Opt up???

[HShockeywatcher]

Grand Rapids and Cloquet should make the move to single A where they belong due to enrollment. They do not have the numbers to keep up with the big AA schools any longer and will not have them for as far out as one can see. Let section 7 go to an all metro section besides Duluth East who can still compete with those teams.

Grand Rapids got 2nd at state 4 and 5 years ago. Cloquet went to state 2 years ago and 3 they were the section runner up. Hockey's different than other sports; in places like those, you don't need numbers.

I think this proves that you really don't know HS hockey at all.

There are many benefits to playing AA over A. Yes it is the same ice, but the talent and size aren't the same. The exposure isn't the same.

Even with the other sports you listed, the levels are all completely different. "State is state" is an ignorant statement to make. Go to the X on Wed night and go to the X on Thurs night. After that, if you can honestly tell me that "state is state" we might have to get you checked into a program somewhere. It isn't just about the bored and their opinions, there is a definite difference in the two. If you want to play with the best, go to AA. Every year there are some A programs that can skate with the AA, but year in, year out the AA will be the better talent and better teams.

I think this proves you don't read original posts at all.

The question was about whether AA is better or not, it was about whether a small class A school that can barely compete at A opting up to AA would help them out with recruiting basically because they're AA.

The answer is no. Most of what you said about AA/A is true, but it doesn't address his question. If a small school opted up, kids aren't going to start going there simply because it's AA. They may go if it has a good program with a good chance of going to state, but not leave a school that already has a shot to a school that doesn't simply because of class. Period.

[hipcheck]

Basically the only reason a school would opt up is that they feel they can compete with the best in the state. If not, stay in class A.

[Rocketwrister]

Thanks for your replies. It was honestly just a hypothetical question; but one I had to ask.

[northwoods oldtimer]

Grand Rapids got 2nd at state 4 and 5 years ago. Cloquet went to state 2 years ago and 3 they were the section runner up. Hockey's different than other sports; in places like those, you don't need numbers.

That is history. Neither program has a very healthy feeder program to sustain AA level due to economics and declining enrollments. The long term for both programs is to go to single A where they belong.

[Rocketwrister]

I totally disagree with your comments northwoods; I think both should stay where they are in "AA". Cloquet has a lot of kids in their youth programs and I'm sure GR does too.

[ubugme]

Question. What (if any) rewards is there for a small school to opt up?

Rocketwrister, the real answer to your question is "no," there is no benefit. Kids want to play hockey. Outside of these discussion boards, very few people care about class. Whether it be football, basketball, hockey, or any other sport, state is state.

I think this proves that you really don't know HS hockey at all.

There are many benefits to playing AA over A. Yes it is the same ice, but the talent and size aren't the same. The exposure isn't the same.

Even with the other sports you listed, the levels are all completely different. "State is state" is an ignorant statement to make. Go to the X on Wed night and go to the X on Thurs night. After that, if you can honestly tell me that "state is state" we might have to get you checked into a program somewhere. It isn't just about the bored and their opinions, there is a definite difference in the two. If you want to play with the best, go to AA. Every year there are some A programs that can skate with the AA, but year in, year out the AA will be the better talent and better teams.

I think this proves you don't read original posts at all.

The question was about whether AA is better or not, it was about whether a small class A school that can barely compete at A opting up to AA would help them out with recruiting basically because they're AA.

The answer is no. Most of what you said about AA/A is true, but it doesn't address his question.

It bugs me when people change the question from "benefit" to "better", and then chastise the poster who addressed the question correctly.

Morons bug me....

[northwoods oldtimer]

I totally disagree with your comments northwoods; I think both should stay where they are in "AA". Cloquet has a lot of kids in their youth programs and I'm sure GR does too.

