up der..

Ha! Thank you for your post. good luck to you.

[Maver2010]

I have watched my little 6 year old through her Senior year in highschool. She is 2 time honorable mention and after this year should be 2 time all conference and was 2008 state champ (single A). The problem is that ref clinics and all the glory that attracts refs relates to boy hockey. The transition to girl rules is not easy and isn't a priority to the refs.

After reading about 30 posts, my comment is that northern refs call the game pretty good, city refs call the game pretty good, but everyone in betweeen does a poor job.

The problem for the girls is that they play by so many different rules. No consistency at all. One day the other team gets away with murder, and the next day when they immatate, they lose the game on penalties. Very hard for high school girls to know what the rules really are.

It's an education issue and a ownership issue for the refs. Do they really want to be good girls refs?

[mnreferee1]

I love how people refer to "girls rules" and "boys rules". There is a checking classification and a no-check classification. All of the other rules are the same. The last time I checked, which was today, the tripping rule does not have a version that says "if the player is a girl...". In fact, the only place in the NFHS rule book(that is the governing body for High school sports,. Yes they put out their own rule book that is different from USA hockey. Not by much but different), also something I looked at today and I am guess that 99% of the people posting here have never read, that mentions anything about gender is section 41 Girls Hockey. It reads:

Art 1. There shall be no body checking. Body-checking is the intentional checking of an opponent in all areas of the ice. Body-checking occurs when a defensive player's objective is to gain possesion of the puck by separating the puck carrier from the puck with a body check. BODY CONTACT IS ALLOWED. Body contact occurs when both players, attempting to play the puck, establish body position and a lane to the puck.

a. A defensive player, when skating in the same direction as the puck, may legally hold a position on the ice to block and stop forward progression of the puck carrier.
b.Offensive and defensive players are allowed to establish body position in front of the net.
c. Angling is permitted. Angling is a legal defensive skill used to influence the puck carrier to a place where the the player must stop due to a defensive player's body position.
d. Incidental contact is permissible, and occurs when two players collide unintentionally.
e. When playing in a one-on-one situation, a defensive player is allowed to stop forward progress of the puck carrier by establishing position in the path of the puck carrier. Body contact is permitted. The defensive player cannot detain the puck carrier once forward progress has been stopped.

PENALTY: MINOR

USA hockey phrases it a little differently but it is generally the same rule but is not gender specific.

There are very few refs that have to transition to "girls hockey". Most of the games that are played in Minnesota are of the "no-check" classification. Most referees started in, and still do, no-check hockey.

I know this is not a thread on what constitutes a checking penalty but people keep referring to the differences between boys hockey and girls and the only difference, at least from a rules perspective, is checking.

Physical aggressive play is not illegal, body checking is. Body checking can sometimes be difficult to determine because as the rule states it is an INTENTIONAL act. judging someones intention can be a challenge at times. For the most part officials get it right. I can attest from personal experience there are times when I miss a check due to my position on the ice, where I may be looking at the time, tunnel vision on the puck, or covering/closing my eyes because some kid just skated by with their stick in my face .

I agree that some officials are better than others and all officials have an off night. Not all teams react to a lopsided game in the same way. I officiated a game earlier this year where the penalty count was around 12-3 against. The coach never complained about any of the penalties and was very appreciative of our effort during the game. On the other bench, read losing team, I received a lot of criticism about the three penalties that were called against his team.

The bottom line for me is that coaches, players, and parents watch the game with emotion. Referees should not. Most referees see two colors out there and call the game they see. I would no more want someone to try and judge my "agenda" anymore than I would approach a game trying to determine a players "agenda". Sometimes you give us way too much credit.

Thanks for listening and keep those cards and letters coming.

[hockeyfan21]

I think the biggest problems coaches have with referees are:

#1: Consistency. If you are going to call it tight, fine, call it tight on both sides and then the players can adjust. Some teams play very aggressive physically, but if the refs set the tone, well coached teams will adjust. Might take a few penalties to figure it out, but they will.

#2: Communication. If there is a call that the coaches have a problem with (questionable check, blatant missed call), good refs are willing to talk to the coaches. The best are willing to admit when they make a mistake. A ref two years ago made a horrendous call and disallowed a goal in the third period of a 0-0 game because of a quick whistle. Came right over and owned up to it and the coaches were okay with it, everyone makes mistakes. It gets out of hand when refs act infallible and refuse to talk.

#3: Spotlight Hogs. Some refs refuse to let the game decide itself. They want to be part of the action and you can see it from the drop of the puck. Usually arrogant and refuse to talk to coaches, act like they don't have to defend themselves or explain themselves.

I give ref's alot of credit; I wouldn't want to do their job and I appreciate that the majority are trying to do a good job. Tough to get good refs though when they are hammered night in and night out by coaches who are trying to get any advantage in a game (which they should be) and parents who have blinders on. Honestly, is there anyone more annoying, and biased than a hockey parent?

[inthestands]

There will never be a time when a sporting event takes place, and no one questions some call made during that contest. Human nature at it's best.

"Most" times the opinion is coming from an uneducated fan. By uneducated I mean, no officiating or coaching experience, and some never playing the game.

Officials that have children playing, are just fans at their kids games. You might notice them watching the games away from the general stands more often than not. There is a reason for that.

Girls hockey has the exact same set of rules that boys play by, outside of the checking clarification. Over time the range of those calls has gotten much better. IMHO

95% of the officials I know personally work hard to be professional, and do an outstanding job. Some are better at boys, some are better at girls, some are very good doing both. As with any level of responsibility, there are people working that don't have the right attitude. From what I've seen, those less than average officials are weeded out and either given lower level games, or asked to retire. Perfect system, no but it does work.

One reason some of these less than stellar game callers hang around might be tied to unreasonable behavior of the people complaining about their effort.

Not all complaints are unfounded, or with out substance. Many are. I don't envy the person, or committee that has the responsibility of weeding through complaints about hockey officials and then trying to do the right thing. What ever that may be.. It's similar to the coaching complaint about "my kid doesn't play enough" or "why didn't my child make the A team", and on and on..

[capitalist]

I went through "Ref school" at a clinic in D8. I assume all districts cover the same issues in their clinics, including the definition of checking.

mnreferee1 is absolutely right, all officials begin and learn their craft reffing 'no-check' hockey. It's not an excuse for being a crappy ref at the Girl's HS level.

[Melvin44]

I think the biggest problems coaches have with referees are:

#1: Consistency. If you are going to call it tight, fine, call it tight on both sides and then the players can adjust. Some teams play very aggressive physically, but if the refs set the tone, well coached teams will adjust. Might take a few penalties to figure it out, but they will.

#2: Communication. If there is a call that the coaches have a problem with (questionable check, blatant missed call), good refs are willing to talk to the coaches. The best are willing to admit when they make a mistake. A ref two years ago made a horrendous call and disallowed a goal in the third period of a 0-0 game because of a quick whistle. Came right over and owned up to it and the coaches were okay with it, everyone makes mistakes. It gets out of hand when refs act infallible and refuse to talk.

#3: Spotlight Hogs. Some refs refuse to let the game decide itself. They want to be part of the action and you can see it from the drop of the puck. Usually arrogant and refuse to talk to coaches, act like they don't have to defend themselves or explain themselves.

I give ref's alot of credit; I wouldn't want to do their job and I appreciate that the majority are trying to do a good job. Tough to get good refs though when they are hammered night in and night out by coaches who are trying to get any advantage in a game (which they should be) and parents who have blinders on. Honestly, is there anyone more annoying, and biased than a hockey parent?

Couldn't have said it better.