You are not understanding the economic scope that is hurting both programs and keeping good athletes out of hockey which is two part leading to decline. Increased cost of hockey exceeds the cost of living in both programs so it becomes an expensive sport that is beyond the majority of budgets within the communities. The northland has no long term sustainable employment. How do you expect both of these programs to continue to compete at this AA level when there is no economic draw to get young families into the communities (loss of enrollment)? AA is purely a numbers game, when communities lose quality standard of living they can no longer sustain winning programs. Look at Greenway of Coleraine which is just further ahead on that curve of decline.

[ubugme]

AA is purely a numbers game, when communities lose quality standard of living they can no longer sustain winning programs. Look at Greenway of Coleraine which is just further ahead on that curve of decline.

Poppycock. Codswallop. Bunk.

It bugs me that losers have this mentality.

Enrollment has little to do with success. All you need are enough kids who want to pay the price to be good. And thats price is ice time, structured or otherwise.

Roseau and Warroad have the numbers, your telling me Rapids and Cloquet don't?

[goldy313]

You could easily say at least 50% of the teams in AA don't have the feeder programs to compete. This is Winona's first time making the section semi finals in over 50 years for petes sake. Places like Grand Rapids and Cloquet can't win every year but neither do places like Eden Prairie or Wayzata so do GR and Cloquet go the poor me route like Hibbing and go try and beat up on the teams that really can't compete? Or worse just go trophy hunting like St Thomas and Warroad who can compete year in and year out?

[elliott70]

AA is purely a numbers game, when communities lose quality standard of living they can no longer sustain winning programs. Look at Greenway of Coleraine which is just further ahead on that curve of decline.

Poppycock. Codswallop. Bunk.

It bugs me that losers have this mentality.

Enrollment has little to do with success. All you need are enough kids who want to pay the price to be good. And thats price is ice time, structured or otherwise.

Roseau and Warroad have the numbers, your telling me Rapids and Cloquet don't?

Roseau and Warroad do not have the numbers.
Warroad has a strong group of srs and jrs this year.
Their youth program is struggling.
Roseau has a 'different' program. Their rinks are always open, they have guys that coach very well that are not even the coaches, they have a community that is 100% behind them, on and on....
BUT they do not have the numbers so when their kids are down in athletic ability they are down - this year's peewees for example (may turn it around by HS but they are down)...

[northwoods oldtimer]

Poppycock. Codswallop. Bunk.

It bugs me that losers have this mentality.

Enrollment has little to do with success. All you need are enough kids who want to pay the price to be good. And thats price is ice time, structured or otherwise.

Roseau and Warroad have the numbers, your telling me Rapids and Cloquet don't?

First off you have absolutely no right to call me a loser as I am not anything of the sort. I pay my fair share of the taxes, have served my country honorably, have raised a family of 5 and have worked every day of my adult life making ends meet while never once asking the government for a hand out. So that said here it is again.
Vast difference in the communities that you mention. If you read my post it comes down to 2 key things in Cloquet and Grand Rapids and one of the 2 big deterrents is COST$$ Families in Cloquet and GR bare the brunt of high cost of hockey which in turn keeps your better athletes that remain out of the sport. Roseau program has enormous city and community support, which is 100%, that is why the kids skate the North Rink anytime they wish. Grand Rapids and Cloquet DO NOT get community support, the parent pay dearly out of pocket for hockey and thus you lose talented athletes to other sports. Anytime those kids step on City ice they pay for it. Warroad gets kids on scholarship money that helps their program immensely and the community supports the kids with open ice programs. A $1000.00 dollars is a lot of money to many families in both of these communities to have to pony up for a sport just to play. I know that sounds small to folks in the metro but it is a reality in northern minnesota. Roseau and Rapids we are talking apples and oranges in comparison with regard to athletes, community involvement and support and the success of both programs is clear who is getting the job done.
Second point GR has lost kids to other programs strictly due to lack of employment that is a fact and they are playing in the metro. Facts are facts sir, you can name call and hurl insults all you want but reality is what it is.

[warriors41]

AA is purely a numbers game, when communities lose quality standard of living they can no longer sustain winning programs. Look at Greenway of Coleraine which is just further ahead on that curve of decline.

Poppycock. Codswallop. Bunk.

It bugs me that losers have this mentality.

Enrollment has little to do with success. All you need are enough kids who want to pay the price to be good. And thats price is ice time, structured or otherwise.

Roseau and Warroad have the numbers, your telling me Rapids and Cloquet don't?

Roseau and Warroad both have long term sustainable places of employment. Granted, both Marvin's and Polaris aren't doing great right now, they will most likely recover so that parents will be able to afford the cost of hockey for their children. I think what northwoods was trying to say is that other places such as grand rapids and cloquet don't have large scale places of employment such as these two towns do.

[northwoods oldtimer]

Thanks warrior for setting it straight. I know it is tough for some to understand the circumstances in Northern Minnesota but you are 100% correct and thanks to our fine communist friend from da range who made sure the 700 employee Marvin plant went to North Dakota this Grand Rapids area will remain a bedroom community.

[MrBoDangles]

I was told hockey doesn't cost a dime in Roseau.

[ubugme]

Mr. Oldtimer,

I was referring to the loser mentality of we're not big enough. It wasn't personal, and it bugs me you took as such. My apologies.

Grand Rapids a bedroom community? Besides Wal-mart , the UPM paper mill, MP&L, tourism, etc. puts Rapids way beyond a bedroom community. They are all long term sustainable employers. Rapids might not go to state as much as their accustom, but they certainly can provide enough talent to remain more than competitive in AA for the foreseeable future.

[EREmpireStrikesBack]

I think this proves you don't read original posts at all.

The question was about whether AA is better or not, it was about whether a small class A school that can barely compete at A opting up to AA would help them out with recruiting basically because they're AA.

The answer is no. Most of what you said about AA/A is true, but it doesn't address his question. If a small school opted up, kids aren't going to start going there simply because it's AA. They may go if it has a good program with a good chance of going to state, but not leave a school that already has a shot to a school that doesn't simply because of class. Period.

Make up your mind! I read the posts, it seems like you can't figure out what you are going to talk about.

First off, recruiting is illegal. So why did you mention that?

I was responding to what you said about the different between A & AA which has nothing to do with his original question. So YOU are the one who went away from his question and started to talk about talent, size, etc.

As far as making a difference for the players if they were going to choose between A & AA, it's very much about each individual player. I don't think you can say for sure that it would make a difference or not because not every player is looking for the same thing. Some want exposure, some competition, some knowing they are playing against the best, some to play with their friends, some to be part of a team... etc. A & AA might make a difference for some and have absolutely no bearing on others.

Regardless, your post didn't address it at all and then you try and tell me that I was off topic. Take the time to check your stuff before you go spouting your mouth.

[ubugme]

Regardless, your post didn't address it at all and then you try and tell me that I was off topic. Take the time to check your stuff before you go spouting your mouth.

Whats funny Mr. ERE, is that I posted that I agreed with you that he's the one who has it backwards, he pm'd me thanking me for agreeing with him.

My apologies for sounding like him, but when you quote him, its inevitable...

Doesn't that bug you?

[EREmpireStrikesBack]

[canttouchthis]

AA is better plain and simple. And I dont mean that to be a jerk its just the numbers. A" has good players obviously but they dont have the depth of AA programs because the numbers difference. Another thing to think about is the community. If the city is getting older that usually means the program numbers are down. Every program goes through this. Once More younger families move in then the community gets more and more kids. Its just a cycle. This is Minnesota High school hockey you cant be good for 20 years straight (you cant buy a team like the yankees) there will be down years

[karl(east)]

Oldtimer, when you say Cloquet and Rapids will end up in A, what timeframe are you talking about? In the next few years? 5 years? 10? More?

The demographic/economic trends certainly aren't good, so I can understand that. But Rapids did practically nothing in the 2-class system from 92-05, yet stayed in AA. I understand things have probably gotten worse over time, but inertia and pride can be strong factors.

And so long as Dave Esse is at the helm in Cloquet, I doubt they're going anywhere. Even with the well as dry as it's been the past two years, they've still been able to pull off a few huge upsets and put a good scare into the elite teams.

I understand it might happen at some point, but it'd be a travesty to have one northern team in 7AA.

[northwoods oldtimer]

Oldtimer, when you say Cloquet and Rapids will end up in A, what timeframe are you talking about? In the next few years? 5 years? 10? More?

Boy would I love to see Cloquet and Grand Rapids remain viable AA programs well into the future. However forecasting out I would have to say 5 years tops.

[karl(east)]

Oldtimer, when you say Cloquet and Rapids will end up in A, what timeframe are you talking about? In the next few years? 5 years? 10? More?

Boy would I love to see Cloquet and Grand Rapids remain viable AA programs well into the future. However forecasting out I would have to say 5 years tops.

Okay. I know the Cloquet Bantam/PWA teams are decent right now, and the Rapids Bantam As are very strong...so you'd see these next few years as their last real push at AA?

[ubugme]

I think northwoods oldtimer is just taking this Flake loss way too hard. His minds not right. Its that damn ironhead ego I tell ya... it bugs me...

Just a couple average years for Rapids n.o., not bad ones. Have a couple beers and lie down.

[northwoods oldtimer]

Okay. I know the Cloquet Bantam/PWA teams are decent right now, and the Rapids Bantam As are very strong...so you'd see these next few years as their last real push at AA?

Karl,
There is one bit of a 'ray of hope' in that the UPM plant and also the Mn Power and Light plant will change employee demographic with an aging staff. I think ISD 318 will turn over staff also. This might buffer some of the attrition in losing young families in the next decade. Cross your fingers. I would think at some point in the next 5 years Hermantown would have to move to AA. Does anyone have their elementary enrollment figures? Prior to our economic implosion they appeared to be increasing population figures.

The Forest Lake loss is a key indication of both of my points from the previous posts. Forest Lake kids have the disposable income to play the game as it is today Grand Rapids and Cloquet do not.

[HShockeywatcher]

I think this proves you don't read original posts at all.

The question was about whether AA is better or not, it was about whether a small class A school that can barely compete at A opting up to AA would help them out with recruiting basically because they're AA.

The answer is no. Most of what you said about AA/A is true, but it doesn't address his question. If a small school opted up, kids aren't going to start going there simply because it's AA. They may go if it has a good program with a good chance of going to state, but not leave a school that already has a shot to a school that doesn't simply because of class. Period.

Make up your mind! I read the posts, it seems like you can't figure out what you are going to talk about.

First off, recruiting is illegal. So why did you mention that?

I was responding to what you said about the different between A & AA which has nothing to do with his original question. So YOU are the one who went away from his question and started to talk about talent, size, etc.

As far as making a difference for the players if they were going to choose between A & AA, it's very much about each individual player. I don't think you can say for sure that it would make a difference or not because not every player is looking for the same thing. Some want exposure, some competition, some knowing they are playing against the best, some to play with their friends, some to be part of a team... etc. A & AA might make a difference for some and have absolutely no bearing on others.

Regardless, your post didn't address it at all and then you try and tell me that I was off topic. Take the time to check your stuff before you go spouting your mouth.

Recruiting can't be illegal. If it were, almost all teams in the state would be in violation. What is illegal is active recruiting by individuals, which isn't what I was talking about.

Yes, I did thank you. I was talking about the benefits and you commented on changing the wording, which I didn't do. But okay, whatever you say.

Thanks warrior for setting it straight. I know it is tough for some to understand the circumstances in Northern Minnesota but you are 100% correct and thanks to our fine communist friend from da range who made sure the 700 employee Marvin plant went to North Dakota this Grand Rapids area will remain a bedroom community.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but there's this relatively big city pretty near Cloquet that has plenty of jobs. Additionally, many of the inhabitants of the Cloquet city you speak of have automobiles.

I can't speak for Grand Rapids, but from everything I've heard from people that live there about hockey is that it's big and there's no way they'd associate themselves with the JV class. Doubt it'll happen